Big Brake kits day to day
Discussion
How easy are big brake kits to live with day to day in terms of fettling and maintenance? I ask because im considering for my car. I understand they're not on sliders like normal calipers, so are the pistons self aligning? Do you have to constantly fettle the alignment to prevent uneven pad wear? I'm thinking of multipiston calipers like your brembos, AP, wilwood etc.
Trtj said:
How easy are big brake kits to live with day to day in terms of fettling and maintenance? I ask because im considering for my car. I understand they're not on sliders like normal calipers, so are the pistons self aligning? Do you have to constantly fettle the alignment to prevent uneven pad wear? I'm thinking of multipiston calipers like your brembos, AP, wilwood etc.
You can get "big brake" kits that use sliding calipers, so this term is not synonymous with opposed piston calipers.Opposed piston calipers for road need no special maintenance over and above sliding calipers, the body of the caliper is fixed and the pistons move out on both side to compensate for wear. Note that some competition calipers (e.g. some Wilwood models) have no integral dust seals which makes them less suitable for a road car.
Plenty of standard cars were/are fitted with 4 pot calipers from the factory.
Some calipers will come with proper dust shields but most don't. Pads will tend to last a little less time than most OEM spec pads (although on a par with other high performance pads) so just use that slightly more frequent replacement schedule to give the pistons a blast with cleaner, cycle them and then lube up. It really doesn't take more than a few minutes to do per side.
Look for decent kits from Brembo, Alcon (currently some great deals on the go) or AP and you won't go wrong for UK use. Some others are credible dependant on the car and use but the main parties are good. Sometimes you can get cheaper kits than the genuine AP offerings which might use third party bells/brackets/rotors. Again, some are better than others. I wouldn't necessarily pay a premium for AP rotors over something from Reyland or Godspeed as the AP rotors don't really seem to be anything special. Something from the likes of Performance Friction or Alcon though are worth it.
Another point worth mentioning is that with OEM spec rotors there's usually a large brake surface and minimal airgap between the surfaces. Racing rotors tend to be different, and the majority of the total rotor thickness is given up to airgap for consistent temperatures and cooling under hard use. The downside to this is that you'll see less life from a pair of discs before they need replacing. AP recommend 1.5mm wear per side before replacement on the 330x28mm's I use, and at £500 a set of rotors that can get expensive if you're only getting 20-25k from a set (or less). A lot of guys use pattern rotors from the likes of Reyland (£255 for mine) which are on a par with AP. At the top end you have PF discs which reportedly last anything up to twice as long as AP so they can end up a cheaper option in the long run. To offset the more expensive rotors you'll usually find that the likes of AP and Brembo will use fairly standard pads which are available in both a wide range of compounds, and at a cheaper price than they would be for your OEM setup.
Look for decent kits from Brembo, Alcon (currently some great deals on the go) or AP and you won't go wrong for UK use. Some others are credible dependant on the car and use but the main parties are good. Sometimes you can get cheaper kits than the genuine AP offerings which might use third party bells/brackets/rotors. Again, some are better than others. I wouldn't necessarily pay a premium for AP rotors over something from Reyland or Godspeed as the AP rotors don't really seem to be anything special. Something from the likes of Performance Friction or Alcon though are worth it.
Another point worth mentioning is that with OEM spec rotors there's usually a large brake surface and minimal airgap between the surfaces. Racing rotors tend to be different, and the majority of the total rotor thickness is given up to airgap for consistent temperatures and cooling under hard use. The downside to this is that you'll see less life from a pair of discs before they need replacing. AP recommend 1.5mm wear per side before replacement on the 330x28mm's I use, and at £500 a set of rotors that can get expensive if you're only getting 20-25k from a set (or less). A lot of guys use pattern rotors from the likes of Reyland (£255 for mine) which are on a par with AP. At the top end you have PF discs which reportedly last anything up to twice as long as AP so they can end up a cheaper option in the long run. To offset the more expensive rotors you'll usually find that the likes of AP and Brembo will use fairly standard pads which are available in both a wide range of compounds, and at a cheaper price than they would be for your OEM setup.
Edited by Ennoch on Wednesday 2nd July 12:29
E46 M3 Brakes are pretty poor out the box; have you already removed the blanking plate to the cooling ducts? Plenty of M3 owners (IIRC) run the AP (CSL?) setup which I'd probably go for if it was my money given the proven track record of both the company, and the kit they offer off the shelf. Uprated pads would definitely help your stock brakes but you need to remember that you will lose cold braking performance if you go for anything other than a mild fast road pad. Something like M1166 Mintex (ie stage rally pads) will be amazing once you've got the brakes running hot but they will seriously impair your ability to do an emergency stop if you haven't touched them for a while and they're stone cold.
AP pistons have a teflon impregnated coating and are hard anodized so even the ones which don't have dust seals aren't a 'bad' caliper to use on road. The standard 'go to' for years was the CP5200 which I had the original version of on my old Vectra ST200, and now have the revised version of on my Scoob. Neither really require any particular TLC other than I like to give the pistons a quick clean up after each set of pads. Don't be put off the by lack of dust seals, the big horror stories come from the cheapos like K-Sport where they have no dust shield and the piston seal itself moves within the caliper (rather than the piston moving in the seal). This causes wear to the caliper and after a while leaves the caliper unusable as you can't simply rebuild with new seals and pistons. I believe they have now changed this design but the basic moral of that is to go for a known quantity if you want it to last!
AP pistons have a teflon impregnated coating and are hard anodized so even the ones which don't have dust seals aren't a 'bad' caliper to use on road. The standard 'go to' for years was the CP5200 which I had the original version of on my old Vectra ST200, and now have the revised version of on my Scoob. Neither really require any particular TLC other than I like to give the pistons a quick clean up after each set of pads. Don't be put off the by lack of dust seals, the big horror stories come from the cheapos like K-Sport where they have no dust shield and the piston seal itself moves within the caliper (rather than the piston moving in the seal). This causes wear to the caliper and after a while leaves the caliper unusable as you can't simply rebuild with new seals and pistons. I believe they have now changed this design but the basic moral of that is to go for a known quantity if you want it to last!
I work for Alcon and anything that we sell that isn't specifically for motorsport is completely suitable for road use with no special maintenance over and above a normal caliper, in fact less if you consider that sliders should be serviced or replaced regularly. I'd expect the other makes to be the same.
As said wiper seals are generally advisable for road use (typically they're absent on motorsport items) but not necessary. It is worth making sure the pistons are cleaned periodically though.
In terms of pad wear from experience I wouldn't expect it to be significantly or at all worse than standard with the right pad material for your usage, in fact generally with a larger pad area it should be better.
Worth pointing out that if the discs seem pricey on first glance then typically they are separate rotor/bell arrangements which will only require the rotor replacing in the future.
We also do a well regarded kit for the E46, it shouldn't be too hard to find a dealer.
As said wiper seals are generally advisable for road use (typically they're absent on motorsport items) but not necessary. It is worth making sure the pistons are cleaned periodically though.
In terms of pad wear from experience I wouldn't expect it to be significantly or at all worse than standard with the right pad material for your usage, in fact generally with a larger pad area it should be better.
Worth pointing out that if the discs seem pricey on first glance then typically they are separate rotor/bell arrangements which will only require the rotor replacing in the future.
We also do a well regarded kit for the E46, it shouldn't be too hard to find a dealer.
Edited by The Wookie on Wednesday 2nd July 16:45
probably doesn't help much but my leon cupra R has brembo's all round - fronts are 4 pot twin opposed. So, solid mounted rather than sliding.
bit noisy (squeaky, clunky on change of direction) but for me this is a non-issue.
When i bought the car, there was a pretty bad vibration which reading the forum seems to be fairly common, but since changing the pads and discs, and bedding them in properly, it's been absolutely fine
haven't had to really test the capability for example on track, but i'm sure a good part of the performance is down to the pads. I went cheap and got Pagid from ECP. if i wanted to spend four times the money, i could have upgraded to Ferodo DS2500. but mines a daily not a track car.
bit noisy (squeaky, clunky on change of direction) but for me this is a non-issue.
When i bought the car, there was a pretty bad vibration which reading the forum seems to be fairly common, but since changing the pads and discs, and bedding them in properly, it's been absolutely fine
haven't had to really test the capability for example on track, but i'm sure a good part of the performance is down to the pads. I went cheap and got Pagid from ECP. if i wanted to spend four times the money, i could have upgraded to Ferodo DS2500. but mines a daily not a track car.
skinny said:
probably doesn't help much but my leon cupra R has brembo's all round - fronts are 4 pot twin opposed. So, solid mounted rather than sliding.
bit noisy (squeaky, clunky on change of direction) but for me this is a non-issue.
When i bought the car, there was a pretty bad vibration which reading the forum seems to be fairly common, but since changing the pads and discs, and bedding them in properly, it's been absolutely fine
haven't had to really test the capability for example on track, but i'm sure a good part of the performance is down to the pads. I went cheap and got Pagid from ECP. if i wanted to spend four times the money, i could have upgraded to Ferodo DS2500. but mines a daily not a track car.
Again, probably doesn't help much but...bit noisy (squeaky, clunky on change of direction) but for me this is a non-issue.
When i bought the car, there was a pretty bad vibration which reading the forum seems to be fairly common, but since changing the pads and discs, and bedding them in properly, it's been absolutely fine
haven't had to really test the capability for example on track, but i'm sure a good part of the performance is down to the pads. I went cheap and got Pagid from ECP. if i wanted to spend four times the money, i could have upgraded to Ferodo DS2500. but mines a daily not a track car.
My 306 has standard capilers, genuine discs and DS2500 pads. They're squeaky, clunky and a bit too 'grabby' round town. Once warm on a b-road run, they're awesome. Well able to exceed the limits of traction if I'm not careful. The difference between the DS2500s and cheapie ECP pads is astonishing.
Mind's a daily as well, and I think the money on pads was well spent, especially compared to the cost of a set of brembos.
skinny said:
probably doesn't help much but my leon cupra R has brembo's all round - fronts are 4 pot twin opposed. So, solid mounted rather than sliding.
bit noisy (squeaky, clunky on change of direction) but for me this is a non-issue.
When i bought the car, there was a pretty bad vibration which reading the forum seems to be fairly common, but since changing the pads and discs, and bedding them in properly, it's been absolutely fine
haven't had to really test the capability for example on track, but i'm sure a good part of the performance is down to the pads. I went cheap and got Pagid from ECP. if i wanted to spend four times the money, i could have upgraded to Ferodo DS2500. but mines a daily not a track car.
The DS2500s are perfectly fine for road use, and the difference over standard/pattern pads is like night and day. You callipers are the same ones I had on my Fiat Coupe 20VT, I went from Brembo pads to DS2500 and I was astonished at the difference. The initial bite was better, modulation was improved and fade resistance was in a different league.bit noisy (squeaky, clunky on change of direction) but for me this is a non-issue.
When i bought the car, there was a pretty bad vibration which reading the forum seems to be fairly common, but since changing the pads and discs, and bedding them in properly, it's been absolutely fine
haven't had to really test the capability for example on track, but i'm sure a good part of the performance is down to the pads. I went cheap and got Pagid from ECP. if i wanted to spend four times the money, i could have upgraded to Ferodo DS2500. but mines a daily not a track car.
It feels like a lot of money to spend compared to pattern parts, but it's absolutely worth it.
My Audi S2 was woefully under-specified with stock brakes when i bought it, given the performance and capabilities of the car, so are one of the first things i upgraded.
I've done multiple updates over 8 years to get where it is now, as the car has become more fast road / track use and isn't used on a daily basis as it was originally. I can't actually upgrade them anymore unless i want to go bigger than 18" wheels.
The motivation for me was initially for road-use, to know that i had the extra braking capability if i needed it. Then as i started to track the car it became about consistency, being able to repeatedly have the brakes perform lap after lap, and about maintaining the stability of the car under braking with the larger bite and increasing speed it would carry into corners.
In terms of maintenance none of the upgrades have needed more maintenance than a standard setup. Simply you just replace the disks / pads as required.
For road use i found the 996 monoblocks squealed terribly but after changing pads to DS2500 and fitting the anti-squeal shims it was only really at low speeds. With the RS4/6 setup currently on the front there is no abnormal noise on the road and if it wasn't for some other mods it would be perfectly comfortable to drive around on a day-to-day basis.
I don't even find with the hard use the brakes are consumed quickly either. The rears seem to last for ever and the fronts only need replacing every few years lasting for many roads and track miles, unless you warp the discs
This was an early Brembo upgrade which was better than OEM but still not comfortable braking heavily.
Which then went to a 4-pot 996 monoblock setup with 323x32mm.
These are the original rears which you can barely see!
The rears then went to a urS4/6 280x22mm vented setup to balance out the car under braking and which IMO gave the ultimate bang-for-buck road-going perfectly balanced brake setup on this car.
The fronts later became 8-pot RS4/6 365x34mm (with phaeton discs to match the hubs) to give ultimate braking performance and consistency over many Nurburgring laps, and at which point there's not a lot of space behind an 18" alloy!
This was my setup for quite a while but unsettled the car balance under braking, so recently as the rear discs/pads needed replacing i've had them upgraded to a 4-pot 996 monoblock 330x22mm setup requiring a separate R8/Gallardo handbrake caliper and PF pads all round.
This is probably now the ultimate braking setup for this specific car. I'm not sure what else you could possibly do!
I've done multiple updates over 8 years to get where it is now, as the car has become more fast road / track use and isn't used on a daily basis as it was originally. I can't actually upgrade them anymore unless i want to go bigger than 18" wheels.
The motivation for me was initially for road-use, to know that i had the extra braking capability if i needed it. Then as i started to track the car it became about consistency, being able to repeatedly have the brakes perform lap after lap, and about maintaining the stability of the car under braking with the larger bite and increasing speed it would carry into corners.
In terms of maintenance none of the upgrades have needed more maintenance than a standard setup. Simply you just replace the disks / pads as required.
For road use i found the 996 monoblocks squealed terribly but after changing pads to DS2500 and fitting the anti-squeal shims it was only really at low speeds. With the RS4/6 setup currently on the front there is no abnormal noise on the road and if it wasn't for some other mods it would be perfectly comfortable to drive around on a day-to-day basis.
I don't even find with the hard use the brakes are consumed quickly either. The rears seem to last for ever and the fronts only need replacing every few years lasting for many roads and track miles, unless you warp the discs
This was an early Brembo upgrade which was better than OEM but still not comfortable braking heavily.
Which then went to a 4-pot 996 monoblock setup with 323x32mm.
These are the original rears which you can barely see!
The rears then went to a urS4/6 280x22mm vented setup to balance out the car under braking and which IMO gave the ultimate bang-for-buck road-going perfectly balanced brake setup on this car.
The fronts later became 8-pot RS4/6 365x34mm (with phaeton discs to match the hubs) to give ultimate braking performance and consistency over many Nurburgring laps, and at which point there's not a lot of space behind an 18" alloy!
This was my setup for quite a while but unsettled the car balance under braking, so recently as the rear discs/pads needed replacing i've had them upgraded to a 4-pot 996 monoblock 330x22mm setup requiring a separate R8/Gallardo handbrake caliper and PF pads all round.
This is probably now the ultimate braking setup for this specific car. I'm not sure what else you could possibly do!
What an interesting thread. I've preferred piston brakes over siding calipers for performance and looks. Brakes on my previous R35 GTR was amazing.
Not too sure about current brakes on E92 M3...just doesn't inspire confidence. Perhaps I'll try an upgraded brake pad to see if it helps.
Not too sure about current brakes on E92 M3...just doesn't inspire confidence. Perhaps I'll try an upgraded brake pad to see if it helps.
crazy about cars said:
Not too sure about current brakes on E92 M3...just doesn't inspire confidence. Perhaps I'll try an upgraded brake pad to see if it helps.
In my experience, lack of "confidence" in the brakes can mean one of two things - either poor initial bite if the problem is at the start of the braking phase, or fade if it's later on with hot brakes. If the former, pad compound can make a huge difference, as can simple things like new brake fluid and better hoses. If it's later in the braking phase that you lack confidence, you either need better heat dissipation or pads which maintain their coefficient of friction at higher temperatures. The problem with high temperature pads, is they are quite often poor when cold, which on a road car is crap. kambites said:
In my experience, lack of "confidence" in the brakes can mean one of two things - either poor initial bite if the problem is at the start of the braking phase, or fade if it's later on with hot brakes. If the former, pad compound can make a huge difference, as can simple things like new brake fluid and better hoses. If it's later in the braking phase that you lack confidence, you either need better heat dissipation or pads which maintain their coefficient of friction at higher temperatures. The problem with high temperature pads, is they are quite often poor when cold, which on a road car is crap.
Just had a brake fluid service from BMW 2 weeks ago 
Perhaps I'm too used to piston brakes. On the way back from work there is a nice A road with many corners which I take when the weather is good. I like to brake late and hard into a corner and after a few corners I notice the degradation of braking performance.I agree on your point about cold temp performance of high temp pads though. I still don't understand why BMW decided to give the M3 nice cross drilled discs but tiny sliding caliper brakes.
I ran 328mm Brembos on a VW Corrado VR6 for ten years and never had any issues with them. After 6 months I even started to lose the fear of other cars going into the back of me.
When the Corrado was built it was not that common for performance cars to have the brakes they really should have. Nowadays even BMW fit monster stoppers to the M3 (look at the brakes on an E36 or E46 M3 by comparison) but so it's not an issue now.
But with an older car, and if you can afford it, fit the biggest brakes you can. It's better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it I say...
p.s. I would also completely recommend the Ferodo DS2500s for track and road use. Brilliant material.
When the Corrado was built it was not that common for performance cars to have the brakes they really should have. Nowadays even BMW fit monster stoppers to the M3 (look at the brakes on an E36 or E46 M3 by comparison) but so it's not an issue now.
But with an older car, and if you can afford it, fit the biggest brakes you can. It's better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it I say...
p.s. I would also completely recommend the Ferodo DS2500s for track and road use. Brilliant material.
Edited by corozin on Thursday 3rd July 21:46
crazy about cars said:
What an interesting thread. I've preferred piston brakes over siding calipers for performance and looks. Brakes on my previous R35 GTR was amazing.
Not too sure about current brakes on E92 M3...just doesn't inspire confidence. Perhaps I'll try an upgraded brake pad to see if it helps.
From my all too brief experience of driving a GTR I'd say there aren't many cars that feel better on the brakes than them. The stopping power is immense. Not too sure about current brakes on E92 M3...just doesn't inspire confidence. Perhaps I'll try an upgraded brake pad to see if it helps.
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