RE: Great value British prices: Catch it while you can
RE: Great value British prices: Catch it while you can
Thursday 3rd April 2014

Great value British prices: Catch it while you can

Eyeing up a classic purchase? Britain really is the place to buy, as Keith explains



In a break with tradition, and probably in true US TV style, I've decided to pause for breath and have a little Catch It While You Can refresher. There is a reason, so bear with me. Out in the real world, there's a lot of buzz about Europe at the moment, and whether we should be in or out of the EU - and if we do opt out, whether we'll still have free trade with our continental cousins.

LHD fine if it's sold on in Europe, right?
LHD fine if it's sold on in Europe, right?
For those of us who like our older cars with a whiff of the exotic, and who aren't afraid to cross borders in order to buy and sell, it's clear that losing the trade barriers that had been in place for decades may well be a bad idea. Since Christmas, I've reminisced about a lot of very cool cars on PH, but one thing that you can't escape is this - if you're in Britain, pretty much all of those cars are an absolute bargain compared with what they pay for them in, say, Germany.

After a couple of trips to big classic trade shows in Germany during the past couple of months, I've come to the inescapable conclusion that if you're looking to sell any kind of car with a following, you could do much worse than do it over there. But don't worry - you can still come back here and buy your next car through the PH classifieds, taking advantage of our considerably lower prices. And equally, European buyers really should come here shop in the classifieds, and take advantage of our cheaper cars...

26K euros in Germany, didn't make £14K here
26K euros in Germany, didn't make £14K here
Take the Lotus Carlton I previewed in February - it was estimated at £14-16K at H&H's February sale, and in the end it didn't sell, suggesting bidding didn't make it to the lower estimate figure. So, let's say that the natural value of that car is currently around £13K, with £15K possible if the seller's prepared to wait. Without seeing the car first hand, I don't know what state it was in, but let's assume it's a UK condition two car (good, usable, but not perfect). That equates to a German condition three - and in their price guides, such a car would be valued at a cool 26,500 euros, having risen 30 per cent in value in the past 12 months.

A couple of weeks back, I commented on a low-mileage but slightly faded BMW M5 that I'd spotted in Germany for 17,500 euros. That was actually spot on for the German price guides for a condition two car (equal to our condition one - good condition, but not concours). But a similar car popped up in Essen - better presented and polished, and up for, wait for it, 29,900 euros - suggesting that early M5s are quite a way ahead of book over there. And guess what? It sold during the show. What would we pay for the same car here - again in dog knob red? Call it £15,000 with a following wind.

UK E34 values rising but still a relative bargain
UK E34 values rising but still a relative bargain
It's the same for other favourites of mine, highlighted in PH. The 1989-2000 R129-generation Mercedes-Benz 500SL, which I think is currently stunning value in the UK is laughably cheaper here than in Germany. We're looking at £3,000-4,000 for something very usable, but for the Germans, they book at between 10,200-15,900 euros for condition two-three. And that's taking into account of the 30% drop in values over the past 12 months or so.

There will always be the issue of left- and right-hand drive to consider, so of course, either you don't mind about it, or you stick to cars that are available in LHD only. But it does work the other way - Germans love British classics such as the TVR Griffith, Lotus Esprit and MG RV8 in right-hand drive, so bear that in mind, if you're looking at selling.

Cars that come in LHD-only are ahead, too. Early Lancia Delta Integrales are worth more in Europe (booking at 17,000 euros, compared with, say, £8,000 here for equivalent condition cars), and it it's the same with E30-generation BMW M3s, which are rated at 30,000 euros for good, but not mint examples in Germany.

'Laughably cheaper here'
'Laughably cheaper here'
And currently, as we're all part of one big, happy, European Union, you can sell your car over there, drive it over if you want a final last goodbye, and they can register it there, comfortable in the knowledge they don't have to pay any additional taxes. If only it were that simple buying and selling from Japan or the USA. I don't know whether this will change if we do vote to leave the EU, but all I do know is this - before the single market, the free trade of cars, either way, was a whole lot harder back then than it is now. So let's hope things stay the way they are.

Okay, so it's harder buying and selling across borders, but the potential profits are considerable if you don't mind doing your homework, and have friends on the ground that can do the legwork. It's also worth bearing in mind, that there are plenty of cars that are cheaper over there than here - and if you're brave, and combine selling one into an inflated market, and then buying another from another depressed market, the world is your oyster - and you can turn an average car into another brilliant one. As we speak, I am seeking out Renault 5GT Turbos in Greece and Citroen SMs in Italy...

Author
Discussion

Mermaid

Original Poster:

21,492 posts

200 months

Thursday 3rd April 2014
quotequote all
" It's also worth bearing in mind, that there are plenty of cars that are cheaper over there than here - and if you're brave, and combine selling one into an inflated market, and then buying another from another depressed market, the world is your oyster - and you can turn an average car into another brilliant one. As we speak, I am seeking out Renault 5GT Turbos in Greece and Citroen SMs in Italy"


Time to make a list. smile

Nors

1,291 posts

184 months

Thursday 3rd April 2014
quotequote all
The Germans have been coming over here for ur quattro's for some time to take advantage of our more relaxed prices. A mate got full asking price of £12k for something locally valued at £8k. They don't seem to care that they're rhd either.

The German buyer of my mate's car said it was because the German throw away culture and meant there were very few left to buy at 'reasonable' prices. Also, many left over there were not standard any more.

BricktopST205

2,711 posts

163 months

Thursday 3rd April 2014
quotequote all
ST185 and ST205 Celica's barely make 5 grand here. Yet on the continent they are 15-20k euro's easy.


Nors

1,291 posts

184 months

Thursday 3rd April 2014
quotequote all
BricktopST205 said:
ST185 and ST205 Celica's barely make 5 grand here. Yet on the continent they are 15-20k euro's easy.
A guy I know local to me just bought a mint one (ST205) with full service history and all cambelt service type stuff done just before xmas for £3k - shocking amount of car for that money!!!

Finlandia

7,818 posts

260 months

Thursday 3rd April 2014
quotequote all
Said this before, but when I bought my last car in UK, the same (bar LHD/RHD) car was 5x the money in Sweden.

blahblop123

43 posts

172 months

Thursday 3rd April 2014
quotequote all
http://www.autoscout24.com

italians 2nd hand cars seem the cheapest on this this site which covers western europe and some.

bencollins

3,574 posts

234 months

Thursday 3rd April 2014
quotequote all
As first poster said, very car dependent guilietta £2k in Sweden (admittedly sold after a day), Ascona completely renovated £2k and this luvleh-duvleh Grandad cheese-on-wheels £1k
Wierd prices paid, they pay top dollar for yank tanks here, whereas old amazons, vauxhalls, humbers etc cheap as chips.
Ok so these are not exactly audi quattros.
Much frantic manths (man maths) when i saw the alfa.


Wolands Advocate

2,510 posts

245 months

Thursday 3rd April 2014
quotequote all
When selling my Z1 recently (another LHD-only oddity), it was notable that they go for up to £5-10k more in mainland Europe than they do over here.

vincegail

2,642 posts

184 months

Thursday 3rd April 2014
quotequote all
That Delta looks very nice at 50% of the price I'd have to pay over here.

Still in the market for a nice and cheap moneypit Bentley Turbo R biggrin

BNC47

80 posts

172 months

Thursday 3rd April 2014
quotequote all
[quote=bencollins]Wierd prices paid, they pay top dollar for yank tanks here,

So, given your location, do you walk to the 'Power Big Meet' each year?

menoy

142 posts

163 months

Thursday 3rd April 2014
quotequote all
The barrier of LHD/RHD is, at least for me, a very true one - often negating any purchase of the considerably cheaper UK car. Sometimes it's pure torture going through the PH classifieds.

In Poland for example, you will have great trouble registering a RHD car. This went all the way up to the Court of Justice in Luxembourg, which (finally, this year) ruled that current approach of not allowing RHD to be registered is illegal.


But you did let the cat out of the bag with the Delta. Damn you!

900T-R

20,406 posts

286 months

Thursday 3rd April 2014
quotequote all
Hmmm, surely a 'slightly faded' car would be condition 3 on the continent rather than 2 (which is pretty damn good and the highest you can hope for when a car is being used regularly)...


Depressed UK prices do have their impact on the cars' condition at the low/middle end of the price scale though. Any number of delapidated Griffiths and Chimaeras out there, while rarity & used values here mean that cars like this are unlikely to fall into such an unloved state.

Edited by 900T-R on Thursday 3rd April 11:54

993RSGT3

84 posts

203 months

Thursday 3rd April 2014
quotequote all
Alot of the LHD Porsche RSs (964 & 993) have been making their way to Germany, courtesy of a certain Mr Schmitz (http://www.germansportscars.net/GB/about-us.php) for this very reason

roystinho

3,767 posts

204 months

Thursday 3rd April 2014
quotequote all
Have a look at prices of Clio V6s on the continent, the last one I saw was up at around €35,000

bencollins

3,574 posts

234 months

Thursday 3rd April 2014
quotequote all
BNC47]encollins said:
Wierd prices paid, they pay top dollar for yank tanks here,
So, given your location, do you walk to the 'Power Big Meet' each year?
Yep, big power meet is quite amazing, am not at all into big american cars but somehow you get hooked @10000 cars, @50000 people
also like the fact there's a blend of real old heaps, wild customs in amongst the concours winners, oh and the fact everyone is driving instead of parked in a field sitting in a deck chair.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Big_Meet
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kWUJuU-H5A

iloveboost

1,531 posts

191 months

Thursday 3rd April 2014
quotequote all
I've read the the prices of old German cars are more than ours because the cars are even rarer over there. As another poster said it seems like the the economy and labour costs are stronger than ours so I guess it encourages Germans to scrap cars earlier than we do here. Also the MOT test equivalent is harder to pass I think.
I suppose if you went to places where there's a larger wealth gap between the rich and poor you may find the opposite effect as labour will be cheap but there's still a lot of money around to buy nice new cars.

crostonian

2,427 posts

201 months

Thursday 3rd April 2014
quotequote all
German consumer laws are also a lot more favoured toward the buyer meaning that sellers have to cover the cost of any subsequemt mechanical repairs in the first 6 months (I think), this also applies to private sellers, the outcome of this is higher prices to cover future failings.

There are some cheap cars in Italy but there are also many botched and messed about with cars. I would get any purchase from Italy thoroughly inspected, even if from a main dealer.

Hedski

11 posts

211 months

Thursday 3rd April 2014
quotequote all
In light of all the potential cross border trade could we come up with a useful list of the websites to sell or if cheaper buy these cars on the continent?

I know in Germany there's www.suchen.mobile.de which is their auto trader equivalent.

Anybody care to add?

renaultgeek

473 posts

177 months

Thursday 3rd April 2014
quotequote all
"And currently, as we're all part of one big, happy, European Union, you can sell your car over there, drive it over if you want a final last goodbye, and they can register it there, comfortable in the knowledge they don't have to pay any additional taxes."

Ireland, the exception to that rule for some bizarre reason.

menoy

142 posts

163 months

Thursday 3rd April 2014
quotequote all
Hedski said:
In light of all the potential cross border trade could we come up with a useful list of the websites to sell or if cheaper buy these cars on the continent?

I know in Germany there's www.suchen.mobile.de which is their auto trader equivalent.

Anybody care to add?
Mobile.de, autoscout24.com and to a much lesser extent ebay I think cover the majority of the market.