RE: Honda Civic Type R Concept: Geneva 2014
Wednesday 5th March 2014
Nurburgring honing; if you do it at the right stage in a car's life, is about much more than just proving and perfecting ride and handling. It can actually enhance what the car actually looks like: it's certainly done that with the new Honda Civic Type R Concept. Or so the claim goes.
This prototype's got some work to do yet"These are the essential elements," he said. "We need these for the car to hit the lap time we have targeted for it." The concept has duly been designed around and styled to enhance them.
Honda Civic Type R Concept: Geneva 2014
It's still only a concept but already heat of competition bears down on hot Civic
Senior project designer from the advanced product planning department, Masaru Hasegawa, explained that the starting point wasn't actually a conventional 1.6 diesel Civic. It was a Nurburgring test hack Civic with a biplane rear spoiler, a set of hacked and chopped engineering-spec wider wheelarches, aero venting in the front wings and a beautifully meaty stance courtesy of wide wheels and lowered suspension.
This prototype's got some work to do yet
"Some elements are exaggerated on the concept," he admits, and although he wasn't pointing out which ones were, he did say the heavily vented front wings wouldn't find favour with owners ("racing car designers don't have to worry about stone chips"). It remains to be seen whether that awesome rear wing will reach showrooms: fair play to them if it does.
It's a bit of a shift on for Type R though, isn't it? The cars have not really been renowned for being as visually extreme as this. Indeed not, admitted Hasegawa-san, although that perhaps partly was down to the long since forgotten Japanese 'gentleman's agreement' to limit power to 280hp. Making cars faster back then meant making them lighter, which is how thin-glass specials such as the Integra Type R came about.
Today's buyers wouldn't accept this. They want the luxuries as well as the performance. Hence this more heart on sleeve approach from Type R, to "make the brand more special."
It's normally a dreadful cliche to hear talk of racing cars for the road but, in many ways, the new Civic Type R IS such a thing. Look at it next to the WTCC car on the stand and the parallels are obvious; look at the concept also on the stand and you can see where the building blocks have come from.
"The production version will blend both cars - and it will bring back excitement to Honda." We look forward to seeing more - and finding out whether it brings a Nurburgring record snatched from SEAT to the engineering-led firm too...
Discussion
SonicHedgeHog said:
Well it certainly looks mighty fast. And what a great colour. Alas, I can't help thinking it's going to be £35k which, when you can get a Focus ST for less than £20k, is a big ask. Same goes for the Astra VXR Extreme. My salary is definitely not keeping up with car price inflation.
Agreed on the last sentence! 
This is a car I would really like, and my own car is 'paid off' roughly when it's supposed to be released, but I think payments on a £30k car will be too much for me.
mnkiboy said:
I wouldn't have thought it would be that much. It has to be in direct competition with the ST, Cupra, Golf R, S3, M135 etc. so i'd expect a price tag of about £28k-£30k depending on spec.
A 1.6 Civic diesel estate is £27k. Unless the Type R is the least well equipped car in history there is no way it'll be under £30k. The fancy Astra is estimated to cost £35k. This will be the same. Same as the 235i, Golf R Evo, A45... Unless you buy the hideously ugly, poorly equipped, aquaplaning 135i it's £30k+ for this kind of performance.LiamM45 said:
This is a car I would really like, and my own car is 'paid off' roughly when it's supposed to be released, but I think payments on a £30k car will be too much for me.
Agreed. I can 'afford' it, but I simply can't be bothered to shovel £25k into a car over three years. And that's what it'll cost after trading mine in and paying interest. I can have a lot more fun with the money than sitting in traffic on our potholed roads in this rocket ship. I must be getting old.SonicHedgeHog said:
A 1.6 Civic diesel estate is £27k. Unless the Type R is the least well equipped car in history there is no way it'll be under £30k. The fancy Astra is estimated to cost £35k. This will be the same. Same as the 235i, Golf R Evo, A45... Unless you buy the hideously ugly, poorly equipped, aquaplaning 135i it's £30k+ for this kind of performance.
Possibly, but I think it would be wrong for them to price themselves out of the market like that, even if the car is closer to A45 performance than Focus ST.Either way, like you , i'm in no position to spend £25k on a hot hatch, let alone £35k!
SonicHedgeHog said:
Agreed. I can 'afford' it, but I simply can't be bothered to shovel £25k into a car over three years. And that's what it'll cost after trading mine in and paying interest. I can have a lot more fun with the money than sitting in traffic on our potholed roads in this rocket ship. I must be getting old.
I know, I love my FWD got hatches, but £25-30k on a Honda Civic is hard to justify, I have no doubt it'll be fantastic, but that's a lot of money in a depreciating asset.Axionknight said:
Type R Tom said:
The FN2 was about £17 - £18k at launch in 2006 so in less than 10 years the price has doubled. Really don't know who will buy this and that's coming from someone with an FN2
You really don't know what it's going to cost yet either, do you?I think the last special additions sold for mid £20’s so the price went up a bit over its life span but for me if it’s plus £30k it’s getting away from the point of a hot hatch. A top spec Civic is already £26k so it's bound to be a lot more.
Edited by Type R Tom on Wednesday 5th March 12:29
Edited by Type R Tom on Wednesday 5th March 12:33
The market is bonkers now.
Historically it was really only VW who had the arrogance to price their Golf GTI a few grand above the competition, and people bought it for the prestige factor.
I always saw Ford, Honda, Renault et al as plucky upstarts in this market, delivering a competing product for a sensible price.
Now though, since BMW, Audi and MB have entered the fray people no one seems to be making much of a fuss of non-aspirational brand hot hatches costing £25k-£30k+?
Let's be honest - hot hatches for the most part are what late teens/early twenties people aspire to, before their circumstances change and they upgrade to powerful coupes or estates. I don't know how any teenager is supposed to afford these things, it's not as if their circumstances have improved either, most will have student debts to pay.
I can't see the logic at all in £30k hot hatches when that money buys you nearly new M3s, Audi S5, etc (cue the "new vs used is missing the point" brigade)
Historically it was really only VW who had the arrogance to price their Golf GTI a few grand above the competition, and people bought it for the prestige factor.
I always saw Ford, Honda, Renault et al as plucky upstarts in this market, delivering a competing product for a sensible price.
Now though, since BMW, Audi and MB have entered the fray people no one seems to be making much of a fuss of non-aspirational brand hot hatches costing £25k-£30k+?
Let's be honest - hot hatches for the most part are what late teens/early twenties people aspire to, before their circumstances change and they upgrade to powerful coupes or estates. I don't know how any teenager is supposed to afford these things, it's not as if their circumstances have improved either, most will have student debts to pay.
I can't see the logic at all in £30k hot hatches when that money buys you nearly new M3s, Audi S5, etc (cue the "new vs used is missing the point" brigade)
Durzel said:
Let's be honest - hot hatches for the most part are what late teens/early twenties people aspire to, before their circumstances change and they upgrade to powerful coupes or estates. I don't know how any teenager is supposed to afford these things, it's not as if their circumstances have improved either, most will have student debts to pay.
I can't see the logic at all in £30k hot hatches when that money buys you nearly new M3s, Audi S5, etc (cue the "new vs used is missing the point" brigade)
This is kind of my point, the EP3 came out when I was 19, never imagined I'd own a Type R, let alone a new one but my circumstances changed and within 8 years I had one. It still was a hell of a lot of money (for me) but affordable. Fast forward 5 years and there is no way I could ever stretch to a car £30k plus! I’m not earning twice as much money!I can't see the logic at all in £30k hot hatches when that money buys you nearly new M3s, Audi S5, etc (cue the "new vs used is missing the point" brigade)
''It's normally a dreadful cliche to hear talk of racing cars for the road but, in many ways, the new Civic Type R IS such a thing.''
Erm...no it isn't, not even close.
The DC5 was the only Type R which can be called a 'racing car for the road', as it was designed for a one-make tin-top racing series FIRST...then turned into a road car. It was also available to order from the factory as a 'race base' model....a bodyshell, an engine, four wheels and a seat.
The race base models where completely stripped out, (it even had a special lightweight wiring loom), and did not come with a VIN...they were sold 'For competition use only'.
http://www.japanvehicles.com/newcars/honda/Integra...
Erm...no it isn't, not even close.
The DC5 was the only Type R which can be called a 'racing car for the road', as it was designed for a one-make tin-top racing series FIRST...then turned into a road car. It was also available to order from the factory as a 'race base' model....a bodyshell, an engine, four wheels and a seat.
The race base models where completely stripped out, (it even had a special lightweight wiring loom), and did not come with a VIN...they were sold 'For competition use only'.
http://www.japanvehicles.com/newcars/honda/Integra...
Edited by mp3manager on Wednesday 5th March 13:09
SonicHedgeHog said:
LiamM45 said:
This is a car I would really like, and my own car is 'paid off' roughly when it's supposed to be released, but I think payments on a £30k car will be too much for me.
Agreed. I can 'afford' it, but I simply can't be bothered to shovel £25k into a car over three years. And that's what it'll cost after trading mine in and paying interest. I can have a lot more fun with the money than sitting in traffic on our potholed roads in this rocket ship. I must be getting old.Only hard core nutters will put up with such things these days so it needs to ride right, especially if its going to be priced high with the VW's, Mercedes and BMWs
Otispunkmeyer said:
Funny you should mention potholes. If its anything like the last civic then your spine will thank you for not shovelling your money into one of these for the next 3 years. On the big wheels that car had to have had the worst ride I've ever experienced. Absolutely bone hard and no good on anything other than glass smooth tarmac. How the Swindon lot thought even the base Civic was suitably sprung/damped for British roads I'll never know. They were clearly all on holiday when the tea boy did the suspension for the R. The only spring and damping you get there comes from the tyres, providing you didn't spec the 19 inch wheels, in which case you get nothing!
Only hard core nutters will put up with such things these days so it needs to ride right, especially if its going to be priced high with the VW's, Mercedes and BMWs
The new Type-R may have standard 19" or optional 20" wheels according to a Car article. Oh dear. What is it with manufacturers and enormous wheels nowadays? Only hard core nutters will put up with such things these days so it needs to ride right, especially if its going to be priced high with the VW's, Mercedes and BMWs
Lets hope the new Civic-R is compliant and settled on a typical B-road.
mp3manager said:
''It's normally a dreadful cliche to hear talk of racing cars for the road but, in many ways, the new Civic Type R IS such a thing.''
Erm...no it isn't, not even close.
The DC5 was the only Type R which can be called a 'racing car for the road', as it was designed for a one-make tin-top racing series FIRST...then turned into a road car. It was also available to order from the factory as a 'race base' model....a bodyshell, an engine, four wheels and a seat.
The race base models where completely stripped out, (it even had a special lightweight wiring loom), and did not come with a VIN...they were sold 'For competition use only'.
Complete rubbish. It's based on a Stream and has van spec suspension. No-one would design a race car from a clean sheet with MacPherson struts, especially not when they previously used superior suspension on earlier models.Erm...no it isn't, not even close.
The DC5 was the only Type R which can be called a 'racing car for the road', as it was designed for a one-make tin-top racing series FIRST...then turned into a road car. It was also available to order from the factory as a 'race base' model....a bodyshell, an engine, four wheels and a seat.
The race base models where completely stripped out, (it even had a special lightweight wiring loom), and did not come with a VIN...they were sold 'For competition use only'.
Speaking of superior design, you could also buy race base EK9s and DC2s, which were far better cars from the off.
The Accord CL7 is a better race car than the DC5. This guy shares his insight on it, and I think he's worth listening to, what with his history of racing Hondas...
Edited by Kozy on Wednesday 5th March 14:06
Edited by Kozy on Wednesday 5th March 14:07
Kozy said:
Complete rubbish. It's based on a Stream and has van spec suspension. No-one would design a race car from a clean sheet with MacPherson struts, especially not when they previously used superior suspension on earlier models.
Speaking of superior design, you could also buy race base EK9s and DC2s, which were far better cars from the off.
I'm not particularly clued up on suspension configurations, but am I right in saying that double-wishbone would be the ideal choice? And if so, it's not going to feature on the new car due to cost saving?Speaking of superior design, you could also buy race base EK9s and DC2s, which were far better cars from the off.
There's a chance the new car could have torsion beam rear suspension; is this definitely bad news?
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