Tuesday 18th February 2014

Alpine versus Caterham: PH Blog

Rumours of creative tension between design teams - can such shared projects ever work?

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Last week Autocar wrote of 'creative tensions' between the teams at Alpine andCaterham working on the collaborative mid-engined sports car project. The implication was that the departure of enthusiastic Renault boss Carlos Tavares had stalled momentum on the Renault side of the deal, resulting in indecision and conflicts about the final design direction.

Renault: 'Er, we will, 'ow you say, do the styling...'

We asked Renault for the official line and were told "Renault does not comment on rumours about future models. However, we can say that it is standard procedure for Renault to run customer clinics with future products. As a result, sometimes, we make some evolutions to the design. This is a very normal process for new product design."

When I met the senior Renaultsport and Alpine project chiefs, including Tavares and chief engineer Jean-Pascal Dauce it was striking how little awareness of current Caterham products the French side of the partnership had. I'd expected Dauce and his colleagues to know Sevens inside out but instead got Gallic shrugs and recollection that someone at the Renaultsport factory had built a crossflow a few years back. You could speculate from that Caterham might be struggling to have its voice heard in the corporate world of Renault but Dauce's passion and personal automotive tastes suggest the project is in safe hands.

Subaru on the left, hang on, the right, er...

It got me thinking though; can these kind of shared projects ever really succeed? We'll be seeing more of them for sure, whether it's the forthcoming Mazda/Alfa Romeo tie-up on the next MX-5/Spider or rumoured collaboration between BMW and Toyota on a new range of lightweight sports cars.

Although the GT86/BRZ is officially a joint project and built at Subaru's factory Toyota hasn't had too much difficulty asserting 'ownership' of the car. It's not difficult to find enthusiasm for a cheap (OK, discuss...) rear-wheel drive coupe among the likes of us but it's rather more tricky to tell the Subaru and Toyota versions apart. They do have subtlely different characters but the two are pretty much interchangeable to most eyes. Simply choose the badge that appeals more, or pick the dealer with the most favourable deals, and skid your way to rear-driven nirvana.

Identity can be maintained on related cars

Toyota might have a tougher fight on its hands with BMW when it comes to staking a claim on the project and you'd have to expect a much clearer split along brand lines between the two designs when they do eventually emerge. The Alfa/Mazda partnership is an interesting one too, emotionally engaged fans of both probably rather hoping for clearly defined identity rather than a BRZ/GT86 rebadge.

Can it work? Audi's management of the R8 and Gallardo has skilfully put emotional distance between the two. Though a wander along the Lamborghini production line reveals a lot more components with Audi AG/Made In Germany stamped on them and crates from the Neckarsulm plant that also builds the R8 than Gallardo owners might realise. Or want to acknowledge.

From a purely product point of view (let's leave the business case...) the template for building a sports car with a shared platform but distinct brand image would be the Lotus Elise and Vauxhall VX220. For the forthcoming Alpine you can put Caterham and Renault in the respective roles there, the Elise selling on the racing heritage and traditions of a famous badge while the latter saw a surprisingly hardcore sports car sharing showroom space with everyday superminis and MPVs.

VX220 and Elise show the formula can work

To this day I'd find it hard to choose between the two on purely emotive grounds - I prefer the VX220's styling (and affordability) but would prefer to be seated behind a Lotus badge. That gap will be closer with Caterham and Alpine; which means more to you will probably depend on which side of the Channel you reside but you have to hope there's enough of a character difference between the two to inspire similar dilemmas to that offered by the VX220 and Elise in years to come.

Dan

[Sources: Autocar]

 

 

 

 

 

[framerateuk]

I can imagine the tensions.

Having worked with/for a multinational French company, it's quite eye-opening to see ho different their business practices are. Aside from the styling of the car, I would guess these differences are causing more problems to the relationship than anything else. They'll be slow to make changes while Caterham will be able to work quickly. It'll cause frustration at both ends...

[Impasse]

Is this just a face saving way of building up to the announcement that the project has been cancelled?

[j90gta]

I'd heard that the Caterham had been designed by Lotus, but there was some sort of dispute between the Malaysian owners of both companies. The preference within Caterham was to go with the Lotus design but the owners of Lotus would not sanction it because they did not get on with Tony Fernandez.
These are indeed very worrying times for Lotus; huge losses piling up and building no cars for sale (when did someone last buy a new Lotus?).

[suffolk009]

The VX220. Nice enough car, not helped by the idiotic advertising campaign. It's tricky to shake off something this bad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=od-kenmFD_I

[Impasse]

j90gta said:

These are indeed very worrying times for Lotus; huge losses piling up and building no cars for sale (when did someone last buy a new Lotus?).

Your news is out of date. They are in no way on Easy Street but they are looking a lot more healthy than this time last year.
Sales are up (mainly overseas) and costs are down. With luck they'll have a few quid left over to afford a decent PR department.

[Charlie Michael]

suffolk009 said:

The VX220. Nice enough car, not helped by the idiotic advertising campaign. It's tricky to shake off something this bad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=od-kenmFD_I

I liked that...

[Marwood79]

... I don't think there needs to be too much debate on the design front. Just build the blue car in the top picture and get on with it...

[JohnT993]

Personally I wouldn't fancy the bmw toyota tie up... Japanese firms like to do things their own way!

[redroadster]

It may never happen, they would be better off going it alone buying in the items they can,t make f can,t afford to make and this way they will have a true individual product with no constraints from alpine/renault kit car makers can do it surely caterham with there experiance and money can, (yes i know they sell kits).

[woof]

redroadster said:

It may never happen, they would be better off going it alone buying in the items they can,t make f can,t afford to make and this way they will have a true individual product with no constraints from alpine/renault kit car makers can do it surely caterham with there experiance and money can, (yes i know they sell kits).

This but remove "may" and replace with "will"

[j90gta]

Impasse said:

Your news is out of date. They are in no way on Easy Street but they are looking a lot more healthy than this time last year.
Sales are up (mainly overseas) and costs are down. With luck they'll have a few quid left over to afford a decent PR department.

A mate works at Lotus Lightweight Structures in Worcester - morale is on the floor - they are just not building anything. Accumulated losses are well over £100 million - there is no investement going on. They have had several notable visitors recently, Morgan and TVR included, but nothing has come about. As advised a Caterenault has been designed by Lotus but the chairman of DRB-Hicom, the Malaysian parent company of Lotus, won't allow it to be built because of a personal dispute with Tony Fernandez. Some of the best automotive engineers in the world are being prevented from doing what they are good at. Such a shame

[Toaster]

framerateuk said:

I can imagine the tensions.

Having worked with/for a multinational French company, it's quite eye-opening to see ho different their business practices are. Aside from the styling of the car, I would guess these differences are causing more problems to the relationship than anything else. They'll be slow to make changes while Caterham will be able to work quickly. It'll cause frustration at both ends...

They need a Guru like Peter Checkland he would sort out the cultural and working differences

Another point here is Renault have created thousands of designs over the years Caterham picked up a design from Lotus and ran with it from 1972 so how many actual new designs have Caterham done (in road car terms) = 0 so I would place my money on an Alpine designed by Renualt

Edited by Toaster on Tuesday 18th February 15:30

[Toaster]

j90gta said:

huge losses piling up and building no cars for sale (when did someone last buy a new Lotus?).

Quite a few people actually most are not sold in the UK and Lotus are on a recruitment drive

[Mr Whippy]

Marwood79 said:

... I don't think there needs to be too much debate on the design front. Just build the blue car in the top picture and get on with it...

Exactly.

The concept is fapping amazing. Just build that and you're onto a winner in my view!

[delays]

This would probably serve as a cross-cultural management class case study.

Hasn't the design of that Aero Caterham concept - the one with the big gob - been torn up and started again? Perhaps this may be delaying things, I can only imagine there was a new "family face" that might need entirely re-imagining.

Projects across borders and cultures, between different businesses are notoriously difficult, and I think the car industry rarely attempts them these days - beyond different national SBUs within the same umbrella group.

Best of luck to them.

[Ozzie Osmond]

I imagine that Tony Fernandez has "talked a good game" but the French have rapidly found there's no substance to back it up.

[Mr Whippy]

delays said:

I can only imagine there was a new "family face" that might need entirely re-imagining.

Family faces shouldn't really be needed for these kinds of cars.

A design language yes, but a face? Not really at all I don't think.

Fair enough for your Mondeo or Astra, and maybe into your BMW and Merc sports cars, but beyond that does anyone really care?!


Another area where managers and marketers are probably getting too caught up in the world of the business of mainstream cars and missing the point. No doubt many automotive businesses have fantastic designers who then have their work changed by people with no idea.

[delays]

Mr Whippy said:

Family faces shouldn't really be needed for these kinds of cars.

A design language yes, but a face? Not really at all I don't think.

Fair enough for your Mondeo or Astra, and maybe into your BMW and Merc sports cars, but beyond that does anyone really care?!


Another area where managers and marketers are probably getting too caught up in the world of the business of mainstream cars and missing the point. No doubt many automotive businesses have fantastic designers who then have their work changed by people with no idea.

Caterham needs a family design language like it needs an F1 team and a series of motorcycles. My statement was entirely conjecture, but based upon the fact that priorities appear slightly skewed post-takeover.

[Mr Whippy]

delays said:

Mr Whippy said:

Family faces shouldn't really be needed for these kinds of cars.

A design language yes, but a face? Not really at all I don't think.

Fair enough for your Mondeo or Astra, and maybe into your BMW and Merc sports cars, but beyond that does anyone really care?!


Another area where managers and marketers are probably getting too caught up in the world of the business of mainstream cars and missing the point. No doubt many automotive businesses have fantastic designers who then have their work changed by people with no idea.

Caterham needs a family design language like it needs an F1 team and a series of motorcycles. My statement was entirely conjecture, but based upon the fact that priorities appear slightly skewed post-takeover.

Exactly hehe... but your conjecture is probably closer to the truth than we think.

[DreadUK]

I suspect all these collaborative projects are more to do with marketing than car production. Renault could make any car they wanted, but adding some 'British' branding and kudos will open new doors for them.

Caterham don't have anything that Renault don't have in terms of technology/design abilities/racing knowledge but Renault have the big marketing bucks. Virtually all global manufacturers are looking for the niche markets going back generations: Alpine/Renault themselves, Shelby/Cobra, Nissan/Alfa. It's nothing more than cross market pollination and brand marketing.

What consumers end up with is usually a clumsy Frankenstien of a car that makes us feel good because the marketing blurb tells us we should feel good. What genius handed the styling of a car to Nissan and production to Alfa? Even us numpty public didn't fall for that one.

Whoever sold the idea, I want to employ him/her because that's the best salesman in the history of salesmen!