Have you driven your car round the Nurburgring?
Discussion
Have you driven your car round the Nurburgring? How did it perform?
I took my unmodified 2004 Impreza WRX there in 2011. I thought the car would be amazing but it was pretty disappointing. The circuit seemed to highlight all its weaknesses. Turbo lag below 2k (which is not so noticeable on the road) and relatively soft suspension and high weight. It also felt like it wanted to understeer, which again never really happened on the road. I laughed at an old Civic and mk2 Golf in the pit lane but I didn't see which way they went in the corners and it wasn't a fast enough circuit to make advantage of my extra power on the straights! Mercifully it was dry but I guess I may have had more of a traction advantage in the wet. I don't claim to be a driving god but have an advanced driving qualification (IAM) and consider myself to be a competent driver!
I think my 205 GTi (1.6) and MX5 may have been just as quick (if not quicker) due to sharper throttle response and lower weight but in all fairness, I was only 2 days into a 10 day holiday and was conscious of conserving my tyres and brakes and not stacking it into the Armco, which some poor guy did in his E36 M3. I know other people that have come a cropper on the Nurburgring as well, so wasn't trying to push too hard! Top speed was 120mph on the start/finish straight, which I've beaten on the road (derestricted Autobahn obviously) but to be fair, I would have gone faster if you didn't have to pit after every lap.
My Impreza is also still my perfect car for UK roads. Decent shove for overtaking, good traction in all weathers and supple enough suspension for bumpy roads (I could drive my Impreza at twice the speed of my wife's Fiat 500 down the same road and not feel the bumps, whereas the Fiat would be skipping all over the place! Also a very comfortable car for travelling long distances in. I hardly ever drive on track, so having a car suitable for spirited road driving is more important to me!
From what I observed, the quickest cars on the Nurburgring were Porsche 911s (looked like they were barely breaking sweat) and M3s (or track-prepared 3-Series coupes) and RenaultSport Clios for sufficient power, low weight and FWD agility. A GTR would probably be the car to have in the wet though!
A lot of performance models now claim to be honed on the Nurburgring, so I was wondering if any PHers with more modern cars than mine have cars that performed better on the Nurburgring. Does this come at the expense of on-road performance i.e. an overly firm ride? How did older unmodified cars fare?
I took my unmodified 2004 Impreza WRX there in 2011. I thought the car would be amazing but it was pretty disappointing. The circuit seemed to highlight all its weaknesses. Turbo lag below 2k (which is not so noticeable on the road) and relatively soft suspension and high weight. It also felt like it wanted to understeer, which again never really happened on the road. I laughed at an old Civic and mk2 Golf in the pit lane but I didn't see which way they went in the corners and it wasn't a fast enough circuit to make advantage of my extra power on the straights! Mercifully it was dry but I guess I may have had more of a traction advantage in the wet. I don't claim to be a driving god but have an advanced driving qualification (IAM) and consider myself to be a competent driver!
I think my 205 GTi (1.6) and MX5 may have been just as quick (if not quicker) due to sharper throttle response and lower weight but in all fairness, I was only 2 days into a 10 day holiday and was conscious of conserving my tyres and brakes and not stacking it into the Armco, which some poor guy did in his E36 M3. I know other people that have come a cropper on the Nurburgring as well, so wasn't trying to push too hard! Top speed was 120mph on the start/finish straight, which I've beaten on the road (derestricted Autobahn obviously) but to be fair, I would have gone faster if you didn't have to pit after every lap.
My Impreza is also still my perfect car for UK roads. Decent shove for overtaking, good traction in all weathers and supple enough suspension for bumpy roads (I could drive my Impreza at twice the speed of my wife's Fiat 500 down the same road and not feel the bumps, whereas the Fiat would be skipping all over the place! Also a very comfortable car for travelling long distances in. I hardly ever drive on track, so having a car suitable for spirited road driving is more important to me!
From what I observed, the quickest cars on the Nurburgring were Porsche 911s (looked like they were barely breaking sweat) and M3s (or track-prepared 3-Series coupes) and RenaultSport Clios for sufficient power, low weight and FWD agility. A GTR would probably be the car to have in the wet though!
A lot of performance models now claim to be honed on the Nurburgring, so I was wondering if any PHers with more modern cars than mine have cars that performed better on the Nurburgring. Does this come at the expense of on-road performance i.e. an overly firm ride? How did older unmodified cars fare?
Circuit knowledge combined with confidence in slip your angles at the limit and less self-preservation will contribute more towards a faster lapping than IAM training. It takes a very long time to build up speed on the 'ring. Everyone is a newbie once, so over time you'll build up more speed and learn where to keep it on boost, resulting in a much more satisfying experience.
ETA: To answer the actual question - yes, driven many road and track cars round there. All road-spec cars feel too soft, even those that seem too harsh for British roads, manufacturers generally ensure the cars aren't optimised for a 'ring lap just for marketing. Old cars lap at a much slower pace so are very entertaining in a different way.
ETA: To answer the actual question - yes, driven many road and track cars round there. All road-spec cars feel too soft, even those that seem too harsh for British roads, manufacturers generally ensure the cars aren't optimised for a 'ring lap just for marketing. Old cars lap at a much slower pace so are very entertaining in a different way.
Edited by Jacobyte on Monday 9th December 18:15
Benbay001 said:
Ive only driven on track once, but i would suggest you were doing something wrong to be getting below 2k
Coming out of some of the slower corners when I had to slow more than I might have done to avoid getting taken out by nutters! I'd like to say when caught behind slower traffic but the only car I overtook was a RAV4 and a few stricken cars.Jacobyte said:
Circuit knowledge combined with confidence in slip your angles at the limit and less self-preservation will contribute more towards a faster lapping than IAM training. It takes a very long time to build up speed on the 'ring. Everyone is a newbie once, so over time you'll build up more speed and learn where to keep it on boost, resulting in a much more satisfying experience.
ETA: To answer the actual question - yes, driven many road and track cars round there. All road-spec cars feel too soft, even those that seem too harsh for British roads, manufacturers generally ensure the cars aren't optimised for a 'ring lap just for marketing. Old cars lap at a much slower pace so are very entertaining in a different way.
Only did 4 laps (my wife drove the 3rd) and I only really went for it on the last lap but felt the brakes had gone off a bit by then. I practised the track on Grand Turismo before going but not really the same thing! I don't confess to being an experienced track driver and just went for the experience but felt that I would have got more out of a car with a sharper throttle response, lower weight and/or firmer suspension but not necessarily more power. I wouldn't have traded the car for the rest of the holiday for much short of a 911 though, as it was fantastic. Judging by the stance of the old Golf/Civic, they were clearly more set up for track driving even if they didn't have more power than my car.ETA: To answer the actual question - yes, driven many road and track cars round there. All road-spec cars feel too soft, even those that seem too harsh for British roads, manufacturers generally ensure the cars aren't optimised for a 'ring lap just for marketing. Old cars lap at a much slower pace so are very entertaining in a different way.
Edited by Jacobyte on Monday 9th December 18:15
Sadly I don't have the Impreza anymore so I won't be going again in the near future, as I don't think my Grand Cherokee would be a great track car but a few laps with an instructor in something like a RenaultSport Clio would be fun!
Went round in my pretty much standard Civic EP3 for my first time this summer, has to be said it was amazing and the only time the car felt spot on, on the road it's a bit stiff and fidgety.
Only had one lap but it hadn't rained for days so perfect conditions. Overtook 5 cars! (got overtaken by more!) Although I've been obsessed with the place for years and have done thousands of laps on games which definitely helped.
Only had one lap but it hadn't rained for days so perfect conditions. Overtook 5 cars! (got overtaken by more!) Although I've been obsessed with the place for years and have done thousands of laps on games which definitely helped.
Strangely, a mate and I were just talking about this the other day. The Ring (or any track for that matter) will make you realise your 'fast road' car is hopelessly out its depth and actually not that fast, relatively speaking. I went over anually a few years back and did the most laps with a Cavalier Turbo which for road use, was actually pretty well put together. Circa 250bhp, 4x4, Bilstein suspension, poly bushed rack and so on. It was quick, compliant and drove very well. I thought it'd manage just fine.
Ha! Masses and masses of understeer as the 50 series tyres simply gave up. It felt big, heavy and like everything was connected together with rubber bolts and elastic bands. The brakes were ready for going home from about 5 miles in and ont he long uphill stretches, the turbo was working so hard the boost was just dying off. I was forced to ease off for a couple of miles, let the car recover and press on again. Don't get me wrong, it was far from hopeless but my God it opened my eyes up to it's weaknesses. But then again, it was a road car with minimal mods so really... what was to be expected? I accepted it was always going to fall short and thus instead just dialled it back a bit and enjoyed the experience.
As for the Vectra Super Touring that went out the following rear... parking it in the armco early on was the best thing that ever happened to that car.
Ha! Masses and masses of understeer as the 50 series tyres simply gave up. It felt big, heavy and like everything was connected together with rubber bolts and elastic bands. The brakes were ready for going home from about 5 miles in and ont he long uphill stretches, the turbo was working so hard the boost was just dying off. I was forced to ease off for a couple of miles, let the car recover and press on again. Don't get me wrong, it was far from hopeless but my God it opened my eyes up to it's weaknesses. But then again, it was a road car with minimal mods so really... what was to be expected? I accepted it was always going to fall short and thus instead just dialled it back a bit and enjoyed the experience.
As for the Vectra Super Touring that went out the following rear... parking it in the armco early on was the best thing that ever happened to that car.
DRCAGE said:
Went round in my pretty much standard Civic EP3 for my first time this summer, has to be said it was amazing and the only time the car felt spot on, on the road it's a bit stiff and fidgety.
Only had one lap but it hadn't rained for days so perfect conditions. Overtook 5 cars! (got overtaken by more!) Although I've been obsessed with the place for years and have done thousands of laps on games which definitely helped.
Same, the only thing I've driven there was my old EP3 in 2006, again only 1 lap but it felt so right. Amazing experience.Only had one lap but it hadn't rained for days so perfect conditions. Overtook 5 cars! (got overtaken by more!) Although I've been obsessed with the place for years and have done thousands of laps on games which definitely helped.
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Yup, I did 10 laps in my old Mk1 MX5.
I enjoyed it, but treated the 'ring as a one-way B road, not a circuit I could learn in a few laps and throw the car around.
Next time I think I'd pay more and do a track day as opposed to a tourist day. I found it hard to get into a groove with the track due to working out how/when to safely overtake faster but erractically driven cars in front whilst watching out for much faster and committed locals who take no prisoners in my rear view mirror. Throw in bikes who leave you on the straights and then hold you up in corners (whilst taking the racing line and just not looking out for anyone wanted to get past them) and I found it all a bit too stressful to really enjoy the track.
I do a few track days and find the standard of driving and known etiquette helps drivers and cars at various ends of the spectrum get along OK. I found a tourist day at the 'ring a bit of a free for all.
Probably enjoyed the drive there / back and the general few days away with mates as much as actually driving the 'ring if I'm honest. One from the bucket list ticked and I'm sure I'll go there in the Caterham some time, just not really drawn back to it in the short term (especially as my car still has a 3.92 diff with a 6 speed box - I'd probably take the whole track in 5th and 6th!)
I enjoyed it, but treated the 'ring as a one-way B road, not a circuit I could learn in a few laps and throw the car around.
Next time I think I'd pay more and do a track day as opposed to a tourist day. I found it hard to get into a groove with the track due to working out how/when to safely overtake faster but erractically driven cars in front whilst watching out for much faster and committed locals who take no prisoners in my rear view mirror. Throw in bikes who leave you on the straights and then hold you up in corners (whilst taking the racing line and just not looking out for anyone wanted to get past them) and I found it all a bit too stressful to really enjoy the track.
I do a few track days and find the standard of driving and known etiquette helps drivers and cars at various ends of the spectrum get along OK. I found a tourist day at the 'ring a bit of a free for all.
Probably enjoyed the drive there / back and the general few days away with mates as much as actually driving the 'ring if I'm honest. One from the bucket list ticked and I'm sure I'll go there in the Caterham some time, just not really drawn back to it in the short term (especially as my car still has a 3.92 diff with a 6 speed box - I'd probably take the whole track in 5th and 6th!)
Edited by Matt UK on Monday 9th December 20:09
I went for the first time this summer, and was actually pretty pleased with how my mk2 MR2 performed. Felt reasonably tight in the corners and wasn't getting any brake fade - only real issue was it didn't have the power to take 4th on the hill between the Adenuer entrance and the Karussell.
I was very conscious of the fact I had to drive back to the UK in it and didn't have any breakdown cover, so took it fairly easy - I did 4 laps and think my last and best was a 10.28 BTG.
Hopefully I'll be able to make another trip next summer, and crack the magic 10 minute lap, but I'll probably hire a Suzuki Swift from Rent4Ring or RentRaceCar, as my current car (BMW 328) really does feel out of its depth on track.
I was very conscious of the fact I had to drive back to the UK in it and didn't have any breakdown cover, so took it fairly easy - I did 4 laps and think my last and best was a 10.28 BTG.
Hopefully I'll be able to make another trip next summer, and crack the magic 10 minute lap, but I'll probably hire a Suzuki Swift from Rent4Ring or RentRaceCar, as my current car (BMW 328) really does feel out of its depth on track.
Yip, mk4 golf gttdi 150, and it was horrendous. Took a track prepared suziki swift out from a certain hire company, and it pissed all over it. Was better in every single way, if I go back would do it again. The thing just gripped and gripped. Pushed it way harder than I would push my own car - as it has to get me home!
I took the RX8 there in 2006...
Had over the years come to think myself as a driving god with skills that would be the envy of others on the track...
Ten or so corners in and it felt like Driving Miss Daisy!
First the back let go ... Then the front... Then about half way round the bottle went as well!
Made me appreciate the professionals more than any thing I have ever done...
So glad I did it though... Will go back one day.
Had over the years come to think myself as a driving god with skills that would be the envy of others on the track...
Ten or so corners in and it felt like Driving Miss Daisy!
First the back let go ... Then the front... Then about half way round the bottle went as well!
Made me appreciate the professionals more than any thing I have ever done...
So glad I did it though... Will go back one day.
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