Is PH a bit too nostaligic ?
Discussion
In the BMW thread, so many negative views of modern BMW's "I wouldnt have any BMW built after 1990" etc etc, in the Ferrari thread "I am looking for the right Ferrari" and then rattling on about Phil Hill and ancient old Ferraris, jumpers for goalposts, isnt it, marvellous (there you go, a nostaligic fast show quote)
Any attempt at progress, unless it involves more power is regarded with somewhere between extreme scepticism and Luddism, EV's are regarded as a flash in the pan novelty.
Ok, we all like a bit of nostalgia but on here a lot of it is almost religous in its nature and sometimes seems like points scoring to show how well informed people are.
I suspect some are driving round in "icons" that drive them bats
t with rust, breakdowns, massive expense and general old car crabiness, probably craving a working heater or windows that dont need manual intervention.
This isnt a old cars = bad thing, they arent but can we at least acknowledge the future will happen and perhaps wallow less in the past, there will have been some similar old farts wibbling on about not being happy when all this stuff was introduced and how Senna was a bit of an upstart. I think the past is nice and safe and cosy as its a known quantity, its human nature to worry about the future but lets not turn PH into a hostrical re-enacment society !
Any attempt at progress, unless it involves more power is regarded with somewhere between extreme scepticism and Luddism, EV's are regarded as a flash in the pan novelty.
Ok, we all like a bit of nostalgia but on here a lot of it is almost religous in its nature and sometimes seems like points scoring to show how well informed people are.
I suspect some are driving round in "icons" that drive them bats
t with rust, breakdowns, massive expense and general old car crabiness, probably craving a working heater or windows that dont need manual intervention.This isnt a old cars = bad thing, they arent but can we at least acknowledge the future will happen and perhaps wallow less in the past, there will have been some similar old farts wibbling on about not being happy when all this stuff was introduced and how Senna was a bit of an upstart. I think the past is nice and safe and cosy as its a known quantity, its human nature to worry about the future but lets not turn PH into a hostrical re-enacment society !
PH itself (i.e. the site)? No, most of the news articles are about new stuff, not old stuff.
The forums? People like to talk about what they know about. Naturally people know more about current and older stuff than they do about new stuff. It does seem many dislike change regardless but that's probably a fair reflection of society in general. The early-adopters are always in a minority.
The forums? People like to talk about what they know about. Naturally people know more about current and older stuff than they do about new stuff. It does seem many dislike change regardless but that's probably a fair reflection of society in general. The early-adopters are always in a minority.
I hate this sort of thread. There are "reply to topic" options and formatting help available. And swear words automatically filtered out, it is the equivalent of ESC that can't be turned off. Soon posts will write themselves. I miss the good old days when pistonheads was written on slate tablets and you had to chisel your response. etc etc 
Yes OP, this forum can be a bit King Canute ish but maybe we'll be doing the same in a few years and reminiscing about how small and fun the Porsche Macan was
Yes OP, this forum can be a bit King Canute ish but maybe we'll be doing the same in a few years and reminiscing about how small and fun the Porsche Macan was
Yes, staggeringly nostalgic.
The number of moaners and groaners, "It's not like the good old days" never ceases to amaze.
Having said that, I find myself nostalgic for the days when people with a bit of cash spent it on sportscars rather than hulking 4x4s. Happily there are still some great sportscars out there if you look for them. After all, that's where PH started.
The number of moaners and groaners, "It's not like the good old days" never ceases to amaze.
Having said that, I find myself nostalgic for the days when people with a bit of cash spent it on sportscars rather than hulking 4x4s. Happily there are still some great sportscars out there if you look for them. After all, that's where PH started.
For me the OP has mixed-up a few points.
1) his example of 1990s BMWs is probably that manufacturing quality has varied since then, both in the quality of individual parts and in the way the car was put together as a whole. BMW made their name with cars like the E30, and what has happened since is down to debate.
More importantly
2) modern cars insulate the driver more and more from the road - there are exceptions - but I think you are mixing up nostalgia with simplicity and driver-involvement.
I don't like being insulated from the road. I like to have the maximum input into what happens, every trip.
I'm lucky enough not to do commuting at the moment, but when I did (a few years ago now) I chose a Puma 16v 1.7, because it was the right compromise for me between driver involvement and arriving at work with dry clothes.
Everyone needs a car to do something slightly different, but a petrolhead will make compromises away from comfort and more towards involvement.
Modern cars don't do that for me.
1) his example of 1990s BMWs is probably that manufacturing quality has varied since then, both in the quality of individual parts and in the way the car was put together as a whole. BMW made their name with cars like the E30, and what has happened since is down to debate.
More importantly
2) modern cars insulate the driver more and more from the road - there are exceptions - but I think you are mixing up nostalgia with simplicity and driver-involvement.
I don't like being insulated from the road. I like to have the maximum input into what happens, every trip.
I'm lucky enough not to do commuting at the moment, but when I did (a few years ago now) I chose a Puma 16v 1.7, because it was the right compromise for me between driver involvement and arriving at work with dry clothes.
Everyone needs a car to do something slightly different, but a petrolhead will make compromises away from comfort and more towards involvement.
Modern cars don't do that for me.
Edited by Orangecurry on Wednesday 19th February 12:08
Agree as above, though I wouldn't say the forums were overly nostalgic no.
To me, and why I'm here, is because cars are more than A to B pieces of equipment. Car manufacturers these days have to try and build cars that still have soul, while battling EU directives such as fuel economy, noise, or safety (Just look at a modern Peugeot with it's gob-full-of-plastic and you can see that the design decisions are heavily safety based). The biggest element for car manufacturers is of course, profit. I can understand why people would make comments like you mentioned about a modern BMW, because they've tried to design something that is trying to suit everyone and ends up looking a bit generic. They're still very nice though...
Just look at the GT86 though. It's affordable, looks good, great fun and designed with "soul". I think that given the above point, it is harder for designers and car companies to take risks; and when cars like the GT86 crop up in a world of ever-more generic designs, I'm not surprised that some PHers think that it doesn't happen often enough.
To me, and why I'm here, is because cars are more than A to B pieces of equipment. Car manufacturers these days have to try and build cars that still have soul, while battling EU directives such as fuel economy, noise, or safety (Just look at a modern Peugeot with it's gob-full-of-plastic and you can see that the design decisions are heavily safety based). The biggest element for car manufacturers is of course, profit. I can understand why people would make comments like you mentioned about a modern BMW, because they've tried to design something that is trying to suit everyone and ends up looking a bit generic. They're still very nice though...
Just look at the GT86 though. It's affordable, looks good, great fun and designed with "soul". I think that given the above point, it is harder for designers and car companies to take risks; and when cars like the GT86 crop up in a world of ever-more generic designs, I'm not surprised that some PHers think that it doesn't happen often enough.
Nostalgia is one way to put it. I know I'm guilty myself.
I won't speak for anyone else but I enjoy cars and I enjoy driving. I don't enjoy all aspects of all cars nor all aspects of all driving. I would not feel enthusiastic about driving a Renault Scenic in stop-start traffic, but I would be equally enthusiastic about driving a Bentley Blower with goggles on as I would be to take a V12 Vantage to the south of France.
Although there are vastly differing opinions about what makes a good car on Pistonheads, a common theme is that we all know what we like and tend to resist the 95% of non-enthusiasts out-voting us in marketing surveys and seeing elements which we value being prioritised below things we don't value, or indeed see activities we like doing replaced by activities which we are indifferent too.
I won't speak for anyone else but I enjoy cars and I enjoy driving. I don't enjoy all aspects of all cars nor all aspects of all driving. I would not feel enthusiastic about driving a Renault Scenic in stop-start traffic, but I would be equally enthusiastic about driving a Bentley Blower with goggles on as I would be to take a V12 Vantage to the south of France.
Although there are vastly differing opinions about what makes a good car on Pistonheads, a common theme is that we all know what we like and tend to resist the 95% of non-enthusiasts out-voting us in marketing surveys and seeing elements which we value being prioritised below things we don't value, or indeed see activities we like doing replaced by activities which we are indifferent too.
I can certainly see your point.
Using your BMW example and as demonstrated by numerous threads on here only a small number of people are able to grasp the current line up with 1/2/3/4/5/6/7 X1/3/5 Z? i've probably forgotten some variations.
Also I doubt that in 20 years time people will be reminiscing or planning a restoration project on their E46 320D M sport the way some people will happily rebuild a E21 316i nor will there be the demand like there is for E30s currently.
Could it be that since more and more often cars are referred to as white goods and more people use 2-3 year leases that people simply don't become attached to new cars the same way that they used to.. Buying a brand new car outright used to mean that people would hold onto them for far longer so maybe that is why when you ask someone 20 years later about a car they had for a decade it generates far fonder memories of being young etc than for example asking them about their new lease car which will be given back in a few months.
Using your BMW example and as demonstrated by numerous threads on here only a small number of people are able to grasp the current line up with 1/2/3/4/5/6/7 X1/3/5 Z? i've probably forgotten some variations.
Also I doubt that in 20 years time people will be reminiscing or planning a restoration project on their E46 320D M sport the way some people will happily rebuild a E21 316i nor will there be the demand like there is for E30s currently.
Could it be that since more and more often cars are referred to as white goods and more people use 2-3 year leases that people simply don't become attached to new cars the same way that they used to.. Buying a brand new car outright used to mean that people would hold onto them for far longer so maybe that is why when you ask someone 20 years later about a car they had for a decade it generates far fonder memories of being young etc than for example asking them about their new lease car which will be given back in a few months.
okie592 said:
Old stubborn people don't like change.
Let's all talk about how great old cars with rwd are and then when someone makes the same things aka the gt86 let's slag it off for having old tech
YOu're right that happens but I don't think it's the same posters who contribute both aspects.Let's all talk about how great old cars with rwd are and then when someone makes the same things aka the gt86 let's slag it off for having old tech
For example, that Zenvo got shredded on Top Gear on Sunday for being old-tech and slower than a Focus round a track in the pouring rain with traction control turned off. I'll bet it's far more fun to drive than a lot of the "proper" supercars currently on the market. The price seems hard to justify, granted. I'm sure many more people will simply see a steel chassis car with lots of power and passive suspension as old-hat and nothing interesting though. Personally, I like that. I see supercars as useless toys. The only thing they're good for is having fun and showing off. If the fun goes away that just leaves a car aimed at w
kers.
Well, let's take this thing to it's ultimate conclusion - the car that drives itself. That's what governments and carmakes want us to have, and where development is heading.
It's also the exact antithesis of what PH is about.
In the meantime, communication between driver and car is being removed layer by layer, and sold to 'enthusiasts' with 'it's faster along the Nordschleife' - well that does me a lot of good next time I want to enjoy myself in a car on public roads.
This in a society that is hellbent on removing personal responsibility and personal choice in favour of a one size fits all approach, and where 'sustainability' means coercing people into keeping to buy new stuff tha'ts increasingly trivial, but 'greener' than the old stuff we have that's perfectly good because it uses a little less energy in a standardised bench test.
I see the direction in which the great unwashed are heading, and I decide not to go on the same train as them. That makes me not so much nostalgic as someone who likes to forge their own path.
It's also the exact antithesis of what PH is about.
In the meantime, communication between driver and car is being removed layer by layer, and sold to 'enthusiasts' with 'it's faster along the Nordschleife' - well that does me a lot of good next time I want to enjoy myself in a car on public roads.
This in a society that is hellbent on removing personal responsibility and personal choice in favour of a one size fits all approach, and where 'sustainability' means coercing people into keeping to buy new stuff tha'ts increasingly trivial, but 'greener' than the old stuff we have that's perfectly good because it uses a little less energy in a standardised bench test.
I see the direction in which the great unwashed are heading, and I decide not to go on the same train as them. That makes me not so much nostalgic as someone who likes to forge their own path.
jhonn said:
Re. old stuff - 'if they were that good they would still be making them.' A simplistic view maybe - but unless an older product has a unique or currently unavailable feature or characteristic, I just don't see the attraction.
I think that's why many PH'rs are referred to as nostalgic because many older cars have the unique/unavailable feature of steering feel and driver involvementGassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff