Koenigsegg Agera R P1, LF, 918?

[leeson660]

(subject was supposed to be Koenigsegg Agera R > P1, LF, 918? but the > was omitted for some reason)

My apologies if I'm completely missing the point here...

I watched the Harris P1 vid and have dipped in and out of all the 918, LF, P1 hype. Harris was absolutely blown away by the P1 straight line performance and a lot of talk has been about straight line performance of the LF vs P1 etc.

Why doesn't the Agera R never seem get a mention? Unless I'm mistaken this absolute animal would blow the P1 into next week in a straight line. I have no idea what would be quicker around a circuit but I cant see there being a huge difference in the hands of a professional driver.

I appreciate the P1 is a technical showcase and its about the integration of electric motors etc but it just puzzles me why the Agera R doesnt seem to get any PH coverage or even a Harris vid? In my opinion its king of the mountain!

I may be talking complete rubbish here. There probably is a Harris vid and I've probably missed a massive debate on this in which case I apologise and just ignore me

[harryowl]

The p1 is a second quicker to 124, and develops twice the downforce at 160mph. The koenigsegg wouldn't stand a chance round a track.

[leeson660]

harryowl said:

The p1 is a second quicker to 124, and develops twice the downforce at 160mph. The koenigsegg wouldn't stand a chance round a track.

Isn't the Agera R 2 seconds quicker to 186mph though? Rolling start I cant see how the P1 would get anywhere near it?

I'm sure your right ref the track though, wonder if they could bolt a big wing on the Agera R

[Streetrod]

leeson660 said:

(subject was supposed to be Koenigsegg Agera R > P1, LF, 918? but the > was omitted for some reason)

My apologies if I'm completely missing the point here...

I watched the Harris P1 vid and have dipped in and out of all the 918, LF, P1 hype. Harris was absolutely blown away by the P1 straight line performance and a lot of talk has been about straight line performance of the LF vs P1 etc.

Why doesn't the Agera R never seem get a mention? Unless I'm mistaken this absolute animal would blow the P1 into next week in a straight line. I have no idea what would be quicker around a circuit but I cant see there being a huge difference in the hands of a professional driver.

I appreciate the P1 is a technical showcase and its about the integration of electric motors etc but it just puzzles me why the Agera R doesnt seem to get any PH coverage or even a Harris vid? In my opinion its king of the mountain!

I may be talking complete rubbish here. There probably is a Harris vid and I've probably missed a massive debate on this in which case I apologise and just ignore me

The Egg seems to find itself in an odd position; personally I think they are chasing the wrong bench marks. A recent claim about their latest car says it will in theory hit 279 mph if they can find a tyre capable. There’s your first problem, who is going to help develop such a tyre for a manufacture who has built less than 110 cars in over tens years of production. And even if such a tyre existed they have no venue willing to allow them to make the attempt.

As you have said the Egg is a monster in a straight line, but that is a very limited performance criteria, I have helped build many a street based dragster that would humble an Egg in a straight line. Spend a day at a run what you brung meeting at Santa Pod if you don’t believe me.

Koenigseggs continued hunt for more HP I again feels is a bit of a fools errand as it just cant be deployed through a 2WD chassis without massive traction control intervention.

As for circuit times that has always been the question with the Eggs. When I spoke to the factory early last year about an attempt on the Ring record they told me they were thinking about it, so far nothing has been heard since.

The Egg is a wonderful car, over the last few years the build quality has hit the very top end and can be classed as one of the best out there. The problem is that the market just does not take it seriously.

As for Chris Harris, he famously did a review of the Agera for EVO magazine and slammed it. But his is only one opinion

[leeson660]

Streetrod said:

leeson660 said:

(subject was supposed to be Koenigsegg Agera R > P1, LF, 918? but the > was omitted for some reason)

My apologies if I'm completely missing the point here...

I watched the Harris P1 vid and have dipped in and out of all the 918, LF, P1 hype. Harris was absolutely blown away by the P1 straight line performance and a lot of talk has been about straight line performance of the LF vs P1 etc.

Why doesn't the Agera R never seem get a mention? Unless I'm mistaken this absolute animal would blow the P1 into next week in a straight line. I have no idea what would be quicker around a circuit but I cant see there being a huge difference in the hands of a professional driver.

I appreciate the P1 is a technical showcase and its about the integration of electric motors etc but it just puzzles me why the Agera R doesnt seem to get any PH coverage or even a Harris vid? In my opinion its king of the mountain!

I may be talking complete rubbish here. There probably is a Harris vid and I've probably missed a massive debate on this in which case I apologise and just ignore me

The Egg seems to find itself in an odd position; personally I think they are chasing the wrong bench marks. A recent claim about their latest car says it will in theory hit 279 mph if they can find a tyre capable. There’s your first problem, who is going to help develop such a tyre for a manufacture who has built less than 110 cars in over tens years of production. And even if such a tyre existed they have no venue willing to allow them to make the attempt.

As you have said the Egg is a monster in a straight line, but that is a very limited performance criteria, I have helped build many a street based dragster that would humble an Egg in a straight line. Spend a day at a run what you brung meeting at Santa Pod if you don’t believe me.

Koenigseggs continued hunt for more HP I again feels is a bit of a fools errand as it just cant be deployed through a 2WD chassis without massive traction control intervention.

As for circuit times that has always been the question with the Eggs. When I spoke to the factory early last year about an attempt on the Ring record they told me they were thinking about it, so far nothing has been heard since.

The Egg is a wonderful car, over the last few years the build quality has hit the very top end and can be classed as one of the best out there. The problem is that the market just does not take it seriously.

As for Chris Harris, he famously did a review of the Agera for EVO magazine and slammed it. But his is only one opinion

Fair points well made

[Pommygranite]

I recall the Evo review by harris and that he loved it as it was so much better than he expected it to be.

[GALLARDOGUY]

Streetrod said:

As for Chris Harris, he famously did a review of the Agera for EVO magazine and slammed it. But his is only one opinion

I remember that. Seemed like very lazy journalism. Akin to the Zenvo and Top Gear, he really didn't seem to give it a fair crack of the whip.

[Streetrod]

Just to add that I am not totally biased please find this video to balance the augument

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUfkyMCDYhU

[rigga]

leeson660 said:

Streetrod said:

leeson660 said:

(subject was supposed to be Koenigsegg Agera R > P1, LF, 918? but the > was omitted for some reason)

My apologies if I'm completely missing the point here...

I watched the Harris P1 vid and have dipped in and out of all the 918, LF, P1 hype. Harris was absolutely blown away by the P1 straight line performance and a lot of talk has been about straight line performance of the LF vs P1 etc.

Why doesn't the Agera R never seem get a mention? Unless I'm mistaken this absolute animal would blow the P1 into next week in a straight line. I have no idea what would be quicker around a circuit but I cant see there being a huge difference in the hands of a professional driver.

I appreciate the P1 is a technical showcase and its about the integration of electric motors etc but it just puzzles me why the Agera R doesnt seem to get any PH coverage or even a Harris vid? In my opinion its king of the mountain!

I may be talking complete rubbish here. There probably is a Harris vid and I've probably missed a massive debate on this in which case I apologise and just ignore me

The Egg seems to find itself in an odd position; personally I think they are chasing the wrong bench marks. A recent claim about their latest car says it will in theory hit 279 mph if they can find a tyre capable. There’s your first problem, who is going to help develop such a tyre for a manufacture who has built less than 110 cars in over tens years of production. And even if such a tyre existed they have no venue willing to allow them to make the attempt.

As you have said the Egg is a monster in a straight line, but that is a very limited performance criteria, I have helped build many a street based dragster that would humble an Egg in a straight line. Spend a day at a run what you brung meeting at Santa Pod if you don’t believe me.

Koenigseggs continued hunt for more HP I again feels is a bit of a fools errand as it just cant be deployed through a 2WD chassis without massive traction control intervention.

As for circuit times that has always been the question with the Eggs. When I spoke to the factory early last year about an attempt on the Ring record they told me they were thinking about it, so far nothing has been heard since.

The Egg is a wonderful car, over the last few years the build quality has hit the very top end and can be classed as one of the best out there. The problem is that the market just does not take it seriously.

As for Chris Harris, he famously did a review of the Agera for EVO magazine and slammed it. But his is only one opinion

Fair points well made

Agreed, very good points, but IF I was ever in the financial position to consider any of the above car's, the egg would be the one, can't even say why, but its mental and appeals to me more than the others.

[leeson660]

rigga said:

leeson660 said:

Streetrod said:

leeson660 said:

(subject was supposed to be Koenigsegg Agera R > P1, LF, 918? but the > was omitted for some reason)

My apologies if I'm completely missing the point here...

I watched the Harris P1 vid and have dipped in and out of all the 918, LF, P1 hype. Harris was absolutely blown away by the P1 straight line performance and a lot of talk has been about straight line performance of the LF vs P1 etc.

Why doesn't the Agera R never seem get a mention? Unless I'm mistaken this absolute animal would blow the P1 into next week in a straight line. I have no idea what would be quicker around a circuit but I cant see there being a huge difference in the hands of a professional driver.

I appreciate the P1 is a technical showcase and its about the integration of electric motors etc but it just puzzles me why the Agera R doesnt seem to get any PH coverage or even a Harris vid? In my opinion its king of the mountain!

I may be talking complete rubbish here. There probably is a Harris vid and I've probably missed a massive debate on this in which case I apologise and just ignore me

The Egg seems to find itself in an odd position; personally I think they are chasing the wrong bench marks. A recent claim about their latest car says it will in theory hit 279 mph if they can find a tyre capable. There’s your first problem, who is going to help develop such a tyre for a manufacture who has built less than 110 cars in over tens years of production. And even if such a tyre existed they have no venue willing to allow them to make the attempt.

As you have said the Egg is a monster in a straight line, but that is a very limited performance criteria, I have helped build many a street based dragster that would humble an Egg in a straight line. Spend a day at a run what you brung meeting at Santa Pod if you don’t believe me.

Koenigseggs continued hunt for more HP I again feels is a bit of a fools errand as it just cant be deployed through a 2WD chassis without massive traction control intervention.

As for circuit times that has always been the question with the Eggs. When I spoke to the factory early last year about an attempt on the Ring record they told me they were thinking about it, so far nothing has been heard since.

The Egg is a wonderful car, over the last few years the build quality has hit the very top end and can be classed as one of the best out there. The problem is that the market just does not take it seriously.

As for Chris Harris, he famously did a review of the Agera for EVO magazine and slammed it. But his is only one opinion

Fair points well made

Agreed, very good points, but IF I was ever in the financial position to consider any of the above car's, the egg would be the one, can't even say why, but its mental and appeals to me more than the others.

Couldn't agree more. Just in that video posted above the sound of the thing at full chat and the savage wild nature of the car just is what its all about for me.

[Tom73]

Streetrod said:

The Egg seems to find itself in an odd position; personally I think they are chasing the wrong bench marks. A recent claim about their latest car says it will in theory hit 279 mph if they can find a tyre capable. There’s your first problem, who is going to help develop such a tyre for a manufacture who has built less than 110 cars in over tens years of production. And even if such a tyre existed they have no venue willing to allow them to make the attempt.

As you have said the Egg is a monster in a straight line, but that is a very limited performance criteria, I have helped build many a street based dragster that would humble an Egg in a straight line. Spend a day at a run what you brung meeting at Santa Pod if you don’t believe me.

Koenigseggs continued hunt for more HP I again feels is a bit of a fools errand as it just cant be deployed through a 2WD chassis without massive traction control intervention.

As for circuit times that has always been the question with the Eggs. When I spoke to the factory early last year about an attempt on the Ring record they told me they were thinking about it, so far nothing has been heard since.

The Egg is a wonderful car, over the last few years the build quality has hit the very top end and can be classed as one of the best out there. The problem is that the market just does not take it seriously.

As for Chris Harris, he famously did a review of the Agera for EVO magazine and slammed it. But his is only one opinion

You're not biased at all, mate. When have you ever found the time to slander Koenigsegg?


Alrighty then, fanboy pants on and let's sort this frivolous mess out... once again (sigh). Let's start with Chris' test. I have the mag in front of me and he starts it off by spending a few pages telling us how overpriced hypercars are, how much he dislikes the brand (I believe he's had a change of opinion since then following the Inside series, judging from his comments on Best of Drive 2013) and how low his expectations are. As we later come to find out this was part of the great reveal as he goes on to call the ride quality "beautifully absorbent and calm" and makes a note that the "steering has uncommon delicacy as has clearly been expertly tuned to the chassis", etc. He stitches it up with "So the Agera R is noisy, visually uncouth and preposterously expensive. At the same time it is beautifully constructed and in possession of a chassis that shows an understanding of how a car should behave on the road. It should also be noted that during a day of idling, waiting and endless three-point turns, it didn't throw a single wobble. That is extremely unusual for a car of this type. The Agera R is likely to be as fast as your body can handle. It is also a surprisingly polished product. In light of this I'm sorry I didn't take the car more seriously. It turned out to be a far more rigorous engineering exercise than excpected." And then he gives it five stars. Your interpretation of events is a bit "odd" thus, as I've pointed out to you a few times now. Yes, there were underhanded remarks but no more than you've come to expect from the british press, and particularly EVO, when dealing with Koenigsegg.

Here's Chris' revised opinion about the company, 37:24 in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLlMGyaB3Vw

Looking back at it I don't think Chris himself considers it the greatest piece he's ever written, but you can hardly blame him as most people's view of Koenigsegg before the Inside series was a Johnny-come-lately swedish car company that broke the top speed world record and went off the Top Gear track. Those of us who had followed them more closely knew there was more to them than that but only because we were paying very close attention.


Circuit times. Both the CCR and the CCX were the fastest car of their gens around the track in independent testing, and both of those cars were built for top speed with one third of the downforce as their current gen Ageras or the later CCXR's equipped with the double F1 wing. Testing the Agera has proved problematic because they have one test mule/review car, their books have pretty much been full and there's been an ongoing development of new systems. The 0-300-0 km/h record was done as part of their regular testing regime on their own runway and wasn't even optimized for the run as the MY2013 onwards are quicker and also the car was geared for +400 km/h. Bar a commissioned visit to the states to shoot the Need For Speed movie the review car hasn't left the factory since the development stages.


The Michelin Super Sport tires the car is wearing at the moment are rated as "+420 km/h". It does not have the weight of the Veyron so don't need "super special" tires to keep things from exploding.


The have a very sophisticated traction and stability control at the moment. Latest gen Bosch coupled with Koenigsegg's own differential and ECU. It's virtually uncrashable. The diff, ECU and ABS helps keep maximum traction to the ground in acceleration and forces the car into corners without giving it the touchy oversteer that nearly killed the Stig. Violently tugging it back and forth with reckless intent will only serve to slow the car down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SywqgH7n-5g


I have good information that the One:1 will comfortably blow everything away at this years Geneva. The car is partly a venture to satisfy the track going clientel in China who plays around with Zonda R's et al, but mostly it's a technology exercise to show what Koenigsegg are capable of. There is a reveal not made public yet that is bound to come as a bit of a shock to the industry. Watch this space.


For all your attempts Streetrod, the market does take it seriously (witness the fact that Koenigsegg has more views on Drive than Pagani, Porsche, McLaren and Ferrari). The british auto press bar Top Gear is a whole other affair. EVO and Metcalfe has done an exceptional job at working against them with overtly bias methods that boggles the mind. I'm still bewildered they would let EVO anywhere near their cars or the factory.

Aside from this very limited perspective (ie; the british market) the reality however is that they're a nische brand who sells very noisy, high strung cars. They are not Pagani with their immediate luxury appeal (who are yet to sell remarkably higher volumes than Koenigsegg) or McLaren/Porsche/Ferrari/Bugatti with their brand recognition, so production will be limited for at least another ten years until the kids who grew up with Koenigsegg posters on their walls, playing video games with Koenigsegg in it and such, can afford one. The good news is most of their customers are return customers and most of the available second hand cars are from owners clearing space for their 2:nd or 3:rd Koenigsegg. Saywell is on his 4:th. The Zonda HH owner recently made the jump to Koenigsegg with his Agera HH, citing customer service issues as the reason for the switch.

And Koenigsegg have learned from Pagani by implementing a buy back program for "bad" cars as well so they've raised their residuals considerably since we had our last chat, thus widening the market to potential buyers who do not have unlimited funds. Since Tommy Wareham told you there would be a change in policies prices have climbed to where a CCR is at approx +65% and a CCX is at +80%. Just a year ago or so you could find a CCR at 30%-40% and a CCX at 40%-50%. The cars that are currently on the market are almost exclusively dealership cars or cars from collectors making room for a new Koenigsegg. The few bad apples I've seen have quickly disappeared from the market and put back into circulation with factory upgrades and warranty.

Koenigsegg is also working with a long term business plan that includes other side ventures and their production run budget is set at approx 10 cars annually. They will soon be moving their factory to a new airfield and have gotten build permit for a test track outside their factory so will be able to display the cars capabilities better to customers and journos while going about their regular business.

Lastly, if you own a Pagani a Koenigsegg is likely to be sitting beside it in the garage as well so this contrarian nonsense you persist with across several messageboards is superfluous.


Cue personal attacks.

And until next time...

[Mastodon2]

leeson660 said:

Isn't the Agera R 2 seconds quicker to 186mph though? Rolling start I cant see how the P1 would get anywhere near it?

I'm sure your right ref the track though, wonder if they could bolt a big wing on the Agera R

Sticking a big wing on isn't going to counteract the incredible aero and suspension setup the P1 has. The Hennessey Venom is another straight line monster, but you don't see people asking which would be quicker on a track.

[Fire99]

Tom73 said:

Lots of interesting stuff

Personally I have a huge soft spot for the Agera. It appears far more organic than the likes of the P1 etc and regardless of ultimate figures / lap times, it appeals to a rawer area of my heart than its more 'technical' competitors.

[Streetrod]

Tom73 said:

Streetrod said:

The Egg seems to find itself in an odd position; personally I think they are chasing the wrong bench marks. A recent claim about their latest car says it will in theory hit 279 mph if they can find a tyre capable. There’s your first problem, who is going to help develop such a tyre for a manufacture who has built less than 110 cars in over tens years of production. And even if such a tyre existed they have no venue willing to allow them to make the attempt.

As you have said the Egg is a monster in a straight line, but that is a very limited performance criteria, I have helped build many a street based dragster that would humble an Egg in a straight line. Spend a day at a run what you brung meeting at Santa Pod if you don’t believe me.

Koenigseggs continued hunt for more HP I again feels is a bit of a fools errand as it just cant be deployed through a 2WD chassis without massive traction control intervention.

As for circuit times that has always been the question with the Eggs. When I spoke to the factory early last year about an attempt on the Ring record they told me they were thinking about it, so far nothing has been heard since.

The Egg is a wonderful car, over the last few years the build quality has hit the very top end and can be classed as one of the best out there. The problem is that the market just does not take it seriously.

As for Chris Harris, he famously did a review of the Agera for EVO magazine and slammed it. But his is only one opinion

You're not biased at all, mate. When have you ever found the time to slander Koenigsegg?


Alrighty then, fanboy pants on and let's sort this frivolous mess out... once again (sigh). Let's start with Chris' test. I have the mag in front of me and he starts it off by spending a few pages telling us how overpriced hypercars are, how much he dislikes the brand (I believe he's had a change of opinion since then following the Inside series, judging from his comments on Best of Drive 2013) and how low his expectations are. As we later come to find out this was part of the great reveal as he goes on to call the ride quality "beautifully absorbent and calm" and makes a note that the "steering has uncommon delicacy as has clearly been expertly tuned to the chassis", etc. He stitches it up with "So the Agera R is noisy, visually uncouth and preposterously expensive. At the same time it is beautifully constructed and in possession of a chassis that shows an understanding of how a car should behave on the road. It should also be noted that during a day of idling, waiting and endless three-point turns, it didn't throw a single wobble. That is extremely unusual for a car of this type. The Agera R is likely to be as fast as your body can handle. It is also a surprisingly polished product. In light of this I'm sorry I didn't take the car more seriously. It turned out to be a far more rigorous engineering exercise than excpected." And then he gives it five stars. Your interpretation of events is a bit "odd" thus, as I've pointed out to you a few times now. Yes, there were underhanded remarks but no more than you've come to expect from the british press, and particularly EVO, when dealing with Koenigsegg.

Here's Chris' revised opinion about the company, 37:24 in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLlMGyaB3Vw

Looking back at it I don't think Chris himself considers it the greatest piece he's ever written, but you can hardly blame him as most people's view of Koenigsegg before the Inside series was a Johnny-come-lately swedish car company that broke the top speed world record and went off the Top Gear track. Those of us who had followed them more closely knew there was more to them than that but only because we were paying very close attention.


Circuit times. Both the CCR and the CCX were the fastest car of their gens around the track in independent testing, and both of those cars were built for top speed with one third of the downforce as their current gen Ageras or the later CCXR's equipped with the double F1 wing. Testing the Agera has proved problematic because they have one test mule/review car, their books have pretty much been full and there's been an ongoing development of new systems. The 0-300-0 km/h record was done as part of their regular testing regime on their own runway and wasn't even optimized for the run as the MY2013 onwards are quicker and also the car was geared for +400 km/h. Bar a commissioned visit to the states to shoot the Need For Speed movie the review car hasn't left the factory since the development stages.


The Michelin Super Sport tires the car is wearing at the moment are rated as "+420 km/h". It does not have the weight of the Veyron so don't need "super special" tires to keep things from exploding.


The have a very sophisticated traction and stability control at the moment. Latest gen Bosch coupled with Koenigsegg's own differential and ECU. It's virtually uncrashable. The diff, ECU and ABS helps keep maximum traction to the ground in acceleration and forces the car into corners without giving it the touchy oversteer that nearly killed the Stig. Violently tugging it back and forth with reckless intent will only serve to slow the car down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SywqgH7n-5g


I have good information that the One:1 will comfortably blow everything away at this years Geneva. The car is partly a venture to satisfy the track going clientel in China who plays around with Zonda R's et al, but mostly it's a technology exercise to show what Koenigsegg are capable of. There is a reveal not made public yet that is bound to come as a bit of a shock to the industry. Watch this space.


For all your attempts Streetrod, the market does take it seriously (witness the fact that Koenigsegg has more views on Drive than Pagani, Porsche, McLaren and Ferrari). The british auto press bar Top Gear is a whole other affair. EVO and Metcalfe has done an exceptional job at working against them with overtly bias methods that boggles the mind. I'm still bewildered they would let EVO anywhere near their cars or the factory.

Aside from this very limited perspective (ie; the british market) the reality however is that they're a nische brand who sells very noisy, high strung cars. They are not Pagani with their immediate luxury appeal (who are yet to sell remarkably higher volumes than Koenigsegg) or McLaren/Porsche/Ferrari/Bugatti with their brand recognition, so production will be limited for at least another ten years until the kids who grew up with Koenigsegg posters on their walls, playing video games with Koenigsegg in it and such, can afford one. The good news is most of their customers are return customers and most of the available second hand cars are from owners clearing space for their 2:nd or 3:rd Koenigsegg. Saywell is on his 4:th. The Zonda HH owner recently made the jump to Koenigsegg with his Agera HH, citing customer service issues as the reason for the switch.

And Koenigsegg have learned from Pagani by implementing a buy back program for "bad" cars as well so they've raised their residuals considerably since we had our last chat, thus widening the market to potential buyers who do not have unlimited funds. Since Tommy Wareham told you there would be a change in policies prices have climbed to where a CCR is at approx +65% and a CCX is at +80%. Just a year ago or so you could find a CCR at 30%-40% and a CCX at 40%-50%. The cars that are currently on the market are almost exclusively dealership cars or cars from collectors making room for a new Koenigsegg. The few bad apples I've seen have quickly disappeared from the market and put back into circulation with factory upgrades and warranty.

Koenigsegg is also working with a long term business plan that includes other side ventures and their production run budget is set at approx 10 cars annually. They will soon be moving their factory to a new airfield and have gotten build permit for a test track outside their factory so will be able to display the cars capabilities better to customers and journos while going about their regular business.

Lastly, if you own a Pagani a Koenigsegg is likely to be sitting beside it in the garage as well so this contrarian nonsense you persist with across several messageboards is superfluous.


Cue personal attacks.

And until next time...

Tom did you read my second to last sentence, where I said and I quote "The Egg is a wonderful car" And I have said the same or similar on a number of threads in which you have participated about the Eggs. The Egg is a mighty achievement, if you choose to ignore these statements then so be it but I have and have always had the utmost respect for Koenigsegg, this is well documented. I have also told you in the past that I have two friends that had worked for Koenigsegg for many years, I have no interest in slander, I am just stating my opinion, others above seem to agree with me.

When I question what they doing it’s because I can’t see the payoff sometimes. The top speed claims for instance, at the moment they cant prove them, and unless VW give them the nod they are unlikely to ever have the chance. As for he tyres, its not just about weight, its the centrifugal forces that are the biggest issue at these speeds and are more likely to destroy the tyres.

Circuit times, I have no times for the Agera to hand but the Black Falcon CCX on the same day, with the same driver at the Ring produced a 7.33.55 min lap time. The Zonda F on the same day with the same driver did a 7.24.44 min, am I missing something here? The Agera will be a lot faster I suspect, but how much no one seems to know.

The One when it is revealed as you state will no doubt hit us between the eyes with a number of headline grabbing numbers, but until it is independently tested that is all they will be "numbers" I cant wait to see the test. If as you state testing on the Agera has been problematic how do they then develop the upgraded One without a proper benchmark?? The Pagani Huryra lets not forget did over a million kilometres of testing, plus the independent testing done by Bosch and AMG

As for the market I have spoken to Tommy on a number of occasions and have even visited his showroom. He currently has four Eggs for sale, three of them he has had for at least two years. The white CCX also spent 6 months for sale at Romans before Tommy got it, so how does this demonstrate a healthy market. The car is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it, it does no matter how much he pushes the prices up they are still firmly stuck to the forecourt.

As for having both an Egg and a Pagani in the garage, come on mate you know that is not true, if it was Koenigsegg would have had to have built nearly twice as many cars, yes a hand full of owners have both but not many.

I will state again just so that we are clear, what Koenigsegg have done is remarkable but until I have seen the independent evidence I will still have to question how good they really are compared to the latest crop of supercars. If they come up trumps I will be the first to congratulate them on a job well done

Edited by Streetrod on Sunday 23 February 22:45

[anonymous-user]

Tom73 said:

You're not biased at all, mate. When have you ever found the time to slander Koenigsegg?


Alrighty then, fanboy pants on and let's sort this frivolous mess out... once again (sigh). Let's start with Chris' test. I have the mag in front of me and he starts it off by spending a few pages telling us how overpriced hypercars are, how much he dislikes the brand (I believe he's had a change of opinion since then following the Inside series, judging from his comments on Best of Drive 2013) and how low his expectations are. As we later come to find out this was part of the great reveal as he goes on to call the ride quality "beautifully absorbent and calm" and makes a note that the "steering has uncommon delicacy as has clearly been expertly tuned to the chassis", etc. He stitches it up with "So the Agera R is noisy, visually uncouth and preposterously expensive. At the same time it is beautifully constructed and in possession of a chassis that shows an understanding of how a car should behave on the road. It should also be noted that during a day of idling, waiting and endless three-point turns, it didn't throw a single wobble. That is extremely unusual for a car of this type. The Agera R is likely to be as fast as your body can handle. It is also a surprisingly polished product. In light of this I'm sorry I didn't take the car more seriously. It turned out to be a far more rigorous engineering exercise than excpected." And then he gives it five stars. Your interpretation of events is a bit "odd" thus, as I've pointed out to you a few times now. Yes, there were underhanded remarks but no more than you've come to expect from the british press, and particularly EVO, when dealing with Koenigsegg.

Here's Chris' revised opinion about the company, 37:24 in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLlMGyaB3Vw

Looking back at it I don't think Chris himself considers it the greatest piece he's ever written, but you can hardly blame him as most people's view of Koenigsegg before the Inside series was a Johnny-come-lately swedish car company that broke the top speed world record and went off the Top Gear track. Those of us who had followed them more closely knew there was more to them than that but only because we were paying very close attention.


Circuit times. Both the CCR and the CCX were the fastest car of their gens around the track in independent testing, and both of those cars were built for top speed with one third of the downforce as their current gen Ageras or the later CCXR's equipped with the double F1 wing. Testing the Agera has proved problematic because they have one test mule/review car, their books have pretty much been full and there's been an ongoing development of new systems. The 0-300-0 km/h record was done as part of their regular testing regime on their own runway and wasn't even optimized for the run as the MY2013 onwards are quicker and also the car was geared for +400 km/h. Bar a commissioned visit to the states to shoot the Need For Speed movie the review car hasn't left the factory since the development stages.


The Michelin Super Sport tires the car is wearing at the moment are rated as "+420 km/h". It does not have the weight of the Veyron so don't need "super special" tires to keep things from exploding.


The have a very sophisticated traction and stability control at the moment. Latest gen Bosch coupled with Koenigsegg's own differential and ECU. It's virtually uncrashable. The diff, ECU and ABS helps keep maximum traction to the ground in acceleration and forces the car into corners without giving it the touchy oversteer that nearly killed the Stig. Violently tugging it back and forth with reckless intent will only serve to slow the car down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SywqgH7n-5g


I have good information that the One:1 will comfortably blow everything away at this years Geneva. The car is partly a venture to satisfy the track going clientel in China who plays around with Zonda R's et al, but mostly it's a technology exercise to show what Koenigsegg are capable of. There is a reveal not made public yet that is bound to come as a bit of a shock to the industry. Watch this space.


For all your attempts Streetrod, the market does take it seriously (witness the fact that Koenigsegg has more views on Drive than Pagani, Porsche, McLaren and Ferrari). The british auto press bar Top Gear is a whole other affair. EVO and Metcalfe has done an exceptional job at working against them with overtly bias methods that boggles the mind. I'm still bewildered they would let EVO anywhere near their cars or the factory.

Aside from this very limited perspective (ie; the british market) the reality however is that they're a nische brand who sells very noisy, high strung cars. They are not Pagani with their immediate luxury appeal (who are yet to sell remarkably higher volumes than Koenigsegg) or McLaren/Porsche/Ferrari/Bugatti with their brand recognition, so production will be limited for at least another ten years until the kids who grew up with Koenigsegg posters on their walls, playing video games with Koenigsegg in it and such, can afford one. The good news is most of their customers are return customers and most of the available second hand cars are from owners clearing space for their 2:nd or 3:rd Koenigsegg. Saywell is on his 4:th. The Zonda HH owner recently made the jump to Koenigsegg with his Agera HH, citing customer service issues as the reason for the switch.

And Koenigsegg have learned from Pagani by implementing a buy back program for "bad" cars as well so they've raised their residuals considerably since we had our last chat, thus widening the market to potential buyers who do not have unlimited funds. Since Tommy Wareham told you there would be a change in policies prices have climbed to where a CCR is at approx +65% and a CCX is at +80%. Just a year ago or so you could find a CCR at 30%-40% and a CCX at 40%-50%. The cars that are currently on the market are almost exclusively dealership cars or cars from collectors making room for a new Koenigsegg. The few bad apples I've seen have quickly disappeared from the market and put back into circulation with factory upgrades and warranty.

Koenigsegg is also working with a long term business plan that includes other side ventures and their production run budget is set at approx 10 cars annually. They will soon be moving their factory to a new airfield and have gotten build permit for a test track outside their factory so will be able to display the cars capabilities better to customers and journos while going about their regular business.

Lastly, if you own a Pagani a Koenigsegg is likely to be sitting beside it in the garage as well so this contrarian nonsense you persist with across several messageboards is superfluous.


Cue personal attacks.

And until next time...

Seriously, try just once Tom to post in a thread and not say something about the 'egg (which i agree is a great car btw). Maybe go a bit lower down in the forum lists, try the lounge, or perhaps the music thread, the photography one, in fact, any other thread. When a poster just posts about one subject and one subject only they are apt to attract a certain amount of attention that may not be totally valid.

[Vyse]

Wouldn't the CCXR be faster than an Agera R around a track due to its shorter gearing. Not sure how superior the aero on an Agera R is though.

[Tom73]

Streetrod said:

Tom did you read my second to last sentence, where I said and I quote "The Egg is a wonderful car" And I have said the same or similar on a number of threads in which you have participated about the Eggs. The Egg is a mighty achievement, if you choose to ignore these statements then so be it but I have and have always had the utmost respect for Koenigsegg, this is well documented. I have also told you in the past that I have two friends that had worked for Koenigsegg for many years, I have no interest in slander, I am just stating my opinion, others above seem to agree with me.

When I question what they doing it’s because I can’t see the payoff sometimes. The top speed claims for instance, at the moment they cant prove them, and unless VW give them the nod they are unlikely to ever have the chance. As for he tyres, its not just about weight, its the centrifugal forces that are the biggest issue at these speeds and are more likely to destroy the tyres.

Circuit times, I have no times for the Agera to hand but the Black Falcon CCX on the same day, with the same driver at the Ring produced a 7.33.55 min lap time. The Zonda F on the same day with the same driver did a 7.24.44 min, am I missing something here? The Agera will be a lot faster I suspect, but how much no one seems to know.

The One when it is revealed as you state will no doubt hit us between the eyes with a number of headline grabbing numbers, but until it is independently tested that is all they will be "numbers" I cant wait to see the test. If as you state testing on the Agera has been problematic how do they then develop the upgraded One without a proper benchmark?? The Pagani Huryra lets not forget did over a million kilometres of testing, plus the independent testing done by Bosch and AMG

As for the market I have spoken to Tommy on a number of occasions and have even visited his showroom. He currently has four Eggs for sale, three of them he has had for at least two years. The white CCX also spent 6 months for sale at Romans before Tommy got it, so how does this demonstrate a healthy market. The car is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it, it does no matter how much he pushes the prices up they are still firmly stuck to the forecourt.

As for having both an Egg and a Pagani in the garage, come on mate you know that is not true, if it was Koenigsegg would have had to have built nearly twice as many cars, yes a hand full of owners have both but not many.

I will state again just so that we are clear, what Koenigsegg have done is remarkable but until I have seen the independent evidence I will still have to question how good they really are compared to the latest crop of supercars. If they come up trumps I will be the first to congratulate them on a job well done

Edited by Streetrod on Sunday 23 February 22:45

I consider it borderline slandering when you've been told repeatedly, not just by me but by other posters on other forums as well, and you persist on popping up in these threads and spreading blatant misinformation. Like for instance your take on the Harris review that two people in this thread alone corrected you on before I had a chance to. Between us three and the rest there's at least a handful of guys that have made this remark and yet you insist on rehashing it? Why?? If you're playing the role of a habitual wind up merchant you're doing a great job across several boards with several people. If not, you're being obtuse.


What top speed claim? The Ageras are electronically limited to 375 km/h and are only unlocked if the car meets certain criterias set by the factory. They don't even have the theoretical top speed on their site any more (they stopped doing that with the CCXR which was rated as "+410 km/h" which is well within the limits of the car) and few customers will opt to gear their cars for +400 km/h (I only know of a few that have). It's a good theoretical number to throw around for PR as many makers will, but it is not "a claim" of theirs and as I've told you numerous times it hasn't been for some time. We're in 2014 now just so you know. Must've been 6 or 7 years since CvK resignated to never being able to use VAG's track and I don't belive he's perpetuated this quest for top speed since. The straight line performance focus has been 0-300-0 km/h ever since the CCX.


Circuit time. You know full well it was Pagani's factory driver Marc Basseng who drove those cars and that they ran the Zonda on Cups and the Koenigsegg on Pilot Sports on a softer street setting in the wet and ran it off course before the hot lap. I'm what, the third or fourth person to tell you this by now? The fifth? I think someone even linked you to a discussion on a Ferrari forum with eyewitness accounts of the events? If a friend of Pagani sets up a "test" with only Pagani people on site and the other cars running on less than optimal settings and worse tires, it is not what you call "independent"? All independent testing with all things at least being somewhat equal mechanically with tires etc, ie on Top Gear and in Sport Auto, Koenigsegg have consistently been the faster car.

I really shouldn't have to tell you this but then again you're were on teamspeed arguing with blokes over the fact that Pagani used cut race slicks to set their lap time in Top Gear with the Huayra.

http://jalopnik.com/did-the-pagani-huayra-cheat-to...

And you were also at it when Pagani blatantly copied one of Koenigsegg's data plates in what was possibly the most amateurish moment ever produced by a hypercar maker (the thought that someone at Pagani googled a Koenigsegg and copied everything letter by letter onto their fancy data plate is just ridiculous and no amount of excuses will change that fact).

http://teamspeed.com/forums/supercars/80896-pagani...

Not that I particularly care about lap times or anything as the drama at 0 km/h is what tickles my fancy with Pagani, but if you want to play the game: they DID use cut race slicks and they DID copy Koenigsegg's data plate and they DID set up a "review" together with EVO that was unfair and uncouth. And you accepted it. Even defended it. But it's Koenigsegg that has to take the brunt of your investigate nous? Well then.


Why would it be problematic testing on a new independent prototype? And didn't I write that part of the problem was that they'd had the Agera mule tied up in developing new systems? Things like the One:1 is what they have been doing instead of chasing lap times and seating Clarkson.

I personally like their priorities. It used to be that they were playing catch up with Pagani who always had the first punt at the market with their models while the CCX remained largely unchanged for the longest time, but since the introduction of both their new models Koenigsegg have: developed the Aircore carbon wheels, added the new Triplex damper system, amped up the car with serious stability control, released both the R and the S, created a new ECU, re-engineered the engine, created a new adaptive wing, added a new (hidden) stereo system, polished the interior, developed their own brakes, developed the One:1 with active aero and chassis, and more. In the meantime Pagani has fitted a new front splitter and a stereo and added some extra carbon bits to the Zonda R. And yes, the photographer seems awfully busy... Now I'm being deliberately unfair here as I fully understand that Pagani has been building cars pretty much non-stop since the introduction of the Huayra, but my point is it's easy to scrutinize these small companies based on what they haven't done instead of what they are doing. Koenigsegg were lagging behind Pagani's interior and they ran the risk of being left behind by the performance based competition from McLaren et al, so they rolled up their sleeves and kept at it. The only way companies like Pagani, Koenigsegg and Tesla are able to compete with entities like Ferrari, VAG, BMW et al is if they do some serious time management and their employees puts in 16 hour shifts instead of 8 hour shifts, preferably going to bed dreaming about their projects.

And like I explained to you before it would take Pagani 10 years of 4 hours of continuous driving each day at an average 70 km/h to reach 1000000 km. The 1000000 km Pagani is not a Huayra but a 14 year old Zonda with Huayra bits in it. They did not accumulate 1000000 km for the Huayra itself.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/go/news/videos/go-news...

It's impressive nonetheless so there's no need to embellish it.


You know as well as I do that's it's not uncommon for hypercars to be sitting at dealerships for different reasons. There are several Zondas that have been on the market for years and at any one point you could find 30 or so offered for sale around the world which is not uncommon for these types of cars.

Also mind you SuperVettura is Koenigsegg's official UK dealer now and will have a few factory certified cars at hand at any given moment. Both the royal blue CCX and clear carbon/red candy CCR have been back to the factory as far as I know.

And would you buy the carbon/white CCX? No? Then we may have solved our puzzle, mate. Wait for the right customer, kill it with fire or add a fresh coat of paint and rip out the black alcantara. It's a 2009 with the latest pre-Agera bling so should be more than salvageable.

Lastly, from the gossip I heard SuperVettura sold two new Ageras and Saywell's old lime green CCR in january so business can't be overbearingly slow? Or maybe it will pick up and they'll sell four hypercars next month? Did you at least leave them a few pounds so they could get themselves something to eat? Were they gnawing on the boney remains of the fallen soldiers? Did you hold Tommy's hand and whisper something encouraging into his ear as he passed away from starvation? Let's keep things in perspective here. Yes Pagani got a head start through clever care of the second hand market, but Koenigsegg's greater care for the second hand market as of late have made them a much more viable option as well so lets give it some time and see how things mature. So far they've raised their residuals and from what I'm told the factory is busier than ever.


If they do trump the competition (what a pointless perspective. I'd rather have them "tie the competition", ie survive and thrive) I'm certain you will still be busy covering all your other "points of concern". Or maybe even completely ignoring the evidence. Your resilience on this matter never ceases to amaze me and every time I see someone making a break through with you and it appears as if you've taken in some of the information available to you, it wont be long before you've forgotten everything you've heard and decided to take another run in the hamster wheel.

I do hope you prove me wrong though. I don't think neither Pagani or Koenigsegg are served by having their enthusiasts bicker amongst themselves when there's bigger fish to fry and they're both essentially in the same boat as small, passionate niche brands punching above their weight against the proverbial Goliaths.

[w00tman]

Well, this escalated quickly

[stevesingo]

Tom73 said:

And you were also at it when Pagani blatantly copied one of Koenigsegg's data plates in what was possibly the most amateurish moment ever produced by a hypercar maker (the thought that someone at Pagani googled a Koenigsegg and copied everything letter by letter onto their fancy data plate is just ridiculous and no amount of excuses will change that fact).

http://teamspeed.com/forums/supercars/80896-pagani...

Not that I particularly care about lap times or anything as the drama at 0 km/h is what tickles my fancy with Pagani, but if you want to play the game: they DID use cut race slicks and they DID copy Koenigsegg's data plate

You mean to say Pagani copied the text on a data plate which is probably a legal requirement? The text you say? Not the font! Not the material! The text?

Unbelievable!

[GALLARDOGUY]

w00tman said:

Well, this escalated quickly

Always does with these two.