EU parliament votes for tougher car emissions limits
Discussion
Our everyday car options just got less interesting 
article said:
New cars from 2020 onwards will have to emit no more than 95g of CO2 per kilometre, under deal hailed ‘as good deal’
The new rules set a limit of 95 grams of carbon dioxide per kilometre (g/km) as an average across all new cars sold in the EU, compared with an existing limit of 130 g/km.
The European Commission, the EU executive, proposed the target should apply from 2020, but full implementation has been delayed for a year following months of negotiation.
Germany, on behalf of its luxury car makers, such as Daimler and BMW, campaigned hard for more time to implement the legislation, which its car industry says will still be extremely challenging.
In a reference to German lobbying, EU Climate Commissioner Connie Hedegaard commented in German: “Ende gut, alles gut.” (All’s well that ends well.)
LinkThe new rules set a limit of 95 grams of carbon dioxide per kilometre (g/km) as an average across all new cars sold in the EU, compared with an existing limit of 130 g/km.
The European Commission, the EU executive, proposed the target should apply from 2020, but full implementation has been delayed for a year following months of negotiation.
Germany, on behalf of its luxury car makers, such as Daimler and BMW, campaigned hard for more time to implement the legislation, which its car industry says will still be extremely challenging.
In a reference to German lobbying, EU Climate Commissioner Connie Hedegaard commented in German: “Ende gut, alles gut.” (All’s well that ends well.)
I'd love to know who these Euro clowns are. Modern diesels and petrols are complex enough as it is, before Euro 6 and its new raft of changes (lambda sensor per cylinder etc) that will make cars even less reliable and more expensive to fix, thus shortening their lifespan further. So glad I have a stash of golden oldies!
iSore said:
I'd love to know who these Euro clowns are. Modern diesels and petrols are complex enough as it is, before Euro 6 and its new raft of changes (lambda sensor per cylinder etc) that will make cars even less reliable and more expensive to fix, thus shortening their lifespan further. So glad I have a stash of golden oldies!
Totally agree - but watch them come after your oldies - they keep having a go. Already in some Euro countries you cannot use old cars in an unrestricted manner.Feck me, do these muppets really not have better things to be doing with their time?
For example:
Many traditional European restaurants, particularly in the Mediterranean, use small glass jugs filled with green or gold coloured extra virgin olive oil, and some British restaurants place dishes of the oil on their tables.
However, these will be banned from 1 January 2014 after an obscure Brussels committee decreed they must be in pre-packaged, factory bottles with a tamper-proof dispensing nozzle and labelling in line with tight EU standards.
For example:
Many traditional European restaurants, particularly in the Mediterranean, use small glass jugs filled with green or gold coloured extra virgin olive oil, and some British restaurants place dishes of the oil on their tables.
However, these will be banned from 1 January 2014 after an obscure Brussels committee decreed they must be in pre-packaged, factory bottles with a tamper-proof dispensing nozzle and labelling in line with tight EU standards.
V8forweekends said:
Totally agree - but watch them come after your oldies - they keep having a go. Already in some Euro countries you cannot use old cars in an unrestricted manner.
Fortunately so far, the money to be made from taxing old cars which are 'polluting' has been minimal. However as with many things in the EU it will move from money and power to ideology... I think you will be right in the end. Get on the smoker barge thread and buy those v8 and v12 7s and mercs for peanuts.
The article is completely incorrect to say new cars will need to produce less than 95g/km.
Similarly to current rules, the aim is for the average of all cars sold in all markets to be 95g/km by 2020. Given that we have plenty of hatchbacks below that already, and even some SUVs heading the right direction (new Qashqai capable of 99g/km), this isn't an unanswerable challenge.
Bear in mind that using the average of the entire European market, which we all know is inundated with a massive proportion of diesel econoboxes, works nicely in our favour. There are more than enough volume sellers to offset our cars of choice, and because performance cars are incredibly low volume compared to things like diesel Polos, they have a small effect on fleet averages.
It's also worth mentioning that each OEM is set an individual target based on their market, and there is negotiation room, especially for smaller-volume manufacturers. JLR are not, for example, going to have to achieve a 95g/km average - not even close. The actual target is also set on a sliding scale against average vehicle mass, with producers of heavier vehicles being permitted a greater average CO2.
OEMs also know about these targets in pretty good time. It's one of the less crippling and idiotic things the EU does, for sure.
Similarly to current rules, the aim is for the average of all cars sold in all markets to be 95g/km by 2020. Given that we have plenty of hatchbacks below that already, and even some SUVs heading the right direction (new Qashqai capable of 99g/km), this isn't an unanswerable challenge.
Bear in mind that using the average of the entire European market, which we all know is inundated with a massive proportion of diesel econoboxes, works nicely in our favour. There are more than enough volume sellers to offset our cars of choice, and because performance cars are incredibly low volume compared to things like diesel Polos, they have a small effect on fleet averages.
It's also worth mentioning that each OEM is set an individual target based on their market, and there is negotiation room, especially for smaller-volume manufacturers. JLR are not, for example, going to have to achieve a 95g/km average - not even close. The actual target is also set on a sliding scale against average vehicle mass, with producers of heavier vehicles being permitted a greater average CO2.
OEMs also know about these targets in pretty good time. It's one of the less crippling and idiotic things the EU does, for sure.
Matt UK said:
Feck me, do these muppets really not have better things to be doing with their time?
For example:
Many traditional European restaurants, particularly in the Mediterranean, use small glass jugs filled with green or gold coloured extra virgin olive oil, and some British restaurants place dishes of the oil on their tables.
However, these will be banned from 1 January 2014 after an obscure Brussels committee decreed they must be in pre-packaged, factory bottles with a tamper-proof dispensing nozzle and labelling in line with tight EU standards.
I can confirm that the Spanish are paying absolutely no attention to this rule. Imagine it's the same with most other countries!For example:
Many traditional European restaurants, particularly in the Mediterranean, use small glass jugs filled with green or gold coloured extra virgin olive oil, and some British restaurants place dishes of the oil on their tables.
However, these will be banned from 1 January 2014 after an obscure Brussels committee decreed they must be in pre-packaged, factory bottles with a tamper-proof dispensing nozzle and labelling in line with tight EU standards.
Matt UK said:
Feck me, do these muppets really not have better things to be doing with their time?
For example:
Many traditional European restaurants, particularly in the Mediterranean, use small glass jugs filled with green or gold coloured extra virgin olive oil, and some British restaurants place dishes of the oil on their tables.
However, these will be banned from 1 January 2014 after an obscure Brussels committee decreed they must be in pre-packaged, factory bottles with a tamper-proof dispensing nozzle and labelling in line with tight EU standards.
Who the fFor example:
Many traditional European restaurants, particularly in the Mediterranean, use small glass jugs filled with green or gold coloured extra virgin olive oil, and some British restaurants place dishes of the oil on their tables.
However, these will be banned from 1 January 2014 after an obscure Brussels committee decreed they must be in pre-packaged, factory bottles with a tamper-proof dispensing nozzle and labelling in line with tight EU standards.
k is going to police that gem???? I can really see all those Froggie bistro's down on the Med paying a blind bit of attention to any EU "decrees"McSam said:
OEMs also know about these targets in pretty good time. It's one of the less crippling and idiotic things the EU does, for sure.
I'd say the switch we have already seen to noisy, unreliable diesels has been utterly crippling for the driving enthusiast so far, now we can expect far more. These regulations have already seen the wonderful straight 6 petrol be replaced by a 4 cylinder diesel in semi premium cars. I'm sure it's not the end for manufacturers profits (the larger the company, the better they can use regulations to starve out competition after all) - it's that this is a further step to wipe out everyday cars that drive well (ie are petrol, more than 4 cylinders, naturally aspirated, and available in both auto AND manual). Very sad and worrying IMO, it will get worse as these irrelevant 'emissions' targets tighten - unless you are exceptionally rich indeed.
Once the fleet buyers pick up on the likes of the golf GTE (35g) it won't be an issue.
I think the EU is going the right way to drive interesting hybrid/zero emission research and development.
That being said, while there is the option of older interesting (and possibly heavily depreciating) cars, then that's where my money goes.
In 5 years I can see a 4 year old golf GTE being a sensible choice for me if the likes of Jaguar don't produce something hybrid soon...
I think the EU is going the right way to drive interesting hybrid/zero emission research and development.
That being said, while there is the option of older interesting (and possibly heavily depreciating) cars, then that's where my money goes.
In 5 years I can see a 4 year old golf GTE being a sensible choice for me if the likes of Jaguar don't produce something hybrid soon...
Many regs are there to protect us, and rightly so.
But many are also utter toss. Makes you wonder what kind of a world these people live in.
I've been to Asia a number of times (note - not sex tourist), I'm sure some of these EU rule makers would have a heart attack, but at least the places had some bloody character! And once I'd had my first bout of explosive diarrhea I was honestly fine after that!
Eta - diarrhoea in case any pedants didn't understand my auto-corrected spelling
But many are also utter toss. Makes you wonder what kind of a world these people live in.
I've been to Asia a number of times (note - not sex tourist), I'm sure some of these EU rule makers would have a heart attack, but at least the places had some bloody character! And once I'd had my first bout of explosive diarrhea I was honestly fine after that!
Eta - diarrhoea in case any pedants didn't understand my auto-corrected spelling
Blib said:
The premiss is wrong. CO2 is a harmless gas. Historians will look back on this madness with the same incredulity as we do at medieval witch trials.
But did you know by being more energy-efficient you can save on your fuel bills (common line trotted out just before energy price rises)V8Ford said:
Blib said:
The premiss is wrong. CO2 is a harmless gas. Historians will look back on this madness with the same incredulity as we do at medieval witch trials.
But did you know by being more energy-efficient you can save on your fuel bills (common line trotted out just before energy price rises)What's the break-even point where CO2/(av car lifespan in-use emission) matches the C02 emitted making the car? With hybrids and shippng the darn things around the world, that point of irreducable worry/minimal gain must be approaching pretty quickly.
About 10 years ago I did an order of magnitude calc to amuse myself that suggested making a car (1.4Tonne hatchback, 30mpg, 10yr life average assumed) was about 15-20% of the likely *energy* consumption over the thing's lifespan (iirc I picked 150Kmiles). Certainly the CO2 numbers change dramatically depending on what energy source you assume for manufacture; I may need to do some research...
(keeping my old n/a 4L V8 regardless!)
About 10 years ago I did an order of magnitude calc to amuse myself that suggested making a car (1.4Tonne hatchback, 30mpg, 10yr life average assumed) was about 15-20% of the likely *energy* consumption over the thing's lifespan (iirc I picked 150Kmiles). Certainly the CO2 numbers change dramatically depending on what energy source you assume for manufacture; I may need to do some research...
(keeping my old n/a 4L V8 regardless!)
I think the long game of this is to encourage manufactures to invest in and develop the next generation technologies such as hydrogen etc.
They will keep lowering the regulatory limit until internal combustion is pushed out of the market by the new, cleaner (after messy, dirty production!) and innovative (see job and revenue creating) tech.
Thats where the breaking point for this current consistent emissions reduction is heading.
They will keep lowering the regulatory limit until internal combustion is pushed out of the market by the new, cleaner (after messy, dirty production!) and innovative (see job and revenue creating) tech.
Thats where the breaking point for this current consistent emissions reduction is heading.
Bisonhead said:
I think the long game of this is to encourage manufactures to invest in and develop the next generation technologies such as hydrogen etc.
They will keep lowering the regulatory limit until internal combustion is pushed out of the market by the new, cleaner (after messy, dirty production!) and innovative (see job and revenue creating) tech.
Thats where the breaking point for this current consistent emissions reduction is heading.
I do wonder what benefit the individual EU members think they have to gain by forcing people down this route though, they lose all the tax/duty on fuel so have less money coming in from having had to force people into some form of EV. I worry what they'll start taxing us on as a replacement...They will keep lowering the regulatory limit until internal combustion is pushed out of the market by the new, cleaner (after messy, dirty production!) and innovative (see job and revenue creating) tech.
Thats where the breaking point for this current consistent emissions reduction is heading.
We do need to move away from fossil fuels, just not sure on the sincerity of policies like this and how effective they'll be at actually making us less dependant rather than just shifting the mess elsewhere.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff