German built car better than a UK built version? Why?
Discussion
From another thread, someone implies that a German built Vauxhall (Opel) is better built
than a UK model. I've heard this before.
So I'm just curious, do the production lines in Germany producing cars for the same brand (Vauxhall/Opel) have different quality machine tools/welders/jigs/paint booths than UK models?
I'd be interested to know how a modern car can be better built in one geographical location than another?
Its often quoted that somehow the Germans can screw a car together better than we can but I'm not sure how this is possible when production processes are regulated and supposed to be uniform.
I understood that the Honda were perfectly happy to let Rover build Civics - Japanese car manufacturers are renown for knowing how to build a car.
Is it a myth, is it true, if so why? or is it a throwback from when it was possible to find discarded fag packets that had been sprayed over in the spare wheel wells of Metros?
than a UK model. I've heard this before.
So I'm just curious, do the production lines in Germany producing cars for the same brand (Vauxhall/Opel) have different quality machine tools/welders/jigs/paint booths than UK models?
I'd be interested to know how a modern car can be better built in one geographical location than another?
Its often quoted that somehow the Germans can screw a car together better than we can but I'm not sure how this is possible when production processes are regulated and supposed to be uniform.
I understood that the Honda were perfectly happy to let Rover build Civics - Japanese car manufacturers are renown for knowing how to build a car.
Is it a myth, is it true, if so why? or is it a throwback from when it was possible to find discarded fag packets that had been sprayed over in the spare wheel wells of Metros?
I'm not sure how much truth their is in that in the modern day. The problems at Leyland were legendary, but IMO is doesn't matter if you're got a lackadaisical chimp with an oily hammer or a Nasa genius on the production line, if you build a car from the cheapest parts you can find in an crap factory along a line that includes taking unpainted shells out-doors in all weathers (or any of the equally stupid things they did) it will always be poorly made.
I think this self-loathed idea of British workmanship is fall out from back then - Nissan and Honda factories in the UK are meant to be some of the very best in the world and it's amazing how Land Rover and Jag products improves their reliability with some proper investment.
I think this self-loathed idea of British workmanship is fall out from back then - Nissan and Honda factories in the UK are meant to be some of the very best in the world and it's amazing how Land Rover and Jag products improves their reliability with some proper investment.
I was told that whilst the tolerances are set and rigorously measured, you'd find the non-Germans blindly working to those 'loose' tolerances, whereas the Germans had more pride in their work and would try to get to the minimum tolerance they could.
So (for example) if the tolerance was +/-3mm the Americans/British/Belgians/Dutch/French/Spanish would let anything out that met that tolerance - after all that's what the process said.
However, the German would try to get that to as close to nominal as possible - so maybe +/-1m or less.
Don't know if it's true, but my 20 year old, German-built e34 M5 rattled less with 180k on the clock than my American-built Z4MC did with 30k on it - although it didn't got any worse in the next 70k.
So (for example) if the tolerance was +/-3mm the Americans/British/Belgians/Dutch/French/Spanish would let anything out that met that tolerance - after all that's what the process said.
However, the German would try to get that to as close to nominal as possible - so maybe +/-1m or less.
Don't know if it's true, but my 20 year old, German-built e34 M5 rattled less with 180k on the clock than my American-built Z4MC did with 30k on it - although it didn't got any worse in the next 70k.
P-Jay said:
I think this self-loathed idea of British workmanship is fall out from back then - Nissan and Honda factories in the UK are meant to be some of the very best in the world and it's amazing how Land Rover and Jag products improves their reliability with some proper investment.
There was a business programme on the BBC recently that mentioned JLR and the Japanese car factories in the UK. I think they referenced Foreign management and investment. There was an interview with Nick Scheele I think in CAR Magazine in the mid-late 90s that said when Ford bought Jaguar the Ford quality audit showed the Jags had three times the defects/faults than the Granada.
its mental, and f
king annoying, but live in germany for 6 months or more and you will see how almost everybody just does their job really well. The guys that come round to fix lights, or do a bit of plumbing or wash the windows. they (more or less) just do an immaculate job. there is generally always a 18-20 year old with them as well, getting shouted at, or having to stand around and hold things, or go and get the coffee.
king annoying, but live in germany for 6 months or more and you will see how almost everybody just does their job really well. The guys that come round to fix lights, or do a bit of plumbing or wash the windows. they (more or less) just do an immaculate job. there is generally always a 18-20 year old with them as well, getting shouted at, or having to stand around and hold things, or go and get the coffee. mike-r said:
steveo3002 said:
bone idle english workforce slacking off where ever they can vs germans that do everything by the book
This. I think it's just conjecture based on different cultures/stereotypes. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b038669g
So why is it that among the German car makers, the best outcomes in terms of QC, customer satisfaction, reliability and warranty claims, are from cars made in the Eastern European factories. Cars like the Audi TT ( Hungarian I believe ) and Skoda ( Czech ) are better performing than the cars from German plants.
Why is this?
Why is this?
I 'get' the German thing, I spent a very short time in Bavaria being put up by a German family, the back of their house also doubled as a small factory unit where they made and sold - but tubing things made out of alu - I'm not sure what they did (as you might have guessed).
The Blokes they had working for them cleaning their Vans at the end of their shift, made sure all their tools were in order and organised themselves for the next day. BUT they also got a lot more respect from their employer and in general - In the UK we seem to respect white collar workers far more than blue, IMO in the UK if you don't work in an office you're basically scum. Over there the working lads all wore these waistcoats which seem to have some significance or other, with a lot of pride it seemed to us. What came first, the respect of their community or their pride in their work - who knows.
The Blokes they had working for them cleaning their Vans at the end of their shift, made sure all their tools were in order and organised themselves for the next day. BUT they also got a lot more respect from their employer and in general - In the UK we seem to respect white collar workers far more than blue, IMO in the UK if you don't work in an office you're basically scum. Over there the working lads all wore these waistcoats which seem to have some significance or other, with a lot of pride it seemed to us. What came first, the respect of their community or their pride in their work - who knows.
My uncle had two new mk4 Escort XR3i's in succession in the 80s. The first was Saarlouis-built, the second Halewood-built.
He reckoned the Saarlouis car felt tauter and handled significantly better at 3 yrs and 50,000 miles old than the Halewood car felt when he took delivery. The paint quality, panel fit, and general build quality of the German car was noticeably better, as was its reliability over the period of ownership.
Whether the same thing is true nowadays I can't comment, but for Fords of a certain vintage, the difference was marked.
He reckoned the Saarlouis car felt tauter and handled significantly better at 3 yrs and 50,000 miles old than the Halewood car felt when he took delivery. The paint quality, panel fit, and general build quality of the German car was noticeably better, as was its reliability over the period of ownership.
Whether the same thing is true nowadays I can't comment, but for Fords of a certain vintage, the difference was marked.
OllieC said:
plenty of people will tell you that the German built fords of the 70s were better than their UK cousins, no idea how much truth there is in this.
the German crapis do tend to rust (slightly !) less in my opinion.
My dad specifically bought a Capri Ghia in 1978 as it was German built from better quality steel. The previous 1975 XL rusted before it got to its third birthday.the German crapis do tend to rust (slightly !) less in my opinion.
When I was making seats for Ford in Germany, they put adverts in the newspapers assuring people that any Kuga would be German built, not shipped in from Thailand even though by every internal metric, the Thai product was better.
It was just assumed that if Germans thought they might get a car from Asia it would kill the brand there.
It was just assumed that if Germans thought they might get a car from Asia it would kill the brand there.
toppstuff said:
So why is it that among the German car makers, the best outcomes in terms of QC, customer satisfaction, reliability and warranty claims, are from cars made in the Eastern European factories. Cars like the Audi TT ( Hungarian I believe ) and Skoda ( Czech ) are better performing than the cars from German plants.
Why is this?
O/T but the TT is partially built in Gyor (Hungary) and partially built in Neckarsulm (Germany). I don't mean they both produce complete cars - part of the process involves partually built vehicles travelling back and forth between the plants.Why is this?
I think this topic should be a subject for myth busters.
German cars absolutely do not occupy the top spots for reliability in the various customer surveys.
German cars are not paragons of reliability. Mercs in the 90's were dreadful. Audis have had dodgy coil packs, CVT gearboxes made of cheese, while German cars have single handedly brought the word "DPF failure" into the minds of diesel owners everywhere it seems. Then we have Porsche engine seals failing, GT3's catching fire, A-Classes rolling over when hitting Elks etc etc etc.
Ironically, some of the highest quality in mass produced cars is coming out of the UK. UK factories proudly make Hondas and Nissans and ship them out all over the world, even back to Japan. And the QC of these vehicles is very good indeed.
Meanwhile, the best performing German brands are finding that the best QC among their factories is coming from Hungary and Czech.
Conclusion? German build quality may well have existed in a superior form at times ( 70's Mercs vs British Jags springs to mind ) but the Germans have lacked consistency.
German made cars certainly do not lead the world at the moment in terms of manufacturing QC.
German cars absolutely do not occupy the top spots for reliability in the various customer surveys.
German cars are not paragons of reliability. Mercs in the 90's were dreadful. Audis have had dodgy coil packs, CVT gearboxes made of cheese, while German cars have single handedly brought the word "DPF failure" into the minds of diesel owners everywhere it seems. Then we have Porsche engine seals failing, GT3's catching fire, A-Classes rolling over when hitting Elks etc etc etc.
Ironically, some of the highest quality in mass produced cars is coming out of the UK. UK factories proudly make Hondas and Nissans and ship them out all over the world, even back to Japan. And the QC of these vehicles is very good indeed.
Meanwhile, the best performing German brands are finding that the best QC among their factories is coming from Hungary and Czech.
Conclusion? German build quality may well have existed in a superior form at times ( 70's Mercs vs British Jags springs to mind ) but the Germans have lacked consistency.
German made cars certainly do not lead the world at the moment in terms of manufacturing QC.
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