Car Control, what?
Discussion
So, I only post this as a young friend recently wrote off his car, exceeding both his and the cars limits... To be fair the the cars limits were higher it was his lack of car control that resulted in the written off motor. I am thankful he walked away and was OK.
This may have been highly debated here before, I dunno, but I feel the need to raise it...
Our system requires us to pass a driving test if we want to drive a car on the road. The lessons required to pass this test do what it says on the box, pass the test. What this doesn't do is teach you car control. It doesn't teach you anything about car dynamics, or how the damn thing underneath you works.
It scares the crap out of me when I get 19 year old females in clio's tailgating me at 80mph and I know they haven't got a fecking clue what they'd do if I braked hard, they did the same, then lost it..... Ok, apologies for the female thing, applies equally well to blokes....
How many young guns on here with fast cars have had no other training other than how to pass a test?
Get some proper driving lessons, be better, be faster, but above all be safer.....
Sorry, just pissed off how easy it is to buy something you can't control and then put yourself and others at risk.
This may have been highly debated here before, I dunno, but I feel the need to raise it...
Our system requires us to pass a driving test if we want to drive a car on the road. The lessons required to pass this test do what it says on the box, pass the test. What this doesn't do is teach you car control. It doesn't teach you anything about car dynamics, or how the damn thing underneath you works.
It scares the crap out of me when I get 19 year old females in clio's tailgating me at 80mph and I know they haven't got a fecking clue what they'd do if I braked hard, they did the same, then lost it..... Ok, apologies for the female thing, applies equally well to blokes....
How many young guns on here with fast cars have had no other training other than how to pass a test?
Get some proper driving lessons, be better, be faster, but above all be safer.....
Sorry, just pissed off how easy it is to buy something you can't control and then put yourself and others at risk.
As I explained recently in another thread... when I was 17 and living with my parents, they'd only let me buy a car that was sub 1 litre. Got a 0.95 litre saxo with a 0-60 in 16 seconds... so slow but I quickly had my eyes opened (at low speed thankfully - my parents logic for an underpowered and performing car) to what handling limits were. I didn't know understeer existed until I entered a roundabout a little quick for the 'teflon coated' bicycle tyres on the car and understeered a meter wide. No danger or damage due to low speed and wide road... but an eye opener. Kids in modern cars with wide tyres must get this shock at far higher speeds than the speed of mine!
Several years later when I upgraded to a 106GTi the parents pushed me to take a skid pan day ... invaluable experience. Initially I only did it to give the family some peace of mind knowing I had even a vague idea about how a car can handle in a variety of scenarios.
Seven years since buying the 106 I've not got a kit car with a 0-60 of 3.6. This time I've managed to wangle a free airstrip day with a friend who works for a gliding club - so I'll learn this car there.
Training is invaluable. A skid pan and basic retest every five years at min is what I'd advocate.
Several years later when I upgraded to a 106GTi the parents pushed me to take a skid pan day ... invaluable experience. Initially I only did it to give the family some peace of mind knowing I had even a vague idea about how a car can handle in a variety of scenarios.
Seven years since buying the 106 I've not got a kit car with a 0-60 of 3.6. This time I've managed to wangle a free airstrip day with a friend who works for a gliding club - so I'll learn this car there.
Training is invaluable. A skid pan and basic retest every five years at min is what I'd advocate.
Edited by Freddy88FM on Sunday 8th December 19:51
Edited by Freddy88FM on Sunday 8th December 20:40
I only passéd my test 4 years ago and now drive a 475bhp rear wheel drive car. I'm not a driving god but I haven't killed myself yet and yes she is my daily so goes out in all weathers.
The driving test also fails to teach any kind of good manners and courtesy to other road users. I am absolutely staggered every single day by the insanely poor driving I see.
I think that being a good driver is about so much more than just car control.
You also have to remember that whilst we on PH take pride in our cars and our driving……most people just don't care. It's a to b. I know a lot of people who hate driving. It scares me. I have taken my wife to a skid pan day after seeing her 'drive' in the snow. It has helped her immeasurably.
Re-tests should be done but only if they are going to judge actual competence.
The driving test also fails to teach any kind of good manners and courtesy to other road users. I am absolutely staggered every single day by the insanely poor driving I see.
I think that being a good driver is about so much more than just car control.
You also have to remember that whilst we on PH take pride in our cars and our driving……most people just don't care. It's a to b. I know a lot of people who hate driving. It scares me. I have taken my wife to a skid pan day after seeing her 'drive' in the snow. It has helped her immeasurably.
Re-tests should be done but only if they are going to judge actual competence.
10 Pence Short said:
Safe road driving is about attitude, first. Car control at the limit is a long way down the list.
Giving new, young drivers advanced car control lessons has been shown to increase accidents due to over confidence creeping in.
Could you reference this? I'd be interested to read the study...Giving new, young drivers advanced car control lessons has been shown to increase accidents due to over confidence creeping in.
Im 20 and obviously, by writing stuff like this, a car nut and I wholly agree on this. The driving test system in this country is awful. When compared to driving tests in Scandinavia that have compulsory skid pans and a minimum of a year on a provisional licence. I first clocked on to this when having a chat with my mum (who has nearly 40 years driving experience) about controlling a car in a skid and she had no idea that if a car starts to over steer, in the snow for instance, that you should apply opposite (dab of oppo) AFTER 40 YEARS OF EXPERIENCE!. I also talked to a girl I know who wrote off her car at 40mph In the snow. She said once the car started to slide, she just 'let go of the wheel and cringed' AND THIS WAS AFTER A YEAR OF DRIVING LESSONS!!! PEOPLE JUST DON'T KNOW! Rant over
Quinny said:
I know a lad that's just bought a 300 BHP MR2 turbo..... He's 21 and already written off 2 low powered front wheel drive hatchbacks.....
I estimate 3 weeks before, there's an "incident"
3 days would be a closer estimate.I estimate 3 weeks before, there's an "incident"
I had a neighbour whose son was similar - first write-off was a basic Punto, he got a few points on his licence for that one. This was a few weeks after passing his test. Within 6 months he'd written off a Fiesta too. A few months after that, another Fiesta, mounted the kerb and left a pedestrian in hospital - fortunately the pedestrian survived. Lad is now banned for a while, but unfortunately not for life.
This guy has two problems - a serious attitude issue (only when driving) coupled with a complete lack of car control skills. The car control skills can be taught. But attitude is something that's much harder to correct....
As said. Passing the test is the START of learning to drive. But I'm of the opinion our production line driver tuition system is to blame. Then there's the no limitation on what cars newly passed folk can drive ,other than their capacity to pay for the insurance. Never has been . Kid always could from early days ,pass test in Mini and later in day jump into daddy's E type ,with no restriction, other than an insurance excess . Then again there's the test. Take it/learn in town conditions and learner never learns about vehicle handling on country roads ,or how to watch out for bad cambers and what happens to car behaviour on a badly cambered corner .
I've got myself a skidpan session in the new year, have been driving over 18 months now and the overconfidence a high euro N-cap rating and decent tyres gives the illusion of a safe car and skill, the tyres cover up most of the mistakes. I span my Megane twice and even after a year of driving had the astra's rear step out under braking at high speed and experienced understeer trying to exit an island too quickly.
Freddy88FM said:
10 Pence Short said:
Safe road driving is about attitude, first. Car control at the limit is a long way down the list.
Giving new, young drivers advanced car control lessons has been shown to increase accidents due to over confidence creeping in.
Could you reference this? I'd be interested to read the study...Giving new, young drivers advanced car control lessons has been shown to increase accidents due to over confidence creeping in.
This is borne out in other activities too. Attitude is key & what needs addressing.
Training throughout Europe is going through a big change. Search out HERMES project & GDE matrix.
It's a huge problem IMO. But it's not limited to those who are young and newly passed. There's also this trend of people that have driven for years but do not comprehend what it is they are doing each time they drive a car. It may sound nerdy (and we are aren't we on here) but I genuinely believe that if you aren't at a minimum confident in your vehicles abilities/limitations, confident to drive efficiently and without fear on a motorway, able to demonstrate you 'feel' where the gearing is, the braking, clutch etc etc. and that you what each of those things mean and how they combine to make a car move, then you shouldn't be driving.
That is only my opinion and I appreciate fully the impracticalities of suddenly banning everyone on the road who can't do the above as well as the arrogant assumption of my own abilities. I'd be confident I could pass my own test but there is no guarantee. I'm also likely missing much that could/should also be included.
It's all irrelevant anyway as it's irreversibly out of hand, too many rely on their cars and public transport is not convenient, local or efficient enough for everyone to use as a realistic alternative.
That is only my opinion and I appreciate fully the impracticalities of suddenly banning everyone on the road who can't do the above as well as the arrogant assumption of my own abilities. I'd be confident I could pass my own test but there is no guarantee. I'm also likely missing much that could/should also be included.
It's all irrelevant anyway as it's irreversibly out of hand, too many rely on their cars and public transport is not convenient, local or efficient enough for everyone to use as a realistic alternative.
vonhosen said:
http://www.driveandstayalive.com/articles%20and%20...
This is borne out in other activities too. Attitude is key & what needs addressing.
Training throughout Europe is going through a big change. Search out HERMES project & GDE matrix.
This is borne out in other activities too. Attitude is key & what needs addressing.
Training throughout Europe is going through a big change. Search out HERMES project & GDE matrix.
Overconfidence and inexperience is even more dangerous than inexperience on its own. I used to think I was a decent driver until I joined the police and quickly realised I had a LOT of room for improvement. I do think Roadcraft should be required reading for all new drivers however.
Mound Dawg said:
Which (fortunately for me) means-
He'll be at sea for most of his time so not driving.
He lives somewhere Oop North so when he is driving he'll be miles from me.
Haha don't be so sure, I work on the rigs and live near Banbury. He could be coming round a corner near you any time…...He'll be at sea for most of his time so not driving.
He lives somewhere Oop North so when he is driving he'll be miles from me.
Car control is one of those things that far too many people have no idea about, I learned by driving.
The other issue today is cars are so safe and disconnected from the driver. I remember at 22 (3 months shy of 23) buying a brand new Focus ST (06 model, on finance of course) despite that car having plenty of driver feedback it felt ludicrously safe, so much so that I never really respected it, even getting into a bit of lift off overseer at over the posted limit on a single carriage way NSL road, the ESP gathered it up and I carried on my merry way – no ESP means I would have been in a field more than likely.
Fast forward 2 1/2 years and the Focus ST is traded in for a 2006 Mustang GT, scary really scary. The traction control is rudimentary at best (all it does is curtail any wheel spin) there is no ESP and it is sending 300hp (slightly more now
) to the rear wheels, the only rear wheel drive car I had driven before that was a DB9 and AMV8 on a driving experience day, the electronics were firmly on and you never got to get anywhere near the cars limits. So it was a bit of a baptism of fire.
Still it was 3 weeks before it went sideways on a slippery roundabout (well used by Army HGV’s and the like) due to a bit of over exuberance on the throttle I found myself at 45 degrees to the road I managed to correct it and carried on but it did show me that even at relatively low speeds (<20mph) this car can bite.
These days I know mine and the cars limits, no need for track training, skid pan training (though I do agree both should be part of the test) and nobody has died. Oddly I leave the TCS on in the dry and turn it off in the wet – I find it safer that way.
I learned by doing and on my own, as nobody in my immediate family had ever had anything like the Mustang in terms of power and it being a bit twitchy in the wet, but taking advice about counter steering, doing a bit of reading and letting the cars own little b
h slaps (oi you are being stupid mate, any more and you are in a hedge – do you hear me!). But the difference is I knew it would be a handful and I learned and took it steady (relatively) these days people are that disconnected they don’t feel the need (or are so arrogant don’t think they need) to learn how to control a car properly.
The other issue today is cars are so safe and disconnected from the driver. I remember at 22 (3 months shy of 23) buying a brand new Focus ST (06 model, on finance of course) despite that car having plenty of driver feedback it felt ludicrously safe, so much so that I never really respected it, even getting into a bit of lift off overseer at over the posted limit on a single carriage way NSL road, the ESP gathered it up and I carried on my merry way – no ESP means I would have been in a field more than likely.
Fast forward 2 1/2 years and the Focus ST is traded in for a 2006 Mustang GT, scary really scary. The traction control is rudimentary at best (all it does is curtail any wheel spin) there is no ESP and it is sending 300hp (slightly more now
) to the rear wheels, the only rear wheel drive car I had driven before that was a DB9 and AMV8 on a driving experience day, the electronics were firmly on and you never got to get anywhere near the cars limits. So it was a bit of a baptism of fire.Still it was 3 weeks before it went sideways on a slippery roundabout (well used by Army HGV’s and the like) due to a bit of over exuberance on the throttle I found myself at 45 degrees to the road I managed to correct it and carried on but it did show me that even at relatively low speeds (<20mph) this car can bite.
These days I know mine and the cars limits, no need for track training, skid pan training (though I do agree both should be part of the test) and nobody has died. Oddly I leave the TCS on in the dry and turn it off in the wet – I find it safer that way.
I learned by doing and on my own, as nobody in my immediate family had ever had anything like the Mustang in terms of power and it being a bit twitchy in the wet, but taking advice about counter steering, doing a bit of reading and letting the cars own little b
h slaps (oi you are being stupid mate, any more and you are in a hedge – do you hear me!). But the difference is I knew it would be a handful and I learned and took it steady (relatively) these days people are that disconnected they don’t feel the need (or are so arrogant don’t think they need) to learn how to control a car properly.Edited by PanzerCommander on Monday 9th December 07:48
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