How fast *could* a human drive?

[Disastrous]

I don't mean land speed record type stuff. I mean round a circuit.

Let's say Monaco, as it's a slow, twisty circuit…and let's assume an F1 car capable of unlimited speed with unlimited downforce.

How fast could a human drive it before the speed overtook their reaction times?

[RobM77]

Disastrous said:

I don't mean land speed record type stuff. I mean round a circuit.

Let's say Monaco, as it's a slow, twisty circuit…and let's assume an F1 car capable of unlimited speed with unlimited downforce.

How fast could a human drive it before the speed overtook their reaction times?

I would have thought that g force would get in the way before that - F1 cars peak at about 4 to 5g at the moment I think in braking and cornering. We're already at the point where substantial training is required for neck muscles etc. Much more lateral g force - say for example 7 or 8 and humans would struggle (don't forget we can't compare this with fighter jets, because the g is in the other direction - the issue with planes is blackout or redout - with cars we're talking pure muscle to hold the head upright and operate the controls properly). In terms of reaction times, I suppose that would depend how stable the car is, so whether they'd be controlling a drift or just pointing where the car went (very different requirements) and don't forget, car control in terms of drifting etc is not down to reaction times, moreso prediction times. Without wishing to dodge the question though, in terms of just being able to steer around the course, I suppose you could take the shortest straight at Monaco and work out the speed to negotiate it in, say, 0.5 seconds (react and move the wheel for the previous and next bend), but I expect you'd get such a high speed that the acceleration required to sustain that, either laterally or longitudinally before and after corners, would be way beyond the g capability of the human body.

[storminnorman]

Not just reaction times but being able to handle the G-forces. I have read before that when ground effect really took off in F1, plenty of drivers started to struggle with the cornering speeds. I think the same happened in Champcars where they were doing 230+MPH on ovals in the early 2000s

[Rawwr]

Disastrous said:

unlimited speed with unlimited downforce

Then your own limit is the responsiveness of the brain and the reaction time of the muscles. Assuming you went lap after lap, progressively getting quicker, letting muscle memory develop, the limit would be shockingly high...

...unless of course you're not accounting for passing out due to the g-force in acceleration, braking and cornering. Possibly somewhere around 6G things would get awkward.

[HustleRussell]

As above, there is only so much more G force that the human body can withstand before pressure suits and breathing apparatus are required!

[Rawwr]

Or I could take you on my daily commute to work in my Fiesta and show you?

[storminnorman]

Group B is a good example of how drivers struggled with reaction times. The cars were becoming far too fast for courses with plentiful corners and other features (although that was not the sole cause of it's downfall)

[Disastrous]

Rawwr said:

Disastrous said:

unlimited speed with unlimited downforce

Then your own limit is the responsiveness of the brain and the reaction time of the muscles. Assuming you went lap after lap, progressively getting quicker, letting muscle memory develop, the limit would be shockingly high...

...unless of course you're not accounting for passing out due to the g-force in acceleration, braking and cornering. Possibly somewhere around 6G things would get awkward.

I hadn't considered cornering G. In my "Car of the Future", the driver's head is restrained in the cockpit or something so it's less of an issue.


So, additional questions:

1) How fast before a well-trained athlete blacked out?

2) Assuming we fitted an external device to pressurise the driver's bloodstream, how fast before their brain couldn't cope with processing the info any more?

Average speed of say, what?

[Rawwr]

Disastrous said:

I hadn't considered cornering G. In my "Car of the Future", the driver's head is restrained in the cockpit or something so it's less of an issue.


So, additional questions:

1) How fast before a well-trained athlete blacked out?

2) Assuming we fitted an external device to pressurise the driver's bloodstream, how fast before their brain couldn't cope with processing the info any more?

Average speed of say, what?

This has gone from hypothetical interest to just plain crazy.

[RobM77]

Disastrous said:

Rawwr said:

Disastrous said:

unlimited speed with unlimited downforce

Then your own limit is the responsiveness of the brain and the reaction time of the muscles. Assuming you went lap after lap, progressively getting quicker, letting muscle memory develop, the limit would be shockingly high...

...unless of course you're not accounting for passing out due to the g-force in acceleration, braking and cornering. Possibly somewhere around 6G things would get awkward.

I hadn't considered cornering G. In my "Car of the Future", the driver's head is restrained in the cockpit or something so it's less of an issue.


So, additional questions:

1) How fast before a well-trained athlete blacked out?

2) Assuming we fitted an external device to pressurise the driver's bloodstream, how fast before their brain couldn't cope with processing the info any more?

Average speed of say, what?

What about controlling the car though? Legs and arms are also subject to the g force. Even in lesser formulae at circa 3g I used to rest my legs on the side of the car when I got tired and I wasn't using them. You can't operate the pedals properly in that position. I shouldn't image over 5g would be very pleasant at all.

I did have an article in a magazine called 'ultimate F1' where they discussed this. The head would certainly need to be restrained if F1 cars cornered much quicker - and the legs and arms are a big problem. You'd also need two chassis or something very special going on there with that sort of downforce as you hit bumps etc.

[DeolTheBeast]

Rawwr said:

Disastrous said:

I hadn't considered cornering G. In my "Car of the Future", the driver's head is restrained in the cockpit or something so it's less of an issue.


So, additional questions:

1) How fast before a well-trained athlete blacked out?

2) Assuming we fitted an external device to pressurise the driver's bloodstream, how fast before their brain couldn't cope with processing the info any more?

Average speed of say, what?

This has gone from hypothetical interest to just plain crazy.

[Disastrous]

RobM77 said:

Disastrous said:

Rawwr said:

Disastrous said:

unlimited speed with unlimited downforce

Then your own limit is the responsiveness of the brain and the reaction time of the muscles. Assuming you went lap after lap, progressively getting quicker, letting muscle memory develop, the limit would be shockingly high...

...unless of course you're not accounting for passing out due to the g-force in acceleration, braking and cornering. Possibly somewhere around 6G things would get awkward.

I hadn't considered cornering G. In my "Car of the Future", the driver's head is restrained in the cockpit or something so it's less of an issue.


So, additional questions:

1) How fast before a well-trained athlete blacked out?

2) Assuming we fitted an external device to pressurise the driver's bloodstream, how fast before their brain couldn't cope with processing the info any more?

Average speed of say, what?

What about controlling the car though? Legs and arms are also subject to the g force. Even in lesser formulae at circa 3g I used to rest my legs on the side of the car when I got tired and I wasn't using them. You can't operate the pedals properly in that position. I shouldn't image over 5g would be very pleasant at all.

I did have an article in a magazine called 'ultimate F1' where they discussed this. The head would certainly need to be restrained if F1 cars cornered much quicker - and the legs and arms are a big problem. You'd also need two chassis or something very special going on there with that sort of downforce as you hit bumps etc.

Can we assume that they have solved this problem somehow?

And if not, and we conclude that we'd black out before the brain lost the ability to catch up, how fast would that be?

[J4CKO]

I would Like to take the human out of the equation, tell the engineers here is your massive budget, do your best and create an autonomous vehicle to lap a circuit as fast as possible using whatever technology is available, skirts, downforce fans, turbos, rockets ?, wacky fuels etc etc, all the fun stuff that gets banned because of the drivers safety. Only stipulation is it has to be on the tarmac, not flying.

So, the nurburgring, how fast could something like that get round ?

[RobM77]

Disastrous said:

RobM77 said:

Disastrous said:

Rawwr said:

Disastrous said:

unlimited speed with unlimited downforce

Then your own limit is the responsiveness of the brain and the reaction time of the muscles. Assuming you went lap after lap, progressively getting quicker, letting muscle memory develop, the limit would be shockingly high...

...unless of course you're not accounting for passing out due to the g-force in acceleration, braking and cornering. Possibly somewhere around 6G things would get awkward.

I hadn't considered cornering G. In my "Car of the Future", the driver's head is restrained in the cockpit or something so it's less of an issue.


So, additional questions:

1) How fast before a well-trained athlete blacked out?

2) Assuming we fitted an external device to pressurise the driver's bloodstream, how fast before their brain couldn't cope with processing the info any more?

Average speed of say, what?

What about controlling the car though? Legs and arms are also subject to the g force. Even in lesser formulae at circa 3g I used to rest my legs on the side of the car when I got tired and I wasn't using them. You can't operate the pedals properly in that position. I shouldn't image over 5g would be very pleasant at all.

I did have an article in a magazine called 'ultimate F1' where they discussed this. The head would certainly need to be restrained if F1 cars cornered much quicker - and the legs and arms are a big problem. You'd also need two chassis or something very special going on there with that sort of downforce as you hit bumps etc.

Can we assume that they have solved this problem somehow?

And if not, and we conclude that we'd black out before the brain lost the ability to catch up, how fast would that be?

I don't know whether there's much data on lateral g. Blackout occurs because the g force is preventing the blood from going up to the brain. With lateral g you'd have blood moving from one side of the brain to the other, so I guess you could get some weird effects instead of an actual blackout, or perhaps you would blackout if sufficient areas were 'dried out'.

From thinking some rough figures in my head, I think physiological limits would occur before reactionary control based ones.

[so called]

Didnt Martin Donnelley pass out due to G-force.
Not good and didn't another driver get killed at the same corner 2 days later in the race ?
Brings the emotions flooding back seeing his broken body lying on the track.
How he survived is amazing.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1hSF6_4UDTo&deskt...

[Dave Hedgehog]

even if you are restrained you will pass out as the G load rises as all the blood comes out of your noggin

i have no doubts they could design a car / tyres that was beyond the physical limitations of a human to drive

[Iklwa]

1000,000,000 miles an hour, hypothetically.

[Iklwa]

More seriously though, lets take the effect of G-Force out of the equation altogether (after all, it's only something made up by a guy who had an apple fall on his head).

I would guesstimate that for Monaco a 130MPH average speed would be the absolute limit of human reaction times, given that around 100MPH is the current average speed on a lap (I think).

Now, if we used hamsters, this could go up significantly, as they have incredible reaction times (ever tried to pull your finger away before one bites it? not going to happen).

[mmm-five]

You could get rid of the G argument completely if you took the driver out of the cockpit completely.

Then they could drive with 100g on the car from the safety of a poolside cabana in Acapulco.

[marksx]

mmm-five said:

You could get rid of the G argument completely if you took the driver out of the cockpit completely.

Then they could drive with 100g on the car from the safety of a poolside cabana in Acapulco.

Formula 1 driver of the future: