Big Brother is watching (how) you (drive). WUNELLI

[SimonOcean]

Have you ever heard of WUNELLI? If you enjoy driving, then you should be aware: technology that monitors how you drive. When you take journeys. How much you accelerate and brake etc. etc. And it wants to make money by selling this data to insurance companies. (It doesn't measure if you are painting your nails while doing a steady 70 mph on the motorway, eating a cornish pasty while driving around a roundabout, checking out your twitter account on your infotainment system while overtaking a stationary bus etc etc).

Big Brother in all his gory, ghastly glory.

Of course, many people that treat driving as a chore will be delighted. But I imagine most of people on this forum will be unhappy indeed.

https://www.wunelli.com/about-us.aspx

Recently purchased by Reed Elsevier - big Anglo Dutch Information media company.

[helena123]

Sounds like the 'black box' scam which some insurance companies use. I had one in my car after I passed my test, as it was the cheapest option. They put your insurance up for things like harsh breaking, night driving etc. Driving around London with P plates on, naturally, I was harsh breaking all the time because other drivers were constantly cutting me up and I drove at night because it's safer. The next year they tried to automatically renew my insurance at £1000 more because of 'bad driving'. I didn't realise they could sell information to other insurance companies, that's very unfair.

[Riley Blue]

helena123 said:

Sounds like the 'black box' scam which some insurance companies use. I had one in my car after I passed my test, as it was the cheapest option. They put your insurance up for things like harsh breaking, night driving etc. Driving around London with P plates on, naturally, I was harsh breaking all the time because other drivers were constantly cutting me up and I drove at night because it's safer. The next year they tried to automatically renew my insurance at £1000 more because of 'bad driving'. I didn't realise they could sell information to other insurance companies, that's very unfair.

You should have done some research before having it fitted if you didn't know the restrictions it placed on you.

[B3ALP]

helena123 said:

Sounds like the 'black box' scam which some insurance companies use. I had one in my car after I passed my test, as it was the cheapest option. They put your insurance up for things like harsh breaking, night driving etc. Driving around London with P plates on, naturally, I was harsh breaking all the time because other drivers were constantly cutting me up and I drove at night because it's safer. The next year they tried to automatically renew my insurance at £1000 more because of 'bad driving'. I didn't realise they could sell information to other insurance companies, that's very unfair.

But it didn't go up by a thousand did it?

Most insurance companies will auto renew unless you tell them otherwise.

[SimonOcean]

Well the German auto lobby ought to wake up to this and put a stop to it. It is on thing being forced to install a tracking device on your expensive performance car to satisfy the insurance company, but how would we feel if insurance companies started to mandate a Wunelli black box? Reed Elsevier will push this technology hard and the insurance companies too. It will take an organised effort to push back. Bit like an NRA, except to keep the joy of driving alive.

[Terminator X]

We do seem to be sleepwalking towards an age where a lot of our private data is collected and sold on by third parties ... time to go off grid



TX.

[Alucidnation]

So this must be about the third thread on the same subject.

[SimonOcean]

Alucidnation said:

So this must be about the third thread on the same subject.

Oh sorry: I did not realise.

[jamiebae]

There are dozens of companies who fit kit like this, not just the one you mentioned.

They fit the kit when you take out an insurance policy and agree to have it fitted, and they can't sell the data on without your permission - when the policy ends so does the data collection.

If you don't want a tracking device in your car it's easy to avoid - just take out a regular insurance policy, not one based on your usage.

[SimonOcean]

jamiebae said:

There are dozens of companies who fit kit like this, not just the one you mentioned.

They fit the kit when you take out an insurance policy and agree to have it fitted, and they can't sell the data on without your permission - when the policy ends so does the data collection.

If you don't want a tracking device in your car it's easy to avoid - just take out a regular insurance policy, not one based on your usage.

I read a report which suggested that if acceptance of opt-in black boxes gained acceptance (which it has not so far) then the insurance company would move towards making this mandatory. Thin end of the wedge and all that. It needs to be stomped on.

[eldar]

SimonOcean said:

I read a report which suggested that if acceptance of opt-in black boxes gained acceptance (which it has not so far) then the insurance company would move towards making this mandatory. Thin end of the wedge and all that. It needs to be stomped on.

There would be companies that wouldn't bother, as it wouldn't be cost effective. Couldn't see them making a profit on my premium if a box had to be fitted.

Unless road pricing, but that's a different matter.

[Dave Hedgehog]

SimonOcean said:

jamiebae said:

There are dozens of companies who fit kit like this, not just the one you mentioned.

They fit the kit when you take out an insurance policy and agree to have it fitted, and they can't sell the data on without your permission - when the policy ends so does the data collection.

If you don't want a tracking device in your car it's easy to avoid - just take out a regular insurance policy, not one based on your usage.

I read a report which suggested that if acceptance of opt-in black boxes gained acceptance (which it has not so far) then the insurance company would move towards making this mandatory. Thin end of the wedge and all that. It needs to be stomped on.

there are specialist insurance firms now who often deal with some very odd stuff, i am sure they will remain about for enthusiasts

the big concerns are road pricing devices that also have the capability to automatically generate speeding fines, self driving cars (which could easily be set to take over from you if your driving becomes to enthusiastic) and enforced EV cars on the grounds of saving the planet (even thou china, india etc are doing sod all about it)

[jamiebae]

SimonOcean said:

jamiebae said:

There are dozens of companies who fit kit like this, not just the one you mentioned.

They fit the kit when you take out an insurance policy and agree to have it fitted, and they can't sell the data on without your permission - when the policy ends so does the data collection.

If you don't want a tracking device in your car it's easy to avoid - just take out a regular insurance policy, not one based on your usage.

I read a report which suggested that if acceptance of opt-in black boxes gained acceptance (which it has not so far) then the insurance company would move towards making this mandatory. Thin end of the wedge and all that. It needs to be stomped on.

Let me put this in really simple terms, as you seem to be struggling with the concept of insurance underwriting and how it works.

If you agree to have a black box then you are selecting yourself as someone who believes they are low risk, the stats show that if you make this choice then you probably are actually lower risk so your premium reduces to reflect this. It won't become mandatory unless the government make it so, it is up to you if you consider your driving style low or high risk to make that choice. It's all about self selection, clearly someone who does all their driving at high speed and at night isn't going to take this kind of policy, but someone like my sister who does 6k miles a year on quiet roads would.

There is also a (big) cost to administer these policies, so let's say the risk is reduced by 10% (this is probably too high really) then on a £1k premium you could reduce it by £100. Fitting the box costs more than that, before you've even got any data off it, so it isn't viable unless you'd otherwise be paying £1,500+ on a normal policy.

It isn't going to become mass market for a very long time, and won't be mandatory until GPS tracked road pricing is introduced, so you can take your tin foil hat off and maybe some of the thousands of teenage drivers who have saved a four figure sum on their premiums are actually really happy with the system.

Also, if you have an accident the black box is suddenly your best friend when the other driver starts to claim you were speeding or that you reversed into them...

[Terminator X]

"It isn't going to become mass market for a very long time" in 2015 then when the EU make black boxes mandatory in new cars

TX.

[jamiebae]

Terminator X said:

"It isn't going to become mass market for a very long time" in 2015 then when the EU make black boxes mandatory in new cars

TX.

That's e-call, which is a GPS locator and some data from the OBD system if you have an accident, and only on brand new cars obviously. The main issue with usage based insurance becoming widely adopted is data protection and ownership, as well as the hardware not being there in most of the cars where it would be attractive to offer it.

[Funkycoldribena]

helena123 said:

Sounds like the 'black box' scam which some insurance companies use. I had one in my car after I passed my test, as it was the cheapest option. They put your insurance up for things like harsh breaking, night driving etc. Driving around London with P plates on, naturally, I was harsh breaking all the time because other drivers were constantly cutting me up and I drove at night because it's safer. The next year they tried to automatically renew my insurance at £1000 more because of 'bad driving'. I didn't realise they could sell information to other insurance companies, that's very unfair.

Its not unfair if you're breaking a lot.

[Terminator X]

jamiebae said:

That's e-call, which is a GPS locator and some data from the OBD system if you have an accident, and only on brand new cars obviously. The main issue with usage based insurance becoming widely adopted is data protection and ownership, as well as the hardware not being there in most of the cars where it would be attractive to offer it.

So you don't think it will / can be used to monitor speed etc? Two words, scope creep.

TX.

[jamiebae]

Terminator X said:

jamiebae said:

That's e-call, which is a GPS locator and some data from the OBD system if you have an accident, and only on brand new cars obviously. The main issue with usage based insurance becoming widely adopted is data protection and ownership, as well as the hardware not being there in most of the cars where it would be attractive to offer it.

So you don't think it will / can be used to monitor speed etc? Two words, scope creep.

TX.

It is extremely unlikely that it will go that way, the black boxes aren't suitably calibrated, and also there's the obvious civil liberties aspect which no government is likely to want to be associated with for fear of riots and general disorder, and the subsequent massive defeat at the next election.

[helena123]

Riley Blue said:

helena123 said:

Sounds like the 'black box' scam which some insurance companies use. I had one in my car after I passed my test, as it was the cheapest option. They put your insurance up for things like harsh breaking, night driving etc. Driving around London with P plates on, naturally, I was harsh breaking all the time because other drivers were constantly cutting me up and I drove at night because it's safer. The next year they tried to automatically renew my insurance at £1000 more because of 'bad driving'. I didn't realise they could sell information to other insurance companies, that's very unfair.

You should have done some research before having it fitted if you didn't know the restrictions it placed on you.

As I said, it was the cheapest option. As a new driver, in my area, it was the only affordable one. I didn't say anything about being restricted.

[helena123]

Funkycoldribena said:

helena123 said:

Sounds like the 'black box' scam which some insurance companies use. I had one in my car after I passed my test, as it was the cheapest option. They put your insurance up for things like harsh breaking, night driving etc. Driving around London with P plates on, naturally, I was harsh breaking all the time because other drivers were constantly cutting me up and I drove at night because it's safer. The next year they tried to automatically renew my insurance at £1000 more because of 'bad driving'. I didn't realise they could sell information to other insurance companies, that's very unfair.

Its not unfair if you're breaking a lot.

Maybe, the other option would have been to smash into people who pull out in front of me instead. A human (with common sense) would call breaking to avoid a collision the correct option. A robotic box however, can not compute the situation, just the breaking. People in London drive in such a way that you have to be quick on the breaks sometimes.