Cars & Power - Young Drivers
Discussion
Hi Folks
I purchased a car for my son in June this year and he's recently passed his test (a week ago to be precise).
Now that he has passed his test, I've heard some local comments that the car is 'too fast' for a young lad that's just passed his test! It's a 1.4 Turbo with 125bhp. However, you can do a 100mph+ in just about anything these days regardless if it's fitted with a 1.0/1.2 or 1.6. It's just the rate at which it gets there that makes the difference.
My concern was, that when he decides to overtake (with little experiencce) he could get caught out with a less powerful car (not that 125bhp is substantial) by misjudging distance v acceleration etc, so I've had a kind of philosophy that a more powerful car is a safer car. Better brakes, wider tyres etc, all contributing to something more capable if he's going to hoon it when out of my sight.
I've discussed this with the wife, and she sort of agrees, but she asked if giving him the more powerful car encourages him to drive it faster? That's not my objective obviously, but if he's going to drive fast he'll do it anyway right?
I've obviously discussed this with him and threatened all sorts anyway if he's spotted doing anthing out of the norm, but the debate is I guess, what is the 'safer' approach, more powerful = safer or I'm a fool, safer = should have got a 1.0 Fiesta?
I purchased a car for my son in June this year and he's recently passed his test (a week ago to be precise).
Now that he has passed his test, I've heard some local comments that the car is 'too fast' for a young lad that's just passed his test! It's a 1.4 Turbo with 125bhp. However, you can do a 100mph+ in just about anything these days regardless if it's fitted with a 1.0/1.2 or 1.6. It's just the rate at which it gets there that makes the difference.
My concern was, that when he decides to overtake (with little experiencce) he could get caught out with a less powerful car (not that 125bhp is substantial) by misjudging distance v acceleration etc, so I've had a kind of philosophy that a more powerful car is a safer car. Better brakes, wider tyres etc, all contributing to something more capable if he's going to hoon it when out of my sight.
I've discussed this with the wife, and she sort of agrees, but she asked if giving him the more powerful car encourages him to drive it faster? That's not my objective obviously, but if he's going to drive fast he'll do it anyway right?
I've obviously discussed this with him and threatened all sorts anyway if he's spotted doing anthing out of the norm, but the debate is I guess, what is the 'safer' approach, more powerful = safer or I'm a fool, safer = should have got a 1.0 Fiesta?
He has probably got more chance of crashing during an overtake with a 1.0 fiesta. 125BHP isn't that much. I think it's fine for a first car. How long till he hears about the wonders of mapping though………..
ETA personally I drive high power cars not because I want to drive everywhere at 150mph but because it makes overtaking sooooo much safer.
ETA personally I drive high power cars not because I want to drive everywhere at 150mph but because it makes overtaking sooooo much safer.
You can do stupid, fatal things with any car. Accelerate into death in a powerful car, or dawdle into it in a slow one.
Forget about the car (within reason) and see what you can do about his attitudes and experience instead. Probably too soon for IAM etc, without experience under his belt, but worth considering - and plenty other options out there.
Forget about the car (within reason) and see what you can do about his attitudes and experience instead. Probably too soon for IAM etc, without experience under his belt, but worth considering - and plenty other options out there.
Jesus christ I had 240bhp when I was 18 and it made me damned better driver than I was in my 1.4L 16V Corsa (quick by the 17 year old standards of the day). My brain at the time had a calibrated "better slow down now" at around 120mph indicated. In my 1.4L Corsa it was stupid and took forever, in my T5 it took less time and was in a car far more capable of doing it. I can honestly say I took less risks in the more powerful car.
Any power is plenty to get yourself into and out of trouble with imo. Putting younger drivers in underpowered cars (relative to other traffic) won't make them safer, but it can give them less chance to make a hash of things - slower speeds means less chance of running out of grip.
Encourage him to improve his driving, teach him how to use whatever power he's got safely and enjoy driving.
Encourage him to improve his driving, teach him how to use whatever power he's got safely and enjoy driving.
It's a difficult situation really, at his age (assuming he's 17 - 18 here) he's not really in the 'listen to adults' stage, and like every man will assume he is the best driver in the world.
Until he scares himself, or perhaps a friend of his has a serious accident, the reality that if you mess about a lot you will bin it won't really sink in.
If he started doing IAM courses etc. it may just serve to inflate his ego more so that he's going faster as and when he does bin it.
Winter's coming up, so at least he'll get to have his fun at 20mph instead of 80! Whenever it does first snow this year, I'd suggest taking him to an empty car park (as if he won't be there already) and just pointing out how long it takes to stop and how little steering you have. It may help avoid a silly shunt from assuming he'll always have plenty of grip...
My first car had 65bhp and I still managed to bin it in 6 months. Interestingly, the following 75bhp and then 400bhp and 220bhp cars haven't been crashed so far, hopefully lesson learned!
EDIT:
Alternatively, fix him up with a nervous girlfriend, the constant nagging and panicing will slow him right down!
Until he scares himself, or perhaps a friend of his has a serious accident, the reality that if you mess about a lot you will bin it won't really sink in.
If he started doing IAM courses etc. it may just serve to inflate his ego more so that he's going faster as and when he does bin it.
Winter's coming up, so at least he'll get to have his fun at 20mph instead of 80! Whenever it does first snow this year, I'd suggest taking him to an empty car park (as if he won't be there already) and just pointing out how long it takes to stop and how little steering you have. It may help avoid a silly shunt from assuming he'll always have plenty of grip...
My first car had 65bhp and I still managed to bin it in 6 months. Interestingly, the following 75bhp and then 400bhp and 220bhp cars haven't been crashed so far, hopefully lesson learned!
EDIT:
Alternatively, fix him up with a nervous girlfriend, the constant nagging and panicing will slow him right down!
Edited by SturdyHSV on Friday 6th December 13:08
I find I drive more of a t
t the slower the car when I had a 1.25 Fiesta I felt the need to trash the thing everywhere due to the lack of power and often ended up travelling faster than I should of been.
I think 125bhp is probably a happy medium to be honest I had a 1.4 105 ZR at 18 and that felt about right at the time to me then I moved onto a 172 Cup at 19 and now a 220bhp Golf at 20.
The only car I have ever crashed was my Mini with about 35bhp...
t the slower the car when I had a 1.25 Fiesta I felt the need to trash the thing everywhere due to the lack of power and often ended up travelling faster than I should of been.I think 125bhp is probably a happy medium to be honest I had a 1.4 105 ZR at 18 and that felt about right at the time to me then I moved onto a 172 Cup at 19 and now a 220bhp Golf at 20.
The only car I have ever crashed was my Mini with about 35bhp...
(Before I start, I'm using 0-60 times because it's the easiest measure of legal performance)
I have always argued the opposite to those above. My first car of two years was a 0.95 litre saxo with a 0-60 of 16 seconds... you had to be READY and seriously prepared if you wanted to overtake anything. I feel it really helped me learn to anticipate and how to use a car correctly not relying on power to get me out of trouble. You couldn't risk an overtake on a road you didn't know; you learn how to keep momentum and drive efficiently. Additionally you can also rag the tits off the car and still not be going very fast - you learn a lot about limits of handling and performance. Even though I was a car nut before 17 I didn't realise 'understeer' was a thing until a few weeks after passing my test on a greasy round-a-bout. Fortunately my bicycle tyres let go at I'd guess 20mph with absolutely no consequences at all, I just slowed, got grip, and carried on my way... with bigger tyres and more performance, I'd probably have had a decent sized crash later in the year thanks to no handling awareness.
Then when I upgraded to a 106 GTi with a 0-60 of about 7 seconds (despite what the official figures claim) I was less inclined to perform risky overtakes even though I now had the power. I found I seemed to drive a lot more smoothly than friend's who'd jumped in at the deep end and I seemed to be able to get better MPG while maintaining a similar pace than when friends drove who relied on power and brakes. (I was also made by my parents to do a skid pan day before I bought the car which was very useful and highly recommended to any parent with kids learning to drive... or anyone at all for that matter).
Fast forward seven more years to my kit car which will do 0-60 in 3.6 seconds and the importance of driving smoothly cannot be overstated. I firmly believe the basics were drilled in to me by the Citroen Saxo first all those years ago.
So from my point of view, my children will have safe cars that will struggle to pull the skin off of a rice pudding - then when they are ready they can climb the ladder as high as they like and not have to rely on power. Additionally (to date) I have never had a crash and really do feel this is in a large part due to my parents forcing me to take a st car for my first.
I have always argued the opposite to those above. My first car of two years was a 0.95 litre saxo with a 0-60 of 16 seconds... you had to be READY and seriously prepared if you wanted to overtake anything. I feel it really helped me learn to anticipate and how to use a car correctly not relying on power to get me out of trouble. You couldn't risk an overtake on a road you didn't know; you learn how to keep momentum and drive efficiently. Additionally you can also rag the tits off the car and still not be going very fast - you learn a lot about limits of handling and performance. Even though I was a car nut before 17 I didn't realise 'understeer' was a thing until a few weeks after passing my test on a greasy round-a-bout. Fortunately my bicycle tyres let go at I'd guess 20mph with absolutely no consequences at all, I just slowed, got grip, and carried on my way... with bigger tyres and more performance, I'd probably have had a decent sized crash later in the year thanks to no handling awareness.
Then when I upgraded to a 106 GTi with a 0-60 of about 7 seconds (despite what the official figures claim) I was less inclined to perform risky overtakes even though I now had the power. I found I seemed to drive a lot more smoothly than friend's who'd jumped in at the deep end and I seemed to be able to get better MPG while maintaining a similar pace than when friends drove who relied on power and brakes. (I was also made by my parents to do a skid pan day before I bought the car which was very useful and highly recommended to any parent with kids learning to drive... or anyone at all for that matter).
Fast forward seven more years to my kit car which will do 0-60 in 3.6 seconds and the importance of driving smoothly cannot be overstated. I firmly believe the basics were drilled in to me by the Citroen Saxo first all those years ago.
So from my point of view, my children will have safe cars that will struggle to pull the skin off of a rice pudding - then when they are ready they can climb the ladder as high as they like and not have to rely on power. Additionally (to date) I have never had a crash and really do feel this is in a large part due to my parents forcing me to take a s
t car for my first.Edited by Freddy88FM on Friday 6th December 13:13
Edited by Freddy88FM on Friday 6th December 13:31
SturdyHSV said:
It's a difficult situation really, at his age (assuming he's 17 - 18 here) he's not really in the 'listen to adults' stage, and like every man will assume he is the best driver in the world.
This sounds like a throwaway line but there may be some inescapable truth to it; I saw a recent study that suggested young adults are incapable of making sufficiently good judgements about risk in regard to death or other unpleasant outcomes at that age, because their brains simply haven't developed enough.SturdyHSV said:
If he started doing IAM courses etc. it may just serve to inflate his ego more so that he's going faster as and when he does bin it.
It's possible - but don't underestimate his ability to find that confidence independently.Whereas DSA is basically about trying to drive how someone tells you to drive, IAM is supposed to be about letting him have the authority whilst getting feedback on whether what he's doing is good or bad. So, not 'slow down through here', but 'is this a decent speed to be doing here?'. I'll add that it doesn't always work.
Krikkit said:
Any power is plenty to get yourself into and out of trouble with imo. Putting younger drivers in underpowered cars (relative to other traffic) won't make them safer, but it can give them less chance to make a hash of things - slower speeds means less chance of running out of grip.
Encourage him to improve his driving, teach him how to use whatever power he's got safely and enjoy driving.
^ This.Encourage him to improve his driving, teach him how to use whatever power he's got safely and enjoy driving.
More power and wider tyres etc just means that on B roads he can achieve higher speeds between corners and carry more speed in to them too.
Unless he's an extraordinary young male he's probably going to drive to (and eventually beyond) the limits of whatever he's got. Bigger engine, wider tyres and better brakes equals a harder crash or finishing further into some farmer's field.
The reality is however that unless his education continues he's going to have the crash anyway, and limiting the size of the crash is treating the symptom rather than the cause.
He needs to be taught all the usual lessons:
1) What if you meet someone driving like you coming the other way?
2) Young reactions ARE NOT a substitute for experience - a superior driver uses his superior judgement to avoid having to rely on his superior skill etc
3) You cannot rely on the road surface conditions to remain constant
etc etc
It all depends on if you think he is sensible as well really maybe get him to do the pass plus and extra driver training as well 
My mate at Uni was driving a 4.2 Supercharged Range from the age of 18 and never had one crash and was very sensible. Yet I remember at school one 17yr old lad got through two MG ZR 160's in the space of 4 months...
My mate at Uni was driving a 4.2 Supercharged Range from the age of 18 and never had one crash and was very sensible. Yet I remember at school one 17yr old lad got through two MG ZR 160's in the space of 4 months...
I had a 1.0 Corsa as my first car and drove like a hooligan, although I did listen to the advice given to me by adults I must have thought I was invinceable or something - I remember driving through width restrictions where you had to snake around a contra flow just before at 30+ mph.
I didn't crash it, but had it of been any quicker I think I probably would have.
It wasn't until I'd upgraded to something more power (325i) and had an accident (fortunately no one else was involved) that I learnt to respect my limitations behind the wheel.
I guess what I am eluding to is everyone is different. If your son is the opposite to me then you'll be fine.
I didn't crash it, but had it of been any quicker I think I probably would have.
It wasn't until I'd upgraded to something more power (325i) and had an accident (fortunately no one else was involved) that I learnt to respect my limitations behind the wheel.
I guess what I am eluding to is everyone is different. If your son is the opposite to me then you'll be fine.
thatdude said:
What may catch him out is the lack of power for overtaking;
Is this what catches out most young drivers?
What will probaly catch him out is a lack of experience of car control and a feel for where the limits are. That or an excess of testosterone that results in poor judgement.
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