Trader sells to business: SOGA still apply?
Discussion
THREAD UPDATE BELOW
Hi all
My FiL purchased an 11 plate Citroen Dispatch for use in his small Ltd company around 3 months ago. The van was around average price-wise and was on approx 50k miles when purchased. Previously owned by a plumber, we are assuming it's done lots of little trips, my FiL does lots of long motorway work.
Anyway, within 2 weeks of owning the van the dashboard lit up like a christmas tree, DPF, EML, ABS, oil warning, you name it, it appeared and the van went into limp mode. It now reguarly keeps throwing various combinations of these lights on the dash. Summary of trips so far:-
Trip 1
DPF "cleaned" and ecu faults cleared
Trip 2
DPF replace and ecu faults cleared
Trip 3
O2 and ABS sensor replace and ecu faults cleared
Trip 4
Found a boot leaking onto an unnamed sensor, sensor cleaned and boot replaced. ecu faults cleared
Today, it's lit up a number of lights again, including this time, the pollen filter. My FiL has returned it once more and this time faced a bit of push back from the trader. The trader said "you've done 7k miles now" and "this has cost me a fortune", before stating that "as you are a limited company, this is all good will, there is no law that says I have to fix this".
My FiL has asked that they (finally) do some real diagnostics and try to find what he feels is clearly a wiring fault and he has for the first time been given a forecourt loaner by the trader in question (each other time he's had to hire a replacement van). He has not yet gone down the route of, nor suggested, rejection. He likes the van and just wants it reliable.
The trader suggested that if the loom needed to be replaced he would refuse and it would be down to my FiL to pay for the work required.
So, who can clarify? Is the SOGA still useable in business to business transactions? What steps can he take if not?
Cheers in advance for any help
Hi all
My FiL purchased an 11 plate Citroen Dispatch for use in his small Ltd company around 3 months ago. The van was around average price-wise and was on approx 50k miles when purchased. Previously owned by a plumber, we are assuming it's done lots of little trips, my FiL does lots of long motorway work.
Anyway, within 2 weeks of owning the van the dashboard lit up like a christmas tree, DPF, EML, ABS, oil warning, you name it, it appeared and the van went into limp mode. It now reguarly keeps throwing various combinations of these lights on the dash. Summary of trips so far:-
Trip 1
DPF "cleaned" and ecu faults cleared
Trip 2
DPF replace and ecu faults cleared
Trip 3
O2 and ABS sensor replace and ecu faults cleared
Trip 4
Found a boot leaking onto an unnamed sensor, sensor cleaned and boot replaced. ecu faults cleared
Today, it's lit up a number of lights again, including this time, the pollen filter. My FiL has returned it once more and this time faced a bit of push back from the trader. The trader said "you've done 7k miles now" and "this has cost me a fortune", before stating that "as you are a limited company, this is all good will, there is no law that says I have to fix this".
My FiL has asked that they (finally) do some real diagnostics and try to find what he feels is clearly a wiring fault and he has for the first time been given a forecourt loaner by the trader in question (each other time he's had to hire a replacement van). He has not yet gone down the route of, nor suggested, rejection. He likes the van and just wants it reliable.
The trader suggested that if the loom needed to be replaced he would refuse and it would be down to my FiL to pay for the work required.
So, who can clarify? Is the SOGA still useable in business to business transactions? What steps can he take if not?
Cheers in advance for any help
Edited by eltax91 on Friday 23 May 09:57
from memory at least 6 years back ( and 2 bottle of wine tonight) I bought a certain item of office equipment for around £600 from a certain high street retailer.... at the till i was asked - "do you have a business acount with us?" ...I didnt and was talked into opening an account that may offer me some benefits at a later date and the new £600 purchase went through the newly opened account...oddly saving me bugger all..
fast forward 13 months and the high value ( for what it was ) piece of office equipment packs up. I return it to the retailer not thinking it would be a huge issue as it was only just over the manufacturers 12 month warranty and SOGA gives you usually around 4 years.
Ohh , no... sorry sir, we wont do anything with that its over 12 months old.
So I try and use SOGA only to be told that because it was officially bought for the business through a business account the SOGA doesnt come into effect.
If I had bought it at the checkout as I intended and simply then used it for business purposes then it would be covered... absolutley ludicrous, but that was what I was informed ...
fast forward 13 months and the high value ( for what it was ) piece of office equipment packs up. I return it to the retailer not thinking it would be a huge issue as it was only just over the manufacturers 12 month warranty and SOGA gives you usually around 4 years.
Ohh , no... sorry sir, we wont do anything with that its over 12 months old.
So I try and use SOGA only to be told that because it was officially bought for the business through a business account the SOGA doesnt come into effect.
If I had bought it at the checkout as I intended and simply then used it for business purposes then it would be covered... absolutley ludicrous, but that was what I was informed ...
Edited by hedgefinder on Saturday 17th May 00:13
Sale of Goods Act states that the meaning of consumer - a person deals as a consumer if they do not buy something in the course of a business but the seller IS running a business.
A business CAN be treated as a consumer if it is purchasing goods which are ordinarily supplied for private use or consumption. [Example; buying a kettle for the kitchen.] Consumers don't usually buy vans though.
A business CAN be treated as a consumer if it is purchasing goods which are ordinarily supplied for private use or consumption. [Example; buying a kettle for the kitchen.] Consumers don't usually buy vans though.
Ozzie Osmond said:
Sale of Goods Act states that the meaning of consumer - a person deals as a consumer if they do not buy something in the course of a business but the seller IS running a business.
A business CAN be treated as a consumer if it is purchasing goods which are ordinarily supplied for private use or consumption. [Example; buying a kettle for the kitchen.] Consumers don't usually buy vans though.
A business CAN be treated as a consumer if it is purchasing goods which are ordinarily supplied for private use or consumption. [Example; buying a kettle for the kitchen.] Consumers don't usually buy vans though.
Ozzie Osmond said:
Sale of Goods Act states that the meaning of consumer - a person deals as a consumer if they do not buy something in the course of a business but the seller IS running a business.
A business CAN be treated as a consumer if it is purchasing goods which are ordinarily supplied for private use or consumption. [Example; buying a kettle for the kitchen.] Consumers don't usually buy vans though.
Thanks. I've relayed to the FiL, so he is going to play gently gently. He's bought 4 vans from this guy in last 5 years as business has grown and he's about to trade one in for a smaller one with him too. He's going to play on that and get as much fixed as he can before he then stumps up. A business CAN be treated as a consumer if it is purchasing goods which are ordinarily supplied for private use or consumption. [Example; buying a kettle for the kitchen.] Consumers don't usually buy vans though.
Ozzie Osmond said:
Sale of Goods Act states that the meaning of consumer - a person deals as a consumer if they do not buy something in the course of a business but the seller IS running a business.
A business CAN be treated as a consumer if it is purchasing goods which are ordinarily supplied for private use or consumption. [Example; buying a kettle for the kitchen.] Consumers don't usually buy vans though.
I worked somewhere where the £5 asda kettle was purchased by a member of staff, as a "consumer" purchase, and was replaced under SOGA every 9 months, as it was in constant use with 40 or so people using is for about 5 cups each every day. I remember the 4th Free kettle. A business CAN be treated as a consumer if it is purchasing goods which are ordinarily supplied for private use or consumption. [Example; buying a kettle for the kitchen.] Consumers don't usually buy vans though.
It may be worth clarifying some common misunderstandings about the Sale of Goods Act 1979. Parts of the Act apply to EVERY sale of goods, whether that sale is made by a business, by a private seller, and whether to a business or to a business seller. Some parts of the Act only apply when a business sells to a consumer. In particular, see section 14, which imposes obligations as to quality and suitability of the goods sold.
It appears unlikely that the OP's FiL bought the van as a consumer. He could have sought to agree express stipulations as to quality, but absent those may find that the common law approach applies. This basically means (I summarise broadly) that absent misdescription of the thing sold by the seller, the buyer takes the risk of the thing sold being defective.
It appears unlikely that the OP's FiL bought the van as a consumer. He could have sought to agree express stipulations as to quality, but absent those may find that the common law approach applies. This basically means (I summarise broadly) that absent misdescription of the thing sold by the seller, the buyer takes the risk of the thing sold being defective.
Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 18th May 08:48
The implied warranty as to reasonable quality applies to any sale in the course of a business - i.e. the buyer doesn't necessarily need to be a conumer. Google s.14(2)-(2C) of the act, which give a bit more detail as to reasonable quality (although also note the exceptions regarding ability to discover the defect through examination and matters drawn to the buyer's attention pre-sale).
The SGA isn't the only potential remedy here. Consider whether the garage made any statements about the quality of the van (e.g. 'it's fault free' or similar). In that case, there is an argument that there is a simple contractual warranty that the van was in whatever condition described, and there may have been a misrepresentation.
Of course, the garage's contractual documentation may exclude some/all of the above. This is where there is a big difference between acting as a consumer (where the implied warranties cannot be excluded) and as a business (where they can).
The last thing to think about is that the warranties described above are given at the time of the sale - they aren't saying the van will be fault free forever/for a particular period. So if the fault has developed post-sale the garage may just say that's tough luck. Whether it developed pre- or post- sale, it's harder to argue the point 7k miles down the line.
Not formal legal advice, get some professional assistance if in doubt. Hope that helps.
The SGA isn't the only potential remedy here. Consider whether the garage made any statements about the quality of the van (e.g. 'it's fault free' or similar). In that case, there is an argument that there is a simple contractual warranty that the van was in whatever condition described, and there may have been a misrepresentation.
Of course, the garage's contractual documentation may exclude some/all of the above. This is where there is a big difference between acting as a consumer (where the implied warranties cannot be excluded) and as a business (where they can).
The last thing to think about is that the warranties described above are given at the time of the sale - they aren't saying the van will be fault free forever/for a particular period. So if the fault has developed post-sale the garage may just say that's tough luck. Whether it developed pre- or post- sale, it's harder to argue the point 7k miles down the line.
Not formal legal advice, get some professional assistance if in doubt. Hope that helps.
My FiL has been to collect the van today. The garage can find nothing wrong with it. 2 hours of "advanced diagnostics" at Pug could find nothing wrong with it.
The trader has been very good about it. He's said there is nothing more he can do, but he is willing to give a full refund (or the purchase price off any van in stock). Considering 7k miles has passed, that's, IMHO a very generous offer.
The trader has been very good about it. He's said there is nothing more he can do, but he is willing to give a full refund (or the purchase price off any van in stock). Considering 7k miles has passed, that's, IMHO a very generous offer.
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