Mercedes ML borkability.../?
Discussion
Mercedes MLs...
Always slipped underneath my radar, I just considered them "soft roaders" and now I'm looking for something big and leathery but 4x4 (to pull stuff about) I was going to jump straight into a Jeep Grand Cherokee.
But...
Are the MLs worth a look or are they rusty and rubbish?
Looking at the £1500 - £2500 end of the market for a workhorse.
Not so sure, there are issues with the ML like all cars, but if those are sorted they are pretty bullet proof.
I post the following in another thread a few months back, and I am still in the ML as it is just going so well.
The ML is brilliant imho. Seriously under rated.
I had one back in 2003 and found it too soft and wallowy, but I had come from BMWs.
I bought another one 18 months ago off a forum member after selling my new E350cdi Estate that I hated, I needed something quickly at a price I could sell on without loosing loads while I decided what to get next.
A I said, that was over 18 months ago and I am still in it now.
I looked at a couple locally and they were shagged, although advertised as 'perfect'!
Mine is a 270cdi, it is just about quick enough.
Make sure you go for a past facelift car, so MY02 build, the quality difference is massive.
But be aware of certain things that can and do go wrong with them.
EGR gets bunged up - You can clean this easy enough and then bypass it. Worth doing.
Cats get bunged up - You can gut them and it still passes the emissions tests with flying colours and you see a good 2mpg increase.
Swirl Flaps - Like many others these are plastic and can break, but on the ML they tend to were on the spindle they are on and then leak oil, this drips onto the motor that controls them and causes it to go into limp mode.
The best thing to do is take the manifold off and blank the flaps off. Cheap fix but takes hours as everything has to come off.
It took us 12 hours in a garage with all the tools and a ramp.
Thermostat - These go every 40k miles or so, it should hit 84ºc after 5 minutes or so and stay there no matter what, if it doesn't you need a new one. £39 from Mercedes or ECP and ECP will give you the later 87ºc one.
When they go the car uses more fuel.
Transmission - It should be smooth, not the quickest of changes but smooth. Budget for a transmission fluid change, these were classed as sealed for life but that is crap.
They are not easy to do as there is no drain on the torque convertor, so you have to empty that and then pull the pipe that goes through the cooler to drain the TC.
You will get 3-4 litres from the gearbox and another 4-5 from the TC.
You then have to fill it perfectly, it has to be 80ºc when you measure and you have to get it within 1/4 of a litre otherwise you get issues.
And use the proper Merc dipstick, the cheap eBay ones do not work.
Electronic Plate - This is in the gearbox, above the valve body and controls things, it has speed sensors on it and can fail.
You can tell when it goes as when you boot it after a long drive taking it steady it goes into limp mode and holds the gear you are in. Restarting the car clears it and it can be fine for another 6 months.
But worth knowing about.
Front shocks go quite quickly on these, around 40k miles or so, I put Bilsteins on mine when I got it and although much better they are a bit too harsh. I am going to put some KYB on tomorrow and see what they are like, these were used as OEM on some models like the Inspiration and owners rave about them, so we shall see.
Rust - These are Mercs and in the age range where it can be a real problem.
Most seem to have some under the rear numberplate so don't worry too much about that, but of it has any one the arches etc. walk away, it was start to spread like wildfire.
Tyres - When changing go from the standard 255.60.17 go to 235.65.17 and a more on road tyre like the Michelin Latitude Tour HP, this improves the ride, handling and sees another 2mpg.
I was getting 390-410 miles from mine when I got it, after doing all the above I am now seeing 500+, 516 on the last tank.
That lot may have put you off, but don't let it, my old man has a 2010 ML350 and imho the ML270 is the nicer car, it is far more comfy and feels like a 4x4 and not a jacked up over firm estate, the interior quality is far better on the W163, nice soft touch plastics everywhere and it is just far more relaxing to drive.
I obviously wish the 350 engine was in my 270, but I prefer the 270cdi overall.
This is mine, I added an Alpine W925r Double din nav unit to update the interior and some Morel speakers, sounds great and does everything, plus being alpine the build is spot on, the graphics are subtle and match the amber interior lighting perfectly and it has a light sensor so dims with the cabin as it gets lighter/darker.
Look at the history closely, what has been done recently is far more important than Merc stamps on these as he things that really need doing is not looked at by Mercedes anyway.
But great waft mobiles that can gobble whatever you throw in the back of them with ease.
I keep looking at 10 plate Range Rovers and Discos and have to decide whether I am going to have the ML350 as he is swapping next month, but I just can't see the point of selling this for maybe £4k and spending £30k on something. Not even sure if I would like the new one as much, something about it being older that makes me far less precious about it, which I love.
Where you located? If you need a hand looking at them just shout. Or if you want to drive mine to see what they should feel like also shout.
I post the following in another thread a few months back, and I am still in the ML as it is just going so well.
The ML is brilliant imho. Seriously under rated.
I had one back in 2003 and found it too soft and wallowy, but I had come from BMWs.
I bought another one 18 months ago off a forum member after selling my new E350cdi Estate that I hated, I needed something quickly at a price I could sell on without loosing loads while I decided what to get next.
A I said, that was over 18 months ago and I am still in it now.
I looked at a couple locally and they were shagged, although advertised as 'perfect'!
Mine is a 270cdi, it is just about quick enough.
Make sure you go for a past facelift car, so MY02 build, the quality difference is massive.
But be aware of certain things that can and do go wrong with them.
EGR gets bunged up - You can clean this easy enough and then bypass it. Worth doing.
Cats get bunged up - You can gut them and it still passes the emissions tests with flying colours and you see a good 2mpg increase.
Swirl Flaps - Like many others these are plastic and can break, but on the ML they tend to were on the spindle they are on and then leak oil, this drips onto the motor that controls them and causes it to go into limp mode.
The best thing to do is take the manifold off and blank the flaps off. Cheap fix but takes hours as everything has to come off.
It took us 12 hours in a garage with all the tools and a ramp.
Thermostat - These go every 40k miles or so, it should hit 84ºc after 5 minutes or so and stay there no matter what, if it doesn't you need a new one. £39 from Mercedes or ECP and ECP will give you the later 87ºc one.
When they go the car uses more fuel.
Transmission - It should be smooth, not the quickest of changes but smooth. Budget for a transmission fluid change, these were classed as sealed for life but that is crap.
They are not easy to do as there is no drain on the torque convertor, so you have to empty that and then pull the pipe that goes through the cooler to drain the TC.
You will get 3-4 litres from the gearbox and another 4-5 from the TC.
You then have to fill it perfectly, it has to be 80ºc when you measure and you have to get it within 1/4 of a litre otherwise you get issues.
And use the proper Merc dipstick, the cheap eBay ones do not work.
Electronic Plate - This is in the gearbox, above the valve body and controls things, it has speed sensors on it and can fail.
You can tell when it goes as when you boot it after a long drive taking it steady it goes into limp mode and holds the gear you are in. Restarting the car clears it and it can be fine for another 6 months.
But worth knowing about.
Front shocks go quite quickly on these, around 40k miles or so, I put Bilsteins on mine when I got it and although much better they are a bit too harsh. I am going to put some KYB on tomorrow and see what they are like, these were used as OEM on some models like the Inspiration and owners rave about them, so we shall see.
Rust - These are Mercs and in the age range where it can be a real problem.
Most seem to have some under the rear numberplate so don't worry too much about that, but of it has any one the arches etc. walk away, it was start to spread like wildfire.
Tyres - When changing go from the standard 255.60.17 go to 235.65.17 and a more on road tyre like the Michelin Latitude Tour HP, this improves the ride, handling and sees another 2mpg.
I was getting 390-410 miles from mine when I got it, after doing all the above I am now seeing 500+, 516 on the last tank.
That lot may have put you off, but don't let it, my old man has a 2010 ML350 and imho the ML270 is the nicer car, it is far more comfy and feels like a 4x4 and not a jacked up over firm estate, the interior quality is far better on the W163, nice soft touch plastics everywhere and it is just far more relaxing to drive.
I obviously wish the 350 engine was in my 270, but I prefer the 270cdi overall.
This is mine, I added an Alpine W925r Double din nav unit to update the interior and some Morel speakers, sounds great and does everything, plus being alpine the build is spot on, the graphics are subtle and match the amber interior lighting perfectly and it has a light sensor so dims with the cabin as it gets lighter/darker.
Look at the history closely, what has been done recently is far more important than Merc stamps on these as he things that really need doing is not looked at by Mercedes anyway.
But great waft mobiles that can gobble whatever you throw in the back of them with ease.
I keep looking at 10 plate Range Rovers and Discos and have to decide whether I am going to have the ML350 as he is swapping next month, but I just can't see the point of selling this for maybe £4k and spending £30k on something. Not even sure if I would like the new one as much, something about it being older that makes me far less precious about it, which I love.
Where you located? If you need a hand looking at them just shout. Or if you want to drive mine to see what they should feel like also shout.
Built in the US and not very well put together on all accounts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8C9DJAsGPYM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8C9DJAsGPYM
The early ones weren't meant to be great, but I had an 03 plate new and it was really solid, and again bought the one above as I had sold my 2010 E350 estate and it is very well put together, certainly not at good previous Mercs like the W124 and W140, but better than the current models imho, certainly the interior materials, makes the current ones feel very low rent.
The problem was this was one of the first cars that marked a move for Mercedes into mass production, and the reviews always compared it to the SL, S Class and the W124 E Class, when the new W203 C Class and W210 E Class came out just after the ML they got a bashing too, but looking back I think they have faired well.
The problem was this was one of the first cars that marked a move for Mercedes into mass production, and the reviews always compared it to the SL, S Class and the W124 E Class, when the new W203 C Class and W210 E Class came out just after the ML they got a bashing too, but looking back I think they have faired well.
Grandfondo said:
I had the Inspiration 270cdi model from new for 6 years and it never missed a beat and was a lovely place to be with it's AMG buffalo leather interior,
The newer model with it's pleather just puts me right off!
My old man has an ML350 and I use that a lot at work as my wife tends to take the ML instead of her Z a lot, and the newer W164 is no where near as luxurious. The materials are a real step back again. The newer model with it's pleather just puts me right off!
the new W166 seems to have sorted it on many levels, but not altogether imho, and no way would I buy one of those over a RR or Disco even.
I had the Inspiration too back in 2003, I read the reviews and never got why they were knocked back, I had come from 2 E39s on the trot and it was better built than that, but not as solid as the W140 S320 my old man had beforehand. The W124 E320 he had before that was also class leader for build, but I think that was based on other cars in the late 80's up till the mid 90's, and that is what I think the reviews were comparing it with, the previous Mercs were so far ahead of the competition for build, and that was no longer the case the next generation, and the ML was one of the first of that generation.
gizlaroc said:
Grandfondo said:
I had the Inspiration 270cdi model from new for 6 years and it never missed a beat and was a lovely place to be with it's AMG buffalo leather interior,
The newer model with it's pleather just puts me right off!
My old man has an ML350 and I use that a lot at work as my wife tends to take the ML instead of her Z a lot, and the newer W164 is no where near as luxurious. The materials are a real step back again. The newer model with it's pleather just puts me right off!
the new W166 seems to have sorted it on many levels, but not altogether imho, and no way would I buy one of those over a RR or Disco even.
I had the Inspiration too back in 2003, I read the reviews and never got why they were knocked back, I had come from 2 E39s on the trot and it was better built than that, but not as solid as the W140 S320 my old man had beforehand. The W124 E320 he had before that was also class leader for build, but I think that was based on other cars in the late 80's up till the mid 90's, and that is what I think the reviews were comparing it with, the previous Mercs were so far ahead of the competition for build, and that was no longer the case the next generation, and the ML was one of the first of that generation.
RRS is on my radar at the moment to replace our Audi Q5 which replaced or ML.
How have you found the Q5?
I am really struggling to find something to replace the ML with.
New RRS is too expensive, for me anyway, so it has come down to an older model 8 speed TDV8 RRS or more likely FFRR.
But then think maybe I should be more sensible and consider a Q5, new or nearly new with no warranty worries, but just not sure if it would feel 'luxurious' enough?
I have been so disappointed with all my Audis, however, I did have a 3.2fsi A6 Quattro Avant that was good, mainly as I wasn't expecting much, and it did what I needed it to do, so thinking a Q5 might be similar.
I am really struggling to find something to replace the ML with.
New RRS is too expensive, for me anyway, so it has come down to an older model 8 speed TDV8 RRS or more likely FFRR.
But then think maybe I should be more sensible and consider a Q5, new or nearly new with no warranty worries, but just not sure if it would feel 'luxurious' enough?
I have been so disappointed with all my Audis, however, I did have a 3.2fsi A6 Quattro Avant that was good, mainly as I wasn't expecting much, and it did what I needed it to do, so thinking a Q5 might be similar.
My father in law had a MY02 ML270 CDI from new, sold it earlier this year with 190k on it.
Rock solid car until the last couple of years, when most of the issues gizlaroc has mentioned occurred!
The car was a nice place to be, seats (black leather) were fantastic and the heated front seats were amazing in the winter.
This was an unusual ML in that it was a manual, apparently the salesman had never sold a manual ML when it was ordered.
Rust was a big problem, tailgate, all 4 wheel arches and the spare wheel retainer were all shot, and the lacquer was peeling on the rear pillars.
Interior was rock solid, no squeaks or rattles, the only fault was the CD player wouldn't play CDs anymore but that's easily replaced.
Rock solid car until the last couple of years, when most of the issues gizlaroc has mentioned occurred!
The car was a nice place to be, seats (black leather) were fantastic and the heated front seats were amazing in the winter.
This was an unusual ML in that it was a manual, apparently the salesman had never sold a manual ML when it was ordered.
Rust was a big problem, tailgate, all 4 wheel arches and the spare wheel retainer were all shot, and the lacquer was peeling on the rear pillars.
Interior was rock solid, no squeaks or rattles, the only fault was the CD player wouldn't play CDs anymore but that's easily replaced.
gizlaroc said:
How have you found the Q5?
I am really struggling to find something to replace the ML with.
New RRS is too expensive, for me anyway, so it has come down to an older model 8 speed TDV8 RRS or more likely FFRR.
But then think maybe I should be more sensible and consider a Q5, new or nearly new with no warranty worries, but just not sure if it would feel 'luxurious' enough?
I have been so disappointed with all my Audis, however, I did have a 3.2fsi A6 Quattro Avant that was good, mainly as I wasn't expecting much, and it did what I needed it to do, so thinking a Q5 might be similar.
The Q5 is more car like to drive but feels very solidly built and is a very nice place to sit with the panoramic roof on ours which makes it feel quite airy.The DSG gearbox makes it very smooth and mated to the 2.0tdi is quick enough and returns mid 30s mpg.They also retain a lot of their value,our is still worth 50% after 5.5 years trade price!I am really struggling to find something to replace the ML with.
New RRS is too expensive, for me anyway, so it has come down to an older model 8 speed TDV8 RRS or more likely FFRR.
But then think maybe I should be more sensible and consider a Q5, new or nearly new with no warranty worries, but just not sure if it would feel 'luxurious' enough?
I have been so disappointed with all my Audis, however, I did have a 3.2fsi A6 Quattro Avant that was good, mainly as I wasn't expecting much, and it did what I needed it to do, so thinking a Q5 might be similar.
This generation of ML was THE most unreliable car in the JD power survey for 5 consecutive years. That should say enough.
Personal experience working in a Mercedes dealership until becoming one of 6 Brabus technicians in the UK I saw many of them broken down. Usually a trivial electrical gremlin although that usually necessitated an expensive control module replacement. They are littered with many modules, at this time they were all made by a Brazilian manufacturer, brazil being the home of electrical circuit board manufacture, or close enough to the US to be cheap.
Go on the forums, enter with your eyes open and you MAY be lucky.
I'd rather buy a Range Rover P38 and they really are unreliable!
Personal experience working in a Mercedes dealership until becoming one of 6 Brabus technicians in the UK I saw many of them broken down. Usually a trivial electrical gremlin although that usually necessitated an expensive control module replacement. They are littered with many modules, at this time they were all made by a Brazilian manufacturer, brazil being the home of electrical circuit board manufacture, or close enough to the US to be cheap.
Go on the forums, enter with your eyes open and you MAY be lucky.
I'd rather buy a Range Rover P38 and they really are unreliable!
JSquaredJim said:
This generation of ML was THE most unreliable car in the JD power survey for 5 consecutive years. That should say enough.
Personal experience working in a Mercedes dealership until becoming one of 6 Brabus technicians in the UK I saw many of them broken down. Usually a trivial electrical gremlin although that usually necessitated an expensive control module replacement. They are littered with many modules, at this time they were all made by a Brazilian manufacturer, brazil being the home of electrical circuit board manufacture, or close enough to the US to be cheap.
Go on the forums, enter with your eyes open and you MAY be lucky.
I'd rather buy a Range Rover P38 and they really are unreliable!
Early 98 and 99 models had electronics made in brazil, 2000 saw them changed and 2002 model then they got a major overhaul and are considered quite good. Personal experience working in a Mercedes dealership until becoming one of 6 Brabus technicians in the UK I saw many of them broken down. Usually a trivial electrical gremlin although that usually necessitated an expensive control module replacement. They are littered with many modules, at this time they were all made by a Brazilian manufacturer, brazil being the home of electrical circuit board manufacture, or close enough to the US to be cheap.
Go on the forums, enter with your eyes open and you MAY be lucky.
I'd rather buy a Range Rover P38 and they really are unreliable!
Heard horror stories on early cars, but know loads of people with MY02 cars that have had hardly any problems at all.
AndrewCrown said:
Later model ML's 2005-2011 Sublime..
No it's not. It is no where near as nice a place to be as the earlier facelift one imho.
The ride is over damped, the interior plastics are more Korean than German, and it feels like a real step down quality wise imho.
I have both sat here and unless the earlier one is blocked in I always grab the keys for it first.
The later 350cdi engine is nice though, but the cabin noise on the later ML is terrible, almost as if there was not enough sound deadening in the firewall/behind the dash.
The throttle response on the W164 is also a bit weird, very hard not to take off like a scalded cat and then a bit mushy after that.
Don't get me wrong, not a bad car at all, but I honestly don't think it is as good an all round 4x4 package as the earlier W163 model.
I would own one, but I wouldn't get over excited about swapping to one if that makes sense.
It's a good car, just let down as it was Mercedes low point for interior materials when it came out.
Just look at the early W204 C-Class and the A Class and the early W212 E Class, same thing there, but I guess it depends what you have come from?
gizlaroc said:
It's a good car, just let down as it was Mercedes low point for interior materials when it came out.
Just look at the early W204 C-Class and the A Class and the early W212 E Class, same thing there, but I guess it depends what you have come from?
Having owned W203 and W204 C-Classes and W211 and W212 E-Classes I have to agree, I think the interiors in the earlier models were designed and built in a 'sweet spot' for Mercedes, and don't like the interiors in the latest cars at all. Probably why after 5 Mercs on the trot I no longer have the desire to own a new one, they seem to have swapped quality for shiny trinketry and dash mounted ipads.Just look at the early W204 C-Class and the A Class and the early W212 E Class, same thing there, but I guess it depends what you have come from?
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