Turbocharging - a depressing state of affairs!
Discussion
When I look at the Performance Car choices on sale right now I can't help but be a little depressed.
I'm not talking about the rarified end of the market - you know - £50k plus. For those well heeled enough to be able to afford one of those cars, there are plenty of good choices, and good engines. I'm talking about the £20-£30k market - for those of us who live in the real world.
With the exception of the GT86 - pretty much all performance metal in this bracket has, or is going, the turbocharged route.
1. M135i - Engine sounds fake due to artificial engine noise being piped through the car's speakers. Still some turbo lag whn you ask for instant response. Throttle response not as good as an NA engine
2. Renaultsport Megane 265 - Engine sounds a bit industrial. Runs out of puff at 6500rpm. No spine tingling rush to the redline
3. Golf GTI/Leon Cupra/Audi TT - all have a smooth turbo in-line 4, which is very efficient at delivering its performance, but lacks any sort of aggression/excitement
4. Focus/Fiesta ST - sounds pretty good in the cabin due to a sound imposer (piped engine noise into the cabin). Throttle response not as good as an NA engine - such as that in the old Clio 200
5. GT86 - at last an NA engine, but alas, one that sounds rough/thrashy and strained at high revs. Not a patch on a Honda VTEC at high revs. Shame as the chassis is great. They need to upgrade the cabin and engine to make it feel good value at £25k
6. Forthcoming Civic Type R - Turbo - doesn't bode well
7. Mazda RX8 - dead
8. Nissan 370Z - an NA engine, but again, a bad one. Rough and strained at high revs. Not a soulful engine, nor an aggressive, zingy rev happy one.
There doesn't seem to be any light at the end of the tunnel. The march of the turbo engine for mpg test/emissions reasons appears to be relentless.......
Depressing!!
- And so far, no news of a 370Z replacement..... Mazda appear to be sticking with a Rotary for the forthcoming RX9 which seems madness to me in this day and age, and BMW appear unable to make a decent sports car. The future isn't particularly rosy....
I'm not talking about the rarified end of the market - you know - £50k plus. For those well heeled enough to be able to afford one of those cars, there are plenty of good choices, and good engines. I'm talking about the £20-£30k market - for those of us who live in the real world.
With the exception of the GT86 - pretty much all performance metal in this bracket has, or is going, the turbocharged route.
1. M135i - Engine sounds fake due to artificial engine noise being piped through the car's speakers. Still some turbo lag whn you ask for instant response. Throttle response not as good as an NA engine
2. Renaultsport Megane 265 - Engine sounds a bit industrial. Runs out of puff at 6500rpm. No spine tingling rush to the redline
3. Golf GTI/Leon Cupra/Audi TT - all have a smooth turbo in-line 4, which is very efficient at delivering its performance, but lacks any sort of aggression/excitement
4. Focus/Fiesta ST - sounds pretty good in the cabin due to a sound imposer (piped engine noise into the cabin). Throttle response not as good as an NA engine - such as that in the old Clio 200
5. GT86 - at last an NA engine, but alas, one that sounds rough/thrashy and strained at high revs. Not a patch on a Honda VTEC at high revs. Shame as the chassis is great. They need to upgrade the cabin and engine to make it feel good value at £25k
6. Forthcoming Civic Type R - Turbo - doesn't bode well
7. Mazda RX8 - dead
8. Nissan 370Z - an NA engine, but again, a bad one. Rough and strained at high revs. Not a soulful engine, nor an aggressive, zingy rev happy one.
There doesn't seem to be any light at the end of the tunnel. The march of the turbo engine for mpg test/emissions reasons appears to be relentless.......
Depressing!!
- And so far, no news of a 370Z replacement..... Mazda appear to be sticking with a Rotary for the forthcoming RX9 which seems madness to me in this day and age, and BMW appear unable to make a decent sports car. The future isn't particularly rosy....
Get used to it I'm afraid. Manufacturers need to reduce their emissions in line with EU legislation.
Funny how many people who have driven the GT86 say that it could do with a turbo
Also, regarding the interior quality, I think it (partly) needs to be that way to achieve a low kerb weight.
Like they say, you can't have it all
Funny how many people who have driven the GT86 say that it could do with a turbo
Also, regarding the interior quality, I think it (partly) needs to be that way to achieve a low kerb weight.
Like they say, you can't have it all
State of transition. There is plenty of tech on the horizon for cheap passenger cars which are turbocharged to make them behave more like a traditional N/A.
P1 is a fine example at the stupid end of the spectrum. It won't be long before similar technology (a lot more compact, cheaper, different power requirements) filters down to the every man machines.
P1 is a fine example at the stupid end of the spectrum. It won't be long before similar technology (a lot more compact, cheaper, different power requirements) filters down to the every man machines.
You mention throttle response a number of times, but is it really that important in a road car?
Manufacturers tend to soften the throttle response anyway these days in the name of refinement, whether the car has a turbo or not.
I've driven a number of turbo hot hatches, and whilst they might not summon up the full 250bhp in .25 of a second, they're quick enough to not leave you wanting more.
Manufacturers tend to soften the throttle response anyway these days in the name of refinement, whether the car has a turbo or not.
I've driven a number of turbo hot hatches, and whilst they might not summon up the full 250bhp in .25 of a second, they're quick enough to not leave you wanting more.
I think turbo petrol engines are the way forward for road cars. On the road it is far more useful to have low and mid range grunt than a screaming top end, and perfectly linear instantaneous throttle response is not really relevant. It also gives us the power for the brief moments we need it but with the lower friction of a smaller displacement when we don't (most of the time), thus improving the power/mpg ratio.
In a race car I'm sure a NA screamer revving to 9500rpm is splendid but on the road that means you can only access full power in second gear for about 0.5s before you are way over the speed limit. A turbo engine allows you to utilise a greater proportion of the engines power at road speeds in whatever gear you fancy.
As for sound, four cylinder engines have never sounded very exciting and I'm not convinced that turbos are having much negative effect on engine sounds in general.
In a race car I'm sure a NA screamer revving to 9500rpm is splendid but on the road that means you can only access full power in second gear for about 0.5s before you are way over the speed limit. A turbo engine allows you to utilise a greater proportion of the engines power at road speeds in whatever gear you fancy.
As for sound, four cylinder engines have never sounded very exciting and I'm not convinced that turbos are having much negative effect on engine sounds in general.
I think throttle response is massively important for a sportscar, I recall reading that Gordon Murray felt it was of prime importance when he was working on the F1. The immediacy that comes with good throttle response makes a car feel sharper on the road.
Turbos are the future though, they offer economy benefits that just can't be argued with.
Turbos are the future though, they offer economy benefits that just can't be argued with.
daveknott5 said:
2. Renaultsport Megane 265 - Engine sounds a bit industrial. Runs out of puff at 6500rpm. No spine tingling rush to the redline
4. Focus/Fiesta ST - sounds pretty good in the cabin due to a sound imposer (piped engine noise into the cabin). Throttle response not as good as an NA engine - such as that in the old Clio 200
Both Renaults have a very similar thing to the Focus, a pipe that basically sticks noise against the bulkhead.4. Focus/Fiesta ST - sounds pretty good in the cabin due to a sound imposer (piped engine noise into the cabin). Throttle response not as good as an NA engine - such as that in the old Clio 200
Monty Python said:
When you think about it, you're not really looking at throttle response anyway - they're almost all just electronic potentiometers.
Press the throttle now and what you get is what the ECU decides, not your right foot.
For semantic clarity, I think we can all take throttle response to be the immediacy of the engine when you wiggle your right foot, irrespective of the cable/electrics/voodoo in between.Press the throttle now and what you get is what the ECU decides, not your right foot.
TurboHatchback said:
I think turbo petrol engines are the way forward for road cars. On the road it is far more useful to have low and mid range grunt than a screaming top end, and perfectly linear instantaneous throttle response is not really relevant. It also gives us the power for the brief moments we need it but with the lower friction of a smaller displacement when we don't (most of the time), thus improving the power/mpg ratio.
In a race car I'm sure a NA screamer revving to 9500rpm is splendid but on the road that means you can only access full power in second gear for about 0.5s before you are way over the speed limit. A turbo engine allows you to utilise a greater proportion of the engines power at road speeds in whatever gear you fancy.
As for sound, four cylinder engines have never sounded very exciting and I'm not convinced that turbos are having much negative effect on engine sounds in general.
I can't believe I'm actually reading this dross on PH, what a dire state of affairs. It's a terrible situation to be Iin when turbocharging is taking over and the naturally aspirated engines on offer like those in the GT86 and 370Z are carp by NA standards.In a race car I'm sure a NA screamer revving to 9500rpm is splendid but on the road that means you can only access full power in second gear for about 0.5s before you are way over the speed limit. A turbo engine allows you to utilise a greater proportion of the engines power at road speeds in whatever gear you fancy.
As for sound, four cylinder engines have never sounded very exciting and I'm not convinced that turbos are having much negative effect on engine sounds in general.
Time to give up on cars in sector, and get a bike for fun.
daveknott5 said:
When I look at the Performance Car choices on sale right now I can't help but be a little depressed.
I'm not talking about the rarified end of the market - you know - £50k plus. For those well heeled enough to be able to afford one of those cars, there are plenty of good choices, and good engines. I'm talking about the £20-£30k market - for those of us who live in the real world.
With the exception of the GT86 - pretty much all performance metal in this bracket has, or is going, the turbocharged route.
1. M135i - Engine sounds fake due to artificial engine noise being piped through the car's speakers. Still some turbo lag whn you ask for instant response. Throttle response not as good as an NA engine
2. Renaultsport Megane 265 - Engine sounds a bit industrial. Runs out of puff at 6500rpm. No spine tingling rush to the redline
3. Golf GTI/Leon Cupra/Audi TT - all have a smooth turbo in-line 4, which is very efficient at delivering its performance, but lacks any sort of aggression/excitement
4. Focus/Fiesta ST - sounds pretty good in the cabin due to a sound imposer (piped engine noise into the cabin). Throttle response not as good as an NA engine - such as that in the old Clio 200
5. GT86 - at last an NA engine, but alas, one that sounds rough/thrashy and strained at high revs. Not a patch on a Honda VTEC at high revs. Shame as the chassis is great. They need to upgrade the cabin and engine to make it feel good value at £25k
6. Forthcoming Civic Type R - Turbo - doesn't bode well
7. Mazda RX8 - dead
8. Nissan 370Z - an NA engine, but again, a bad one. Rough and strained at high revs. Not a soulful engine, nor an aggressive, zingy rev happy one.
There doesn't seem to be any light at the end of the tunnel. The march of the turbo engine for mpg test/emissions reasons appears to be relentless.......
Depressing!!
- And so far, no news of a 370Z replacement..... Mazda appear to be sticking with a Rotary for the forthcoming RX9 which seems madness to me in this day and age, and BMW appear unable to make a decent sports car. The future isn't particularly rosy....
Go and spend 16k on a mint E46 M3. I'm not talking about the rarified end of the market - you know - £50k plus. For those well heeled enough to be able to afford one of those cars, there are plenty of good choices, and good engines. I'm talking about the £20-£30k market - for those of us who live in the real world.
With the exception of the GT86 - pretty much all performance metal in this bracket has, or is going, the turbocharged route.
1. M135i - Engine sounds fake due to artificial engine noise being piped through the car's speakers. Still some turbo lag whn you ask for instant response. Throttle response not as good as an NA engine
2. Renaultsport Megane 265 - Engine sounds a bit industrial. Runs out of puff at 6500rpm. No spine tingling rush to the redline
3. Golf GTI/Leon Cupra/Audi TT - all have a smooth turbo in-line 4, which is very efficient at delivering its performance, but lacks any sort of aggression/excitement
4. Focus/Fiesta ST - sounds pretty good in the cabin due to a sound imposer (piped engine noise into the cabin). Throttle response not as good as an NA engine - such as that in the old Clio 200
5. GT86 - at last an NA engine, but alas, one that sounds rough/thrashy and strained at high revs. Not a patch on a Honda VTEC at high revs. Shame as the chassis is great. They need to upgrade the cabin and engine to make it feel good value at £25k
6. Forthcoming Civic Type R - Turbo - doesn't bode well
7. Mazda RX8 - dead
8. Nissan 370Z - an NA engine, but again, a bad one. Rough and strained at high revs. Not a soulful engine, nor an aggressive, zingy rev happy one.
There doesn't seem to be any light at the end of the tunnel. The march of the turbo engine for mpg test/emissions reasons appears to be relentless.......
Depressing!!
- And so far, no news of a 370Z replacement..... Mazda appear to be sticking with a Rotary for the forthcoming RX9 which seems madness to me in this day and age, and BMW appear unable to make a decent sports car. The future isn't particularly rosy....
mnkiboy said:
You mention throttle response a number of times, but is it really that important in a road car?
Manufacturers tend to soften the throttle response anyway these days in the name of refinement, whether the car has a turbo or not.
I've driven a number of turbo hot hatches, and whilst they might not summon up the full 250bhp in .25 of a second, they're quick enough to not leave you wanting more.
It is important, I drive turbo and N/A every day and the lag is decking annoying. When you get used to instantaneous throttle response even a good turbo car can be annoying at time.Manufacturers tend to soften the throttle response anyway these days in the name of refinement, whether the car has a turbo or not.
I've driven a number of turbo hot hatches, and whilst they might not summon up the full 250bhp in .25 of a second, they're quick enough to not leave you wanting more.
I quite like the mid range that a turbo gives, when you think about it, that's what makes a TDi grunty. In my Quantum I've got an older T25 hybrid that has some lag, but not as much as larger older turbos. It's just about perfect, there's some delay at low revs, but when you're at around 2.5k it starts to get interesting. It runs out of steam at 5k+, but really I dont want to be revving it up there anyway in day to day driving.
I remember driving a hired DS3 petrol I got from Heathrow to avoid a flight to Manchester. Didnt realise it was turbo'd until I got going again from the first service stop. That was blended just right in terms of response and lag.
I think smaller engines and turbos are going to be the future to get the lardy cars of today moving the way we want them to, and there'll be built in responses, at the moment I think the throttle and engine reaction are a bit off, but it's not like anything's completely undriveable, it's just something to get used to. I found the same in my old e46, delayed response but once you knew about it, you adapted and drove around it
I remember driving a hired DS3 petrol I got from Heathrow to avoid a flight to Manchester. Didnt realise it was turbo'd until I got going again from the first service stop. That was blended just right in terms of response and lag.
I think smaller engines and turbos are going to be the future to get the lardy cars of today moving the way we want them to, and there'll be built in responses, at the moment I think the throttle and engine reaction are a bit off, but it's not like anything's completely undriveable, it's just something to get used to. I found the same in my old e46, delayed response but once you knew about it, you adapted and drove around it
Monty Python said:
Not ground breaking, but requires some wholesale changes to the electrical architecture of the vehicle.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff