The future, according to car enthusiasts
Discussion
I'm not in the best frame of minds this morning, due to various things going on at the moment.
That front-wheel-drive BMW thread has really depressed me though. Not so much that they've done it - that was inevitable, but more the attitude of PHers towards daily drivers.
I know I'm in a tiny minority even using Pistonheads. I often feel like a tiny minority within Pistonheads however.
I, like many PHers, have to drive to work and back every day. I have a wife and 2 children and we're completely normal, unremarkable people. The only trouble is, that I like our family cars to drive well.
I don't drive everywhere with the back end hanging out and smoke pouring from the tyres, and I don't like crashing over bumps and potholes. I just like some driver involvement, elegance in the controls, good quality feel and nice, balanced handling. I'm also a little environmentally conscious, not so much about fuel consumption and emissions but more the energy consumption at disposal, and how this affects me. Thus, I like cars without marginal benefits from extremely expensive and highly complex failure modes built in - e.g. electronic suspension and infotainment centres that render the car useless if they fail and prohibitively expensive to diagnose and repair.
I understand that the 98% don't care. I understand that car manufacturers will disappear up their own backsides chasing the 98% and give them what they want.
Where do I go next? The answer isn't "buy a sportscar". I already have sportscars. I like sportscars on the odd occassion that crops up where I can drive them. I need to do sensible things most of the time though, and I do not want to drive something crap every day. I need interior space, but not a lorry. Just a decent sized car with folding rear seats will do. I do not need to compromise the looks and drive in favour of getting a van - that's overweighting the space requirement. At the same time, a little coupe with a small boot would be unfit for purpose. I like petrol engines, prefer natural aspiration and don't mind spending money on fuel if it keeps me away from diesels - however as above there's a limit and returning 10mpg would begin to sting after a while. A good ride quality whilst maintaining some handling ability would be a requirement too.
What on earth can someone like myself buy in the future? What do I even replace my current favourite daily driver with in a year or two with? I suspect the answer is to just give up on life and get morbidly obese watching reality TV drinking lager from a can, because even most PHers think it's acceptable to do 90% of your annual milage in FWD diesel engined misery...
That front-wheel-drive BMW thread has really depressed me though. Not so much that they've done it - that was inevitable, but more the attitude of PHers towards daily drivers.
I know I'm in a tiny minority even using Pistonheads. I often feel like a tiny minority within Pistonheads however.
I, like many PHers, have to drive to work and back every day. I have a wife and 2 children and we're completely normal, unremarkable people. The only trouble is, that I like our family cars to drive well.
I don't drive everywhere with the back end hanging out and smoke pouring from the tyres, and I don't like crashing over bumps and potholes. I just like some driver involvement, elegance in the controls, good quality feel and nice, balanced handling. I'm also a little environmentally conscious, not so much about fuel consumption and emissions but more the energy consumption at disposal, and how this affects me. Thus, I like cars without marginal benefits from extremely expensive and highly complex failure modes built in - e.g. electronic suspension and infotainment centres that render the car useless if they fail and prohibitively expensive to diagnose and repair.
I understand that the 98% don't care. I understand that car manufacturers will disappear up their own backsides chasing the 98% and give them what they want.
Where do I go next? The answer isn't "buy a sportscar". I already have sportscars. I like sportscars on the odd occassion that crops up where I can drive them. I need to do sensible things most of the time though, and I do not want to drive something crap every day. I need interior space, but not a lorry. Just a decent sized car with folding rear seats will do. I do not need to compromise the looks and drive in favour of getting a van - that's overweighting the space requirement. At the same time, a little coupe with a small boot would be unfit for purpose. I like petrol engines, prefer natural aspiration and don't mind spending money on fuel if it keeps me away from diesels - however as above there's a limit and returning 10mpg would begin to sting after a while. A good ride quality whilst maintaining some handling ability would be a requirement too.
What on earth can someone like myself buy in the future? What do I even replace my current favourite daily driver with in a year or two with? I suspect the answer is to just give up on life and get morbidly obese watching reality TV drinking lager from a can, because even most PHers think it's acceptable to do 90% of your annual milage in FWD diesel engined misery...
jamieduff1981 said:
Thus, I like cars without marginal benefits from extremely expensive and highly complex failure modes built in - e.g. electronic suspension and infotainment centres that render the car useless if they fail and prohibitively expensive to diagnose and repair.
Where do I go next? The answer isn't "buy a sportscar".
What on earth can someone like myself buy in the future? What do I even replace my current favourite daily driver with in a year or two with?
Is the answer any different to what it's been for the last decade or so? You can't. Nobody makes it. Nobody's made it for years.Where do I go next? The answer isn't "buy a sportscar".
What on earth can someone like myself buy in the future? What do I even replace my current favourite daily driver with in a year or two with?
Yes, there's still sportscars that meet your brief, but they're the exception. There haven't been any non-electronic-alphabetti-spaghetti "normal cars" for _years_. Even Tesco-stripy spec has all the electronic guff behind the scenes, and nobody sells big Tesco-stripy spec cars.
TooMany2cvs said:
and nobody sells big Tesco-stripy spec cars.
I think that's only true in the UK , and then only to a degree (see the Ssangyong Rodius above) presumably because there isn't much of a market for them. I think there are there are plenty of big, budget cars available in other countries.
I drove our Ford Smax pool car recently, if you can ignore the crass interior and donkey of a diesel engine (perhaps they do one with the old Focus ST 5 pot) it has got to be one of the best setup cars in terms of ride, handling and steering I've ever driven.
Other than a slightly gainy response on centre it's difficult to fault it, it even has more delicate steering feel on the limit in the wet than my Evora!
Other than a slightly gainy response on centre it's difficult to fault it, it even has more delicate steering feel on the limit in the wet than my Evora!
Cars have been going downhill since about 2005 IMO, And it now seems virtually impossible to buy a slightly sporty car with tyre profiles over 45 and without planks of wood for suspension. Since CAD Surfacing techniques cars have become prevalent more swoopy and sculpted and as such look like half of them have melted.
Therefore buy something before this time, That's not to say however that there are exceptions of course.
Therefore buy something before this time, That's not to say however that there are exceptions of course.
I have a wife, 2 kids and all the related guff with that. Currently, Mrs 4a4 has an E46 323 (2.5 straight 6). It's not quick, but it's quite torquey. It's very safe, but it's quite heavy. It's a little bit thirsty when pressing on, but is the most reliable car i have ever owned. It has an appetite for wishbones and lolly pop bushes, but now i've fitted some Meyle HD items, it seems a lot more sturdy. The ride is lovely on standard dampers and 16s (205/55/16s!), but still eager to step out (holds beautiful controlled drifts with traction control off!)
I honestly don't know what to get her next - we need more boot room, and maybe better fuel economy, but it's not essential. I'm thinking E46 again, but maybe a wagon, and maybe in a 330d flavour. They don't seem much bigger than a saloon though. Whole world of hurt buying a cheap diesel BMW? Or do i get the 5 series?
I know exactly how you feel mate. I don't want a new car as there's too much to go wrong. Late 90s to early 00s tech seems to be the best. Modern comforts with uncomplicated reliability. I used to be VAG mad, so the idea of A4 or A6 wagon would be familiar ground, but i never had a VAG motor as reliable as our BMW...plus RWD is always a good laugh to have on the drive! My daily is a 944, so the 'family' car needs to be able to take the whole family haha.
I honestly don't know what to get her next - we need more boot room, and maybe better fuel economy, but it's not essential. I'm thinking E46 again, but maybe a wagon, and maybe in a 330d flavour. They don't seem much bigger than a saloon though. Whole world of hurt buying a cheap diesel BMW? Or do i get the 5 series?
I know exactly how you feel mate. I don't want a new car as there's too much to go wrong. Late 90s to early 00s tech seems to be the best. Modern comforts with uncomplicated reliability. I used to be VAG mad, so the idea of A4 or A6 wagon would be familiar ground, but i never had a VAG motor as reliable as our BMW...plus RWD is always a good laugh to have on the drive! My daily is a 944, so the 'family' car needs to be able to take the whole family haha.
Go and buy a really good W124 Mercedes. An estate if you really want to. Avoid Air suspension and 4-matic versions. Look after it. Service it regularly using good quality parts. Rustproof it. It will serve you faithfully for years and years to come. It's quality will shine through and you won't be bothered by pointless technology. And when it reaches the end of its natural life - in about 200 years - send it to Africa where it will carry on giving service until the next ice age.
jamieduff1981 said:
I'm not in the best frame of minds this morning, due to various things going on at the moment.
That front-wheel-drive BMW thread has really depressed me though. Not so much that they've done it - that was inevitable, but more the attitude of PHers towards daily drivers.
I know I'm in a tiny minority even using Pistonheads. I often feel like a tiny minority within Pistonheads however.
I, like many PHers, have to drive to work and back every day. I have a wife and 2 children and we're completely normal, unremarkable people. The only trouble is, that I like our family cars to drive well.
I don't drive everywhere with the back end hanging out and smoke pouring from the tyres, and I don't like crashing over bumps and potholes. I just like some driver involvement, elegance in the controls, good quality feel and nice, balanced handling. I'm also a little environmentally conscious, not so much about fuel consumption and emissions but more the energy consumption at disposal, and how this affects me. Thus, I like cars without marginal benefits from extremely expensive and highly complex failure modes built in - e.g. electronic suspension and infotainment centres that render the car useless if they fail and prohibitively expensive to diagnose and repair.
I understand that the 98% don't care. I understand that car manufacturers will disappear up their own backsides chasing the 98% and give them what they want.
Where do I go next? The answer isn't "buy a sportscar". I already have sportscars. I like sportscars on the odd occassion that crops up where I can drive them. I need to do sensible things most of the time though, and I do not want to drive something crap every day. I need interior space, but not a lorry. Just a decent sized car with folding rear seats will do. I do not need to compromise the looks and drive in favour of getting a van - that's overweighting the space requirement. At the same time, a little coupe with a small boot would be unfit for purpose. I like petrol engines, prefer natural aspiration and don't mind spending money on fuel if it keeps me away from diesels - however as above there's a limit and returning 10mpg would begin to sting after a while. A good ride quality whilst maintaining some handling ability would be a requirement too.
What on earth can someone like myself buy in the future? What do I even replace my current favourite daily driver with in a year or two with? I suspect the answer is to just give up on life and get morbidly obese watching reality TV drinking lager from a can, because even most PHers think it's acceptable to do 90% of your annual milage in FWD diesel engined misery...
A few questions:That front-wheel-drive BMW thread has really depressed me though. Not so much that they've done it - that was inevitable, but more the attitude of PHers towards daily drivers.
I know I'm in a tiny minority even using Pistonheads. I often feel like a tiny minority within Pistonheads however.
I, like many PHers, have to drive to work and back every day. I have a wife and 2 children and we're completely normal, unremarkable people. The only trouble is, that I like our family cars to drive well.
I don't drive everywhere with the back end hanging out and smoke pouring from the tyres, and I don't like crashing over bumps and potholes. I just like some driver involvement, elegance in the controls, good quality feel and nice, balanced handling. I'm also a little environmentally conscious, not so much about fuel consumption and emissions but more the energy consumption at disposal, and how this affects me. Thus, I like cars without marginal benefits from extremely expensive and highly complex failure modes built in - e.g. electronic suspension and infotainment centres that render the car useless if they fail and prohibitively expensive to diagnose and repair.
I understand that the 98% don't care. I understand that car manufacturers will disappear up their own backsides chasing the 98% and give them what they want.
Where do I go next? The answer isn't "buy a sportscar". I already have sportscars. I like sportscars on the odd occassion that crops up where I can drive them. I need to do sensible things most of the time though, and I do not want to drive something crap every day. I need interior space, but not a lorry. Just a decent sized car with folding rear seats will do. I do not need to compromise the looks and drive in favour of getting a van - that's overweighting the space requirement. At the same time, a little coupe with a small boot would be unfit for purpose. I like petrol engines, prefer natural aspiration and don't mind spending money on fuel if it keeps me away from diesels - however as above there's a limit and returning 10mpg would begin to sting after a while. A good ride quality whilst maintaining some handling ability would be a requirement too.
What on earth can someone like myself buy in the future? What do I even replace my current favourite daily driver with in a year or two with? I suspect the answer is to just give up on life and get morbidly obese watching reality TV drinking lager from a can, because even most PHers think it's acceptable to do 90% of your annual milage in FWD diesel engined misery...
- You've admitted you're in a minority even on PH regarding cars, so is it reasonable to expect there to be lots of car choice for you?
- For you, does FWD always mean poor handling/balance because that doesn't match the reviews of some of Ford's FWD products (for example)?
- Why do you need to replace your current favourite daily driver in a year or two? If it is a true favourite, why not invest in keeping it on the road rather than having to choose from a poor selection of new(er) cars?
The RWD thing is mostly because I'm not that great a driver in that I know what I can do and can't do. RWD feels right, and I've never enjoyed anything with powered front wheels. That's not to say all RWD cars have great steering feel - they don't, but whatever it is that makes FWD safe and predictable for 98% of people just doesn't compute in my brain and I drive around fairly slowly afraid of overcommitting in corners.
The current car is 9 years old and has 73k on the clock. I can and do maintain it. It's still on it's original dampers and springs but I renewed most of the bushes last year and it feels very tight like a new car. I'll continue to maintain it. I even had all signs of rust nipped in the bud last summer to the tune of £2000 in the name of longevity. It's still worthless however, being a 9 year old 3.0 petrol so should someone shunt it at 15mph tonight on the way home, it'll be written off and I'll need a new car. My commuting distance is likely to increase to around 60 miles per day soon too, and with the best will in the world, it won't last forever.
I enjoy sports cars and aeroplanes and lots of other expensive, time consuming stuff.
The option of buying ever older (comparitively) cars seems far from the low-hassle answer although maybe (sadly) all that's left. I'll be amazed if I could pick up an E39 5 series, W124 Merc or another Jag that's had as much rejuvination done to make it drive like it should and look like it should. That will boil down to buying a nail and spending most of the money I would have on a newer car restoring it, except that takes a lot of my time that I'd really much rather use to concentrate on my core hobbies.
That Rodius answer above was, I'm sure, tongue in cheek, but clearly not the answer. What I want is a driver's car which is user friendly - the sort of brief the BMW 5-series or Jag S-Type used to meet before they started piping synthetic engine sound through the car stereo, engineering out those pesky steering wheel twitches and running climate control through a computer screen. I strongly prefer RWD because it's the only thing I seem to be able to drive with any feeling of confidence and enjoyment - that doesn't mean I'd enjoy driving any old cack that just happens to be RWD.
On the previous post there was the matter of choice. To answer that question, this is really what the thread is about. I am an automotive irrelevance. I am clearly not who anyone is targetting, irrespective of who that brand's traditional customers may be perceived to be. My concern is that there will soon be absolute nothing which the family man who enjoys driving can buy for day-to-day use. On the BMW thread someone commented that there will always be RWD driver's cars. That's probably true, but I predict that they will rapidly be consigned to the realms of frivilous toys such as Caterhams and sub-supercars - i.e. Sunday cars. Even proper supercars are abandoning RWD in favour of AWD - the Top Gear crowd at work again by shredding that Zenvo on Sunday for being an 1100bhp RWD car which couldn't get round a track in the pissing wet with the traction control off any faster than a Ford Focus, as though that would be a surprise.
The current car is 9 years old and has 73k on the clock. I can and do maintain it. It's still on it's original dampers and springs but I renewed most of the bushes last year and it feels very tight like a new car. I'll continue to maintain it. I even had all signs of rust nipped in the bud last summer to the tune of £2000 in the name of longevity. It's still worthless however, being a 9 year old 3.0 petrol so should someone shunt it at 15mph tonight on the way home, it'll be written off and I'll need a new car. My commuting distance is likely to increase to around 60 miles per day soon too, and with the best will in the world, it won't last forever.
I enjoy sports cars and aeroplanes and lots of other expensive, time consuming stuff.
The option of buying ever older (comparitively) cars seems far from the low-hassle answer although maybe (sadly) all that's left. I'll be amazed if I could pick up an E39 5 series, W124 Merc or another Jag that's had as much rejuvination done to make it drive like it should and look like it should. That will boil down to buying a nail and spending most of the money I would have on a newer car restoring it, except that takes a lot of my time that I'd really much rather use to concentrate on my core hobbies.
That Rodius answer above was, I'm sure, tongue in cheek, but clearly not the answer. What I want is a driver's car which is user friendly - the sort of brief the BMW 5-series or Jag S-Type used to meet before they started piping synthetic engine sound through the car stereo, engineering out those pesky steering wheel twitches and running climate control through a computer screen. I strongly prefer RWD because it's the only thing I seem to be able to drive with any feeling of confidence and enjoyment - that doesn't mean I'd enjoy driving any old cack that just happens to be RWD.
On the previous post there was the matter of choice. To answer that question, this is really what the thread is about. I am an automotive irrelevance. I am clearly not who anyone is targetting, irrespective of who that brand's traditional customers may be perceived to be. My concern is that there will soon be absolute nothing which the family man who enjoys driving can buy for day-to-day use. On the BMW thread someone commented that there will always be RWD driver's cars. That's probably true, but I predict that they will rapidly be consigned to the realms of frivilous toys such as Caterhams and sub-supercars - i.e. Sunday cars. Even proper supercars are abandoning RWD in favour of AWD - the Top Gear crowd at work again by shredding that Zenvo on Sunday for being an 1100bhp RWD car which couldn't get round a track in the pissing wet with the traction control off any faster than a Ford Focus, as though that would be a surprise.
Edited by jamieduff1981 on Tuesday 18th February 11:18
Edited by jamieduff1981 on Tuesday 18th February 11:19
jamieduff1981 said:
that doesn't mean I'd enjoy driving any old cack that just happens to be RWD.
And yet, quite probably, you're condemning FWD on the basis of "driving any old cack that just happens to be FWD". There are some very good FWD cars. There are a heck of a lot of very mediocre FWD cars. Back when RWD used to be common, there used to be a lot of very mediocre RWD cars. The only difference is that FWD is now the default, and only "enthusiast" cars are RWD, so the average RWD car now is a very different beast to the average FWD car.There are RWD exceptions, of course - mostly agricultural like that Pping-Pong offence-against-styling.
TooMany2cvs said:
And yet, quite probably, you're condemning FWD on the basis of "driving any old cack that just happens to be FWD". There are some very good FWD cars. There are a heck of a lot of very mediocre FWD cars. Back when RWD used to be common, there used to be a lot of very mediocre RWD cars. The only difference is that FWD is now the default, and only "enthusiast" cars are RWD, so the average RWD car now is a very different beast to the average FWD car.
I disagree with that; that's not the only difference. RWD is (for me, I don't claim to speak for anyone else) a fundamentally better setup. That is to say, if a manufacturer put the same amount of effort into making a FWD drivers car and a RWD driver's car, I'd always prefer the RWD one. It's not the only thing that makes a driver's car - there are some woeful RWD cars but that doesn't change the fact that, for me, RWD is superior to FWD in much the same way that petrol is superior to diesel despite the fact that good diesel engines are vastly better than bad petrol ones.
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