MG ZR 160 vs Saxo VTS vs Celica 140
Discussion
I know there are hundreds of these threads but I think it's good to see what other people would recommend. In about 8 weeks time I'm going to sell my current car and I should have about £1000 to buy something else.
I don't need it for work but the insurance has to be fairly low. (22, 1 years NCB, 1 fault claim, licence for 3 years, good postcode) I want it to be "quick" and fairly fun but I really hate Clio's.
I like the look of a Saxo VTS (previously had a VTR), the 106/306 GTI/Rallye is too expensive. The MG ZR VVC 160 also seems to tick the boxes. I have noticed a few Toyota Celica's with the 140bhp engine for less than a grand that seem in decent condition but are they any good?
I'm going to try and get a list of cars and buy the first one I find that is in good nick instead of saying "I want a ZR so that's all I will look for".
I don't need it for work but the insurance has to be fairly low. (22, 1 years NCB, 1 fault claim, licence for 3 years, good postcode) I want it to be "quick" and fairly fun but I really hate Clio's.
I like the look of a Saxo VTS (previously had a VTR), the 106/306 GTI/Rallye is too expensive. The MG ZR VVC 160 also seems to tick the boxes. I have noticed a few Toyota Celica's with the 140bhp engine for less than a grand that seem in decent condition but are they any good?
I'm going to try and get a list of cars and buy the first one I find that is in good nick instead of saying "I want a ZR so that's all I will look for".
vx220 said:
The Celica could suffer from the oval bore issue (see owners club for details), the MG could suffer from HGF (if it has been done before it'll hopefully be ok
Out of the three, I would like a Saxo, but I really would want the earlier style, and I think they're all gone!
Saxo's like to eat rear radius arm bearings which are a PITA/ expensive to sort. Out of the three, I would like a Saxo, but I really would want the earlier style, and I think they're all gone!
I'd still go French though. 16v Saxo's are genuinely very quick and a bit bonkers too.
Just go for a standard unbarry'd example, If it's been lowered, run away.
Buff Mchugelarge said:
vx220 said:
The Celica could suffer from the oval bore issue (see owners club for details), the MG could suffer from HGF (if it has been done before it'll hopefully be ok
Out of the three, I would like a Saxo, but I really would want the earlier style, and I think they're all gone!
Saxo's like to eat rear radius arm bearings which are a PITA/ expensive to sort. Out of the three, I would like a Saxo, but I really would want the earlier style, and I think they're all gone!
I'd still go French though. 16v Saxo's are genuinely very quick and a bit bonkers too.
Just go for a standard unbarry'd example, If it's been lowered, run away.
Buff Mchugelarge said:
Saxo's like to eat rear radius arm bearings which are a PITA/ expensive to sort.
I'd still go French though. 16v Saxo's are genuinely very quick and a bit bonkers too.
Just go for a standard unbarry'd example, If it's been lowered, run away.
The axle bearings are quite easy to change, a whole axle is even easier, four bolts holds the axle to the body. I'd still go French though. 16v Saxo's are genuinely very quick and a bit bonkers too.
Just go for a standard unbarry'd example, If it's been lowered, run away.
Don't be totally put off by modified ones, some people still spend very big money on these cars.
Slightly different option, not sure on insurance but it's tried and tested mechanicals. Seat Leon Cupra:
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2013...
ETA: Have you considered a Ford Puma? If you can find one without rust that is, although they are not as fast as the other options.
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2013...
ETA: Have you considered a Ford Puma? If you can find one without rust that is, although they are not as fast as the other options.
Edited by poing on Saturday 18th January 22:35
Those ZR's really handle supremely well for what they are, and in 160bhp form they fairly boogy too. The interior's crap but the seats are supportive and they're super easy to maintain. Just watch for potential head gasket problems but to be honest they should hold together well if you let them warm up properly before a caning. Definitely worth a test drive!
vx220 said:
P I Staker said:
The axle bearings are quite easy to change, a whole axle is even easier, four bolts holds the axle to the body.
Don't be totally put off by modified ones, some people still spend very big money on these cars.
Complete refurbed axle circa £400 exchange IIRC?Don't be totally put off by modified ones, some people still spend very big money on these cars.
vx220 said:
The Celica could suffer from the oval bore issue (see owners club for details), the MG could suffer from HGF (if it has been done before it'll hopefully be ok
Out of the three, I would like a Saxo, but I really would want the earlier style, and I think they're all gone!
I will look in to that with the Celica, how are they to drive? I know my round a ZR and what to look for with the HGF so that's not an issue at all. Out of the three, I would like a Saxo, but I really would want the earlier style, and I think they're all gone!
I have had a Saxo VTR and I did enjoy it but it needed a little more power!
Buff Mchugelarge said:
Saxo's like to eat rear radius arm bearings which are a PITA/ expensive to sort.
I'd still go French though. 16v Saxo's are genuinely very quick and a bit bonkers too.
Just go for a standard unbarry'd example, If it's been lowered, run away.
I'd still go French though. 16v Saxo's are genuinely very quick and a bit bonkers too.
Just go for a standard unbarry'd example, If it's been lowered, run away.
P I Staker said:
The axle bearings are quite easy to change, a whole axle is even easier, four bolts holds the axle to the body.
Don't be totally put off by modified ones, some people still spend very big money on these cars.
I know all about the axles, easy enough to sort though. Depending on the mods and the quality of parts I don't always think its a bad thing, a lot of enthusiasts mod their cars and take care of them. Don't be totally put off by modified ones, some people still spend very big money on these cars.
Fantuzzi said:
Why the hate for clio's out of interest?
I can't stand being in them, even as a passenger! I have driven a few different models of that age Clio including an early 172 and I think they are horrible to just sit in, the seats are crap, the driving position is crap, the contact points are crap, everything is crap. I really really hate them! (All in my opinion of course)poing said:
Slightly different option, not sure on insurance but it's tried and tested mechanicals. Seat Leon Cupra:
ETA: Have you considered a Ford Puma? If you can find one without rust that is, although they are not as fast as the other options.
I have owned 2 MK4 Golfs (1.4, 110 gt tdi) and driven a few more (GTI TDI 150, GTI 1.8T 150, GTI 2.0) so I don't really want another. They are also a bit heavy and wallowey (is that a word?) for what I want at the moment. ETA: Have you considered a Ford Puma? If you can find one without rust that is, although they are not as fast as the other options.
Edited by poing on Saturday 18th January 22:35
I ruled out the Puma and Mk3 Golf GTI 16V because I can't be bothered with rust issues. As I discovered with a previous MK3 it's a massive pain and I don't want to have to deal with it again.
Ennoch said:
Those ZR's really handle supremely well for what they are, and in 160bhp form they fairly boogy too. The interior's crap but the seats are supportive and they're super easy to maintain. Just watch for potential head gasket problems but to be honest they should hold together well if you let them warm up properly before a caning. Definitely worth a test drive!
That's what I thought after taking a good friends 1.4 for a spirited drive after we changed the head gasket and everything else that wears out! We think the head gasket failed because of a leaking water pump causing overheating. P I Staker said:
£255 exchange from IM Axles.
That's who I was going to use with my old VTR but I sold the car for spares instead. Just to add - What ever I choose it must be fairly cheap and simple to maintain/service as I would do as much work possible my self on the road out side the shared house I live in
VTS out of that lot. MG could have been a good car, but the Saxo ride and handles better. MG would have the legs on it, but only once you've got past the motorway speed limit.
As people have said, find a standard one. I've just returned my wife's to standard spec (bar 106 GTi leathers....that's well worth doing) from being lowered etc, and it's so much better for it. Why I thought I could improve what a car manufacturer did (one which generally made good handling cars in that era) myself is beyond me. Maybe I thought it was cool innit.
As people have said, find a standard one. I've just returned my wife's to standard spec (bar 106 GTi leathers....that's well worth doing) from being lowered etc, and it's so much better for it. Why I thought I could improve what a car manufacturer did (one which generally made good handling cars in that era) myself is beyond me. Maybe I thought it was cool innit.
MG, VTS or keep an eye out for a 106 GTi.
Celica is a fair bit heavier and not as chuckable, I wouldn't bother.
The K series sounds more amusing than the 1.6 in the Saxo, and HGF aside it's reliable and parts are cheap. My 106 GTi was faultless for the year I had it, wish I'd kept hold of it as finding another is proving tricky.
Celica is a fair bit heavier and not as chuckable, I wouldn't bother.
The K series sounds more amusing than the 1.6 in the Saxo, and HGF aside it's reliable and parts are cheap. My 106 GTi was faultless for the year I had it, wish I'd kept hold of it as finding another is proving tricky.
The Celica mk7 is a hoot to drive but I'd go for the 190. I can't even begin to imagine how slow the 140 feels compared to how it looks.
The Saxo will fold like a packet of crisps if you bin it and the MG ZR is really just a dolled up Rover 25 and suffers from the same build quality issues.
God, I'm grumpy in the morning...
The Saxo will fold like a packet of crisps if you bin it and the MG ZR is really just a dolled up Rover 25 and suffers from the same build quality issues.
God, I'm grumpy in the morning...
The Celica mk7 is a hoot to drive but I'd go for the 190. I can't even begin to imagine how slow the 140 feels compared to how it looks.
The Saxo will fold like a packet of crisps if you bin it and the MG ZR is really just a dolled up Rover 25 and suffers from the same build quality issues.
God, I'm grumpy in the morning...
The Saxo will fold like a packet of crisps if you bin it and the MG ZR is really just a dolled up Rover 25 and suffers from the same build quality issues.
God, I'm grumpy in the morning...
Kitchski said:
VTS out of that lot. MG could have been a good car, but the Saxo ride and handles better. MG would have the legs on it, but only once you've got past the motorway speed limit.
As people have said, find a standard one. I've just returned my wife's to standard spec (bar 106 GTi leathers....that's well worth doing) from being lowered etc, and it's so much better for it. Why I thought I could improve what a car manufacturer did (one which generally made good handling cars in that era) myself is beyond me. Maybe I thought it was cool innit.
As people have said, find a standard one. I've just returned my wife's to standard spec (bar 106 GTi leathers....that's well worth doing) from being lowered etc, and it's so much better for it. Why I thought I could improve what a car manufacturer did (one which generally made good handling cars in that era) myself is beyond me. Maybe I thought it was cool innit.
pthelazyjourno said:
MG, VTS or keep an eye out for a 106 GTi.
Celica is a fair bit heavier and not as chuckable, I wouldn't bother.
The K series sounds more amusing than the 1.6 in the Saxo, and HGF aside it's reliable and parts are cheap. My 106 GTi was faultless for the year I had it, wish I'd kept hold of it as finding another is proving tricky.
Well the VTS and ZR are on the list I don't mind which one I get, I can't be choosey with this budget so I will buy on condition nearest first.Celica is a fair bit heavier and not as chuckable, I wouldn't bother.
The K series sounds more amusing than the 1.6 in the Saxo, and HGF aside it's reliable and parts are cheap. My 106 GTi was faultless for the year I had it, wish I'd kept hold of it as finding another is proving tricky.
ModernAndy said:
The Celica mk7 is a hoot to drive but I'd go for the 190. I can't even begin to imagine how slow the 140 feels compared to how it looks.
The Saxo will fold like a packet of crisps if you bin it and the MG ZR is really just a dolled up Rover 25 and suffers from the same build quality issues.
God, I'm grumpy in the morning...
If any 190's come up for less than a grand then I'm guessing they will be awful. The Saxo will fold like a packet of crisps if you bin it and the MG ZR is really just a dolled up Rover 25 and suffers from the same build quality issues.
God, I'm grumpy in the morning...
I think most of the cars I am looking at will be rubbish in the safety department. I don't care about build quality, this car will be used for fun and when I can't be bothered to walk 2.5 miles to work.
ETA Thanks for all the reply's so far!
the weight isnt so bad as you think - 1145kg for the gen7. That's 5kg LIGHTER than the ZR! best FWD car ive ever driven - yep had a puma and tried an integra. ALl great. celica is very nimble.
Ive had all 3 - toyota is a quality product, the others dont bear thinking about. If you can afford a toyota, do it. oval bores is a by product of lack of maintenance. It's well known thing based on "precats" - read up on it. and it's nowhere near as common as made out. get one with history and if you're really bothered remove the manifold and remove the precats. or just go 190 - there are some out there under a grand that arent dogs. nto many, but some.
The ZR 160 is supposed ot be a post-modification engine, so they sorted the head gasket thing out. that said, if you do pop one its not the end of the world - £350 will sort it.
Saxo was utter s
te in every conceivable way, except it went fast. However it FELT faster than it really was. Celica can't shake one off, but it won't lose one either on a b road. I shudder to think what i'd look like if i hit something in it... badly built badly designed and made of monkey metal.
Have fun whatever you choose.
Ive had all 3 - toyota is a quality product, the others dont bear thinking about. If you can afford a toyota, do it. oval bores is a by product of lack of maintenance. It's well known thing based on "precats" - read up on it. and it's nowhere near as common as made out. get one with history and if you're really bothered remove the manifold and remove the precats. or just go 190 - there are some out there under a grand that arent dogs. nto many, but some.
The ZR 160 is supposed ot be a post-modification engine, so they sorted the head gasket thing out. that said, if you do pop one its not the end of the world - £350 will sort it.
Saxo was utter s
te in every conceivable way, except it went fast. However it FELT faster than it really was. Celica can't shake one off, but it won't lose one either on a b road. I shudder to think what i'd look like if i hit something in it... badly built badly designed and made of monkey metal.Have fun whatever you choose.
RedAndy said:
the weight isnt so bad as you think - 1145kg for the gen7. That's 5kg LIGHTER than the ZR! best FWD car ive ever driven - yep had a puma and tried an integra. ALl great. celica is very nimble.
Ive had all 3 - toyota is a quality product, the others dont bear thinking about. If you can afford a toyota, do it. oval bores is a by product of lack of maintenance. It's well known thing based on "precats" - read up on it. and it's nowhere near as common as made out. get one with history and if you're really bothered remove the manifold and remove the precats. or just go 190 - there are some out there under a grand that arent dogs. nto many, but some.
The ZR 160 is supposed ot be a post-modification engine, so they sorted the head gasket thing out. that said, if you do pop one its not the end of the world - £350 will sort it.
Saxo was utter ste in every conceivable way, except it went fast. However it FELT faster than it really was. Celica can't shake one off, but it won't lose one either on a b road. I shudder to think what i'd look like if i hit something in it... badly built badly designed and made of monkey metal.
Have fun whatever you choose.
The Celica has mixed opinions it's a shame its near impossible to test drive a car of this value without messing private sellers around and I refuse to do that! Ive had all 3 - toyota is a quality product, the others dont bear thinking about. If you can afford a toyota, do it. oval bores is a by product of lack of maintenance. It's well known thing based on "precats" - read up on it. and it's nowhere near as common as made out. get one with history and if you're really bothered remove the manifold and remove the precats. or just go 190 - there are some out there under a grand that arent dogs. nto many, but some.
The ZR 160 is supposed ot be a post-modification engine, so they sorted the head gasket thing out. that said, if you do pop one its not the end of the world - £350 will sort it.
Saxo was utter s
te in every conceivable way, except it went fast. However it FELT faster than it really was. Celica can't shake one off, but it won't lose one either on a b road. I shudder to think what i'd look like if i hit something in it... badly built badly designed and made of monkey metal.Have fun whatever you choose.
I should be able to do the HG for less than £200 inc the cam belt & water pump. As above I have previously owned a Saxo VTR and got on fine with it, the build quality really doesn't concern me.
It's always good to hear opinions from people that have owned the cars so thanks!
For a grand to be honest I'd just buy the car that seems to be the best looked after as there's loads of rubbish at a grand-ish. I'd take the Celica or a Leon. ZR160 is meant to be quite nice but too boy racer/unrefined for me.
Don't know why you think the 306 gti is too expensive some high mileage ones for a grand near me and some S16/XSI cars still around. XSI same as S16/GTI but slightly detuned engine with five speed gearbox I believe. Don't know if the pre-facelift Cupra has 225 tyres like the later cars. The 225 tyres grip much better than any 205 tyre Golf/A3/Leon/Octavia and are nice, quick cars but a bit soft feeling like you said.
Sounds like you already made your mind up about the ZR though. They seem cheap and cheerful I guess and are meant to rev/handle nicely. Try a 190 Celica if any are in budget the engines much better than the 140 even if it doesn't 'feel' much faster it is.
Also try a Puma as all the 1.6/1.7 Puma/Fiesta cars of that era drive great and the rear arch rust is a minor problem that shouldn't make you worried. They all do it in time and they still pass MOT with minor rust and it's easy to repair it before it becomes a real problem. I think they look good as well and the handling feel/steering feel and gearbox are great. Celica gearbox is a bit crap to be honest it doesn't like fast changes.
Maybe a Focus ST170? Are they a grand yet? The standard Focus Mk1 drives well reckon that should be a good car. Also an early high miles Civic Type-R is now only about 2k if you can stretch the budget a bit.
Perhaps a Civic VTi? Handle quite well stock with 1.6/1.8 engine that loves revs and makes a nice noise. Especailly when re-mapped with an intake/induction kit. Mmmmm 8K rpm and VTEC.
Don't know why you think the 306 gti is too expensive some high mileage ones for a grand near me and some S16/XSI cars still around. XSI same as S16/GTI but slightly detuned engine with five speed gearbox I believe. Don't know if the pre-facelift Cupra has 225 tyres like the later cars. The 225 tyres grip much better than any 205 tyre Golf/A3/Leon/Octavia and are nice, quick cars but a bit soft feeling like you said.
Sounds like you already made your mind up about the ZR though. They seem cheap and cheerful I guess and are meant to rev/handle nicely. Try a 190 Celica if any are in budget the engines much better than the 140 even if it doesn't 'feel' much faster it is.
Also try a Puma as all the 1.6/1.7 Puma/Fiesta cars of that era drive great and the rear arch rust is a minor problem that shouldn't make you worried. They all do it in time and they still pass MOT with minor rust and it's easy to repair it before it becomes a real problem. I think they look good as well and the handling feel/steering feel and gearbox are great.
Celica gearbox is a bit crap to be honest it doesn't like fast changes.Maybe a Focus ST170? Are they a grand yet? The standard Focus Mk1 drives well reckon that should be a good car. Also an early high miles Civic Type-R is now only about 2k if you can stretch the budget a bit.
Perhaps a Civic VTi? Handle quite well stock with 1.6/1.8 engine that loves revs and makes a nice noise. Especailly when re-mapped with an intake/induction kit. Mmmmm 8K rpm and VTEC.
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