Will modern cars' compexity stop them becoming classic
Discussion
The indicators on Mrs C's car stopped working. In the old days I would have driven to Halfords, bought an indicator unit and popped it into place; done. Fifteen minutes tops, including driving to Halfords. Instead, after looking under the bonnet completely mystified, I drove to the main agent and asked for someone from service.
"It's the engine management system."
"No, it's the indicators."
"Everything is run through the engine management system. If you're lucky we can reset it. If you're unlucky it's a new unit."
"And a new unit would be...?"
"A thousand pounds roughly."
"A thousand pounds because the indicators stopped working?"
This, I suggest, is a very bad omen for the future of regular cars as classics. A lot of top end cars will become classics as they have always done because they are likely to be owned by people with money. But cars lower down the scale may become too expensive to maintain and will be scrapped. Cars caught in the recent floods are being written off because their electronics have been ruined. This was considerably less likely to happen with coil ignition cars. So much could be done cheaply; a lot of it yourself.
As an alternative to scrapping interesting cars with complicated expensive equipment, will an industry emerge to simplify them and keep them viable?
"It's the engine management system."
"No, it's the indicators."
"Everything is run through the engine management system. If you're lucky we can reset it. If you're unlucky it's a new unit."
"And a new unit would be...?"
"A thousand pounds roughly."
"A thousand pounds because the indicators stopped working?"
This, I suggest, is a very bad omen for the future of regular cars as classics. A lot of top end cars will become classics as they have always done because they are likely to be owned by people with money. But cars lower down the scale may become too expensive to maintain and will be scrapped. Cars caught in the recent floods are being written off because their electronics have been ruined. This was considerably less likely to happen with coil ignition cars. So much could be done cheaply; a lot of it yourself.
As an alternative to scrapping interesting cars with complicated expensive equipment, will an industry emerge to simplify them and keep them viable?
DickyC said:
The indicators on Mrs C's car stopped working. In the old days I would have driven to Halfords, bought an indicator unit and popped it into place; done. Fifteen minutes tops, including driving to Halfords. Instead, after looking under the bonnet completely mystified, I drove to the main agent and asked for someone from service.
"It's the engine management system."
"No, it's the indicators."
"Everything is run through the engine management system. If you're lucky we can reset it. If you're unlucky it's a new unit."
"And a new unit would be...?"
"A thousand pounds roughly."
"A thousand pounds because the indicators stopped working?"
This, I suggest, is a very bad omen for the future of regular cars as classics. A lot of top end cars will become classics as they have always done because they are likely to be owned by people with money. But cars lower down the scale may become too expensive to maintain and will be scrapped. Cars caught in the recent floods are being written off because their electronics have been ruined. This was considerably less likely to happen with coil ignition cars. So much could be done cheaply; a lot of it yourself.
As an alternative to scrapping interesting cars with complicated expensive equipment, will an industry emerge to simplify them and keep them viable?
It already has, plenty of companies around who can repair ECU's etc."It's the engine management system."
"No, it's the indicators."
"Everything is run through the engine management system. If you're lucky we can reset it. If you're unlucky it's a new unit."
"And a new unit would be...?"
"A thousand pounds roughly."
"A thousand pounds because the indicators stopped working?"
This, I suggest, is a very bad omen for the future of regular cars as classics. A lot of top end cars will become classics as they have always done because they are likely to be owned by people with money. But cars lower down the scale may become too expensive to maintain and will be scrapped. Cars caught in the recent floods are being written off because their electronics have been ruined. This was considerably less likely to happen with coil ignition cars. So much could be done cheaply; a lot of it yourself.
As an alternative to scrapping interesting cars with complicated expensive equipment, will an industry emerge to simplify them and keep them viable?
A 10 yr old car would have been "state of the art" at the time, 10yrs on it's bog std stuff. It's always been the way.
DickyC said:
As an alternative to scrapping interesting cars with complicated expensive equipment, will an industry emerge to simplify them and keep them viable?
I'm not sure about simplifying the equipment, but things will certainly evolve to allow modern cars to be taken care of by the enthusiast.It's always been the way. I'm not exactly ancient but I remember the same concerns over ABS, electronic fuel injection, power steering, catalysts, high pressure injection systems, stability control, DPF, yadda yadda yadda.
Technology in cars has always moved on and the people who look after them have had to update their skills to go with it.
Admittedly in the last decade or so the balance has tipped even further towards being able to work with electronics and I think that's an issue for a lot of people who aren't comfortable with them. They're really not much more difficult than a mechanical system - it's just you have to have a base of knowledge as to how they work and that's what a lot of people are lacking.
As an example - right next to me I've got Volvo's VIDA system, I can hook it to my car and do the full main dealer diagnostic suite. VAG-COM etc are available for other marques just as easily and they're not expensive - less than a decent set of spanners.
What we really seem to be lacking is proper diagnostic skills. Because labour rates at dealers are so high it seems they're trained to replace modules not do proper fault finding, but that's a whole other debate
To some degree I'd like to think that the latter would happen alas you're probably right in that modern cars (anything built in the oo... past decade or so) will never become classics simply because of the nigh on insane costs of replacement parts and their almost overwhelming reliance on electronics for just about every aspect of the vehicle and the need to plug the damn things into computers just to replace a light bulb (or rather to reset the flaming warnings).
In my eyes manufacturers are looking like they are loosing the ability to create a car with proper engineering thanks to the reliance on electronics to control steering, suspension, etc... rather than being able to use good old fashioned mechanicals to to the job, keeping things reasonably simple and thus making them relatively cheap to maintain (and assuring possible future classic status in the hands of us plebs).
In my eyes manufacturers are looking like they are loosing the ability to create a car with proper engineering thanks to the reliance on electronics to control steering, suspension, etc... rather than being able to use good old fashioned mechanicals to to the job, keeping things reasonably simple and thus making them relatively cheap to maintain (and assuring possible future classic status in the hands of us plebs).
I work in Heritage parts at Aston Martin and the electronics on the old cars are a real challenge, the Lagonda was way ahead of its time when new, but now the electronics are so antiquated it is hard to source parts/skillsets. A constant battle and the Lagonda's in particular are not that valuable.
I worked @ a maindealer. We had an older techie as the gearbox specialist, the younger guys were often good @ the electronic stuff.
You may end up with the opposite problem, where you loose the mechanical engineering/repair skill. In a few yrs when we are all driving electric cars will be able to find someone to rebuild a gearbox?
You may end up with the opposite problem, where you loose the mechanical engineering/repair skill. In a few yrs when we are all driving electric cars will be able to find someone to rebuild a gearbox?
HumbleJim said:
I worked @ a maindealer. We had an older techie as the gearbox specialist, the younger guys were often good @ the electronic stuff.
You may end up with the opposite problem, where you loose the mechanical engineering/repair skill. In a few yrs when we are all driving electric cars will be able to find someone to rebuild a gearbox?
unlikely since they cars 100 years old are maintained and repaired, infact its becoming easier to make bespoke parts with 3D scanning and printingYou may end up with the opposite problem, where you loose the mechanical engineering/repair skill. In a few yrs when we are all driving electric cars will be able to find someone to rebuild a gearbox?
complex electrics and computer code will be very hard to replace with out manufacturer support
That's true but you'd need a scintering 3D printer for the more robust parts and those suckers are expensive, produce a lot of waste and suck up a heck of a lot of 'leccy but you can print metals as well more robust plastics which for replacement parts is ideal (your common £800 3D printer's output is still, for the most part, a tad too flimsy for use as replacement parts unfortunately)... just need a 3D scanner to save the need for advanced 3D modelling/CAD skills.
Neilperryman said:
I remember when fuel injection started getting common and that was thought to be the end of fixable cars.
As long as there is access to firmware and software anything can be fixed if you have the right tools, parts and knowledge.
Exactly, and now you need to hunt someone down now who can set up carbs. Old skills will be replaced by new, it's the way of the world.As long as there is access to firmware and software anything can be fixed if you have the right tools, parts and knowledge.
I'd be able to bodge that indicator unit if I couldn't afford £1000 for a new ECU. I'd bolt 4 12 Volt indicator lamps like what you get on fair ground rides and classic mini's. Probably get them from RS catalogue. I'd bolt them to the front wings. Then I'd put 2 switch on the dash - left and right. and the I'd get a relay and some wire and fuses, and wire up a new circuit, from the battery. They wouldn't self cancel, but hey.
New POD said:
I'd be able to bodge that indicator unit if I couldn't afford £1000 for a new ECU. I'd bolt 4 12 Volt indicator lamps like what you get on fair ground rides and classic mini's. Probably get them from RS catalogue. I'd bolt them to the front wings. Then I'd put 2 switch on the dash - left and right. and the I'd get a relay and some wire and fuses, and wire up a new circuit, from the battery. They wouldn't self cancel, but hey.
I like your style. 
This is something I've noticed more so over the last few years, A 95 1.3 corolla daily hack I had needed a clutch, So down with the box out with the clutch and off to be relined and new springs popped in cost €45, the hole clutch kit from TOYOTA was €160 still v cheap but wasn't needed. At the same time a friend scrapped a 98 tdi Passat because the cheapest clutch he could get close to €500 it was only worth €1500 and needed afew other bits.
For example say you discover a misfire..
Old car; you go get plugs, leads an maybe a dizzy cap an rotor €80 an its probably sorted.
New car; Is the EML on if so get it plugged in - could cost €80 just for that, or it could be a coil-pack 20-120€ depending on car, Could be the ignition amplifier, Could be a Temp sensor, could be a bad ground, or the ECU,
New Renaults need computers to rewind the break callipers! just to change the pads??
All cars decrease in value as they age unless its a special model, a lot of ten year old cars are dropping to the sub €3000 when an ECU a little magic box is worth half the value of the whole car you won't be long about getting rid!
Just my cents, Oh any hello! pistionheads
For example say you discover a misfire..
Old car; you go get plugs, leads an maybe a dizzy cap an rotor €80 an its probably sorted.
New car; Is the EML on if so get it plugged in - could cost €80 just for that, or it could be a coil-pack 20-120€ depending on car, Could be the ignition amplifier, Could be a Temp sensor, could be a bad ground, or the ECU,
New Renaults need computers to rewind the break callipers! just to change the pads??
All cars decrease in value as they age unless its a special model, a lot of ten year old cars are dropping to the sub €3000 when an ECU a little magic box is worth half the value of the whole car you won't be long about getting rid!
Just my cents, Oh any hello! pistionheads
HumbleJim said:
New POD said:
I'd be able to bodge that indicator unit if I couldn't afford £1000 for a new ECU. I'd bolt 4 12 Volt indicator lamps like what you get on fair ground rides and classic mini's. Probably get them from RS catalogue. I'd bolt them to the front wings. Then I'd put 2 switch on the dash - left and right. and the I'd get a relay and some wire and fuses, and wire up a new circuit, from the battery. They wouldn't self cancel, but hey.
I like your style. New POD said:
I'd be able to bodge that indicator unit if I couldn't afford £1000 for a new ECU. I'd bolt 4 12 Volt indicator lamps like what you get on fair ground rides and classic mini's. Probably get them from RS catalogue. I'd bolt them to the front wings. Then I'd put 2 switch on the dash - left and right. and the I'd get a relay and some wire and fuses, and wire up a new circuit, from the battery. They wouldn't self cancel, but hey.
Without looking it up, I wouldn't be at all surprised if there aren't several reasons why that wouldn't pass the MOT.NPI said:
DickyC said:
"It's the engine management system."
"No, it's the indicators."
"Everything is run through the engine management system.
I don't know, but I'd be fairly amazed if that's true. What car is it?"No, it's the indicators."
"Everything is run through the engine management system.
Now if the manufacturer wants to share as many components as they can across their range of models, the various computers are prime candidates because they can simply not connect any features that aren't to be available on lower range models.
ETA: Then there's the obvious stuff like alarm/immobiliser activation/deactivation, central locking, etc. etc.
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