Tyres - a convert from 'Premium Brands' despite the hype....
Discussion
Over the years, I have used a variety of different tyres, on a variety of different cars.
Most have been what I might describe as 'acceptable' - for example, I reckon that if you don't think about your tyres at some point when you are driving your car, then I guess that they are doing their job to a standard that might be described as meeting or surpassing expectations at least, no?
I have a few exceptions though off the top of my head:
In 1998, a set of Kumho Ecsta's on a Peugeout 205 GTI, did not inspire any confidence, anywhere - wet or dry.
In 2004 a set of Pirelli P600's on an older Rover 214 GSi nearly killed me on far too many occasions.
In 2005, a set of Toyo T1's on a Volvo S40 T4 were horrible - the sidewall was so squishy, the car didn't handle to my liking until I settled upon an all-round tyre pressure of 45 psi.
In 2005, a set of Pirelli Pzero rosso's on a Mercedes SL500 were rubbish in every way - noisy, slidy, and with horrendous wear.
In 2007, another set of Pirelli Pzero's on a Porsche 911 were similarly bad.
The story picks up at the Porsche in 2007. I visited a friend at a tyre depot, and he said that I had been wasting my time over the years with anything that wasn't a Michelin. In his opinion, Michelins were ALWAYS the way to go. He talked me into having a set of Pilot Sport 3's fitted to my Porsche 911.
I must say, yes, they seemed to be good. But that was at first. Over the life of the tyres, I became a wee bit less enchanted with them - but I gave them the benefit of the doubt, and had another set fitted - but after the first set had worn out at what I felt was a rather disappointingly short period of time / mileage, considering their cost.
At the same time, I also had a sporty VAG as my daily drive, which I still own. I also had a set of PS3's fitted to this. They behaved in a very similar manner to the ones on the 911 - ok at first, but dropping off a bit and wearing out way more quickly than I would have hoped, given the initial cost. Again, though, I have had two sets of the PS3's fitted to this car.
A year or two ago, I became a student, and hence as money suddenly got tight, the 911 had to go. I kept my trusty old VAG though - but last month, the Michelins on that had got to a level that required replacement.
On my new tight budget, I realised that Michelins were out of the question. After a lot of surfing round the web, I found Falken ZE914's - they seemed to be a good alternative, with a really attractive saving (£60 a tyre as opposed to £110 a tyre for the Michelins...)
Anyway, the point of the thread is that - after a month of driving, the 'nearly-half-price to the Michelin' Falkens, are performing in a way that makes the Michelins look like Chinese Linglongs.
First impression - they definitely have stiffer sidewalls, which give the car a firmer, more 'dialled-in' feeling. The ride isn't what I would call uncomfortably harsher as such - it's just far more 'detailed' when it comes to the feedback I am getting from the road surface. As I said before, I hate squishy tyres, and I used to run the PS3's at 35 psi all round. These Falkens at 30psi give about 100% more feel than the Michelins ever did, without feeling any more harsh.
Road noise - they are quieter than the Michelins. Not by a massive amount, but enough to be noticeable at motorway kind of speeds - far less intrusive in the cabin when I am listening to my 'ICE' - bruv, innit.
Grip - wet and dry grip seems to be at least equal to the Michelins. Driving at a sporty pace around and across my local curves and roundabouts - I have a similar level of grip.
Traction - my car is a re-mapped turbo, and hence the boost can come in quite quickly in 1st. gear, when pulling away. The Falkens hook up across a variety of road surfaces, with the same level of traction to the Michelins. Crappy tyres are always shown up at this point - ditchfinders just sit there spinning away with no real purchase.
Handling, turn-in and confidence - ahhh, now this is where the Falkens really show up the Michelins for the expensive folly that they were in the end!
More importantly, when driving in a 'sporty' manner, and pressing on a bit - especially in a 'modernish' car, with a 'modernish' lack of feedback through the steering wheel (due to over-assisted power steering) with 'feel' all but dialled out by the manufacturers - any tyre these days, which can provide a modicum of steering feedback, is worth it's weight in gold.
And these Falkens - well, all I can say is that it feels like I have a totally new steering setup - almost like a different power steering rack, linkages, arms, suspension etc. etc. - the difference in steering feel is basically like night and day?
So - I am obviously a convert - but this is a big, surprising change - from a product that was nearly half the price from my previous choice.
Ok, I don't know how long these tyres will actually last compared to the Michelins - they might well be dead in like half the time, who knows? But I will report back on that in due course. However, I must say that even if they don't last as long - I am totally converted to using these now, as they make my car feel SOOO much better to drive.
Has anyone else gone backwards on tyre prices, but been similarly surprised and delighted with the result???
Most have been what I might describe as 'acceptable' - for example, I reckon that if you don't think about your tyres at some point when you are driving your car, then I guess that they are doing their job to a standard that might be described as meeting or surpassing expectations at least, no?
I have a few exceptions though off the top of my head:
In 1998, a set of Kumho Ecsta's on a Peugeout 205 GTI, did not inspire any confidence, anywhere - wet or dry.
In 2004 a set of Pirelli P600's on an older Rover 214 GSi nearly killed me on far too many occasions.
In 2005, a set of Toyo T1's on a Volvo S40 T4 were horrible - the sidewall was so squishy, the car didn't handle to my liking until I settled upon an all-round tyre pressure of 45 psi.
In 2005, a set of Pirelli Pzero rosso's on a Mercedes SL500 were rubbish in every way - noisy, slidy, and with horrendous wear.
In 2007, another set of Pirelli Pzero's on a Porsche 911 were similarly bad.
The story picks up at the Porsche in 2007. I visited a friend at a tyre depot, and he said that I had been wasting my time over the years with anything that wasn't a Michelin. In his opinion, Michelins were ALWAYS the way to go. He talked me into having a set of Pilot Sport 3's fitted to my Porsche 911.
I must say, yes, they seemed to be good. But that was at first. Over the life of the tyres, I became a wee bit less enchanted with them - but I gave them the benefit of the doubt, and had another set fitted - but after the first set had worn out at what I felt was a rather disappointingly short period of time / mileage, considering their cost.
At the same time, I also had a sporty VAG as my daily drive, which I still own. I also had a set of PS3's fitted to this. They behaved in a very similar manner to the ones on the 911 - ok at first, but dropping off a bit and wearing out way more quickly than I would have hoped, given the initial cost. Again, though, I have had two sets of the PS3's fitted to this car.
A year or two ago, I became a student, and hence as money suddenly got tight, the 911 had to go. I kept my trusty old VAG though - but last month, the Michelins on that had got to a level that required replacement.
On my new tight budget, I realised that Michelins were out of the question. After a lot of surfing round the web, I found Falken ZE914's - they seemed to be a good alternative, with a really attractive saving (£60 a tyre as opposed to £110 a tyre for the Michelins...)
Anyway, the point of the thread is that - after a month of driving, the 'nearly-half-price to the Michelin' Falkens, are performing in a way that makes the Michelins look like Chinese Linglongs.
First impression - they definitely have stiffer sidewalls, which give the car a firmer, more 'dialled-in' feeling. The ride isn't what I would call uncomfortably harsher as such - it's just far more 'detailed' when it comes to the feedback I am getting from the road surface. As I said before, I hate squishy tyres, and I used to run the PS3's at 35 psi all round. These Falkens at 30psi give about 100% more feel than the Michelins ever did, without feeling any more harsh.
Road noise - they are quieter than the Michelins. Not by a massive amount, but enough to be noticeable at motorway kind of speeds - far less intrusive in the cabin when I am listening to my 'ICE' - bruv, innit.
Grip - wet and dry grip seems to be at least equal to the Michelins. Driving at a sporty pace around and across my local curves and roundabouts - I have a similar level of grip.
Traction - my car is a re-mapped turbo, and hence the boost can come in quite quickly in 1st. gear, when pulling away. The Falkens hook up across a variety of road surfaces, with the same level of traction to the Michelins. Crappy tyres are always shown up at this point - ditchfinders just sit there spinning away with no real purchase.
Handling, turn-in and confidence - ahhh, now this is where the Falkens really show up the Michelins for the expensive folly that they were in the end!
More importantly, when driving in a 'sporty' manner, and pressing on a bit - especially in a 'modernish' car, with a 'modernish' lack of feedback through the steering wheel (due to over-assisted power steering) with 'feel' all but dialled out by the manufacturers - any tyre these days, which can provide a modicum of steering feedback, is worth it's weight in gold.
And these Falkens - well, all I can say is that it feels like I have a totally new steering setup - almost like a different power steering rack, linkages, arms, suspension etc. etc. - the difference in steering feel is basically like night and day?
So - I am obviously a convert - but this is a big, surprising change - from a product that was nearly half the price from my previous choice.
Ok, I don't know how long these tyres will actually last compared to the Michelins - they might well be dead in like half the time, who knows? But I will report back on that in due course. However, I must say that even if they don't last as long - I am totally converted to using these now, as they make my car feel SOOO much better to drive.
Has anyone else gone backwards on tyre prices, but been similarly surprised and delighted with the result???
The PH masses insistence on the highest priced tyres has always amused me. The only tyres I've ever bought and regretted were some pirellis I had fitted to one of my old jags, they just didn't have the same wet grip as the previous tyres had had, so I've steered clear of Pirelli ever since.
My usual mode of purchasing tyres has been to take a reasonable middle ground of price and brand and for most of the Jags I've had over the years this usually meant Dunlops and I never had any issues with them. For my other cars I'd always buy an upper medium range brand.
I'm firmly of the belief that 90% of people do not 'need' the best, most expensive, most grippy tyres as 90% of people don't drive their cars at the limit.
For my Boxster though I've fitted Michelins all round. When I bought it it had some horrible cheap tyres on (Accelerators or something like that). They made the most incredible whirring noise between 35 and 55mph (I wondered a diff might be on it's way out) and when sitting at any speed above 70mph it felt like the steering wheel was squirming. The effects were sooo pronounced I didn't actually believe that it could only be tyres, but when I had the fronts replaced it absolutely tranformed the car, the noise stopped and the car tracks perfectly at any speeds now.
So I'm not sure buying the cheapest economy tyres is a good idea unless being fitted to town cars and station hacks, but medium to premium seems to have worked ok for me.
For the RR, I've already decided I'll be going for Texens, the Vredsteins on it have been very, very good, but I'm not paying over £250 a wheel to replace when the Texens are available for about half that and have had some good write ups and reviews.
My usual mode of purchasing tyres has been to take a reasonable middle ground of price and brand and for most of the Jags I've had over the years this usually meant Dunlops and I never had any issues with them. For my other cars I'd always buy an upper medium range brand.
I'm firmly of the belief that 90% of people do not 'need' the best, most expensive, most grippy tyres as 90% of people don't drive their cars at the limit.
For my Boxster though I've fitted Michelins all round. When I bought it it had some horrible cheap tyres on (Accelerators or something like that). They made the most incredible whirring noise between 35 and 55mph (I wondered a diff might be on it's way out) and when sitting at any speed above 70mph it felt like the steering wheel was squirming. The effects were sooo pronounced I didn't actually believe that it could only be tyres, but when I had the fronts replaced it absolutely tranformed the car, the noise stopped and the car tracks perfectly at any speeds now.
So I'm not sure buying the cheapest economy tyres is a good idea unless being fitted to town cars and station hacks, but medium to premium seems to have worked ok for me.
For the RR, I've already decided I'll be going for Texens, the Vredsteins on it have been very, very good, but I'm not paying over £250 a wheel to replace when the Texens are available for about half that and have had some good write ups and reviews.
I am in the process of upgrading the tyres on my other half's car, which was purchased (used) with 3 cheap but almost new Chinese tyres and a nearly worn out Kumho. We changed the Kumho almost immediately and I decided a mid-range tyre would suffice and bought a Toyo.
But the (power) steering has always felt heavy, lifeless and uninspiring, to the point where it sometimes feels like it won't go round a bend. So I'm taking the plunge and ditching the Chinese ones even though they're not worn out. Again we're going mid range, like Toyo and Avon.
When I've driven it on a comparable journey I'll report back.
On my own car I had a puncture in the Pirelli a few weeks back so pulled the old Barum out of the boot for 3 days - and I noticed the difference, I couldn't wait to get the Pirelli back.
But the (power) steering has always felt heavy, lifeless and uninspiring, to the point where it sometimes feels like it won't go round a bend. So I'm taking the plunge and ditching the Chinese ones even though they're not worn out. Again we're going mid range, like Toyo and Avon.
When I've driven it on a comparable journey I'll report back.
On my own car I had a puncture in the Pirelli a few weeks back so pulled the old Barum out of the boot for 3 days - and I noticed the difference, I couldn't wait to get the Pirelli back.
Piersman2 said:
For my Boxster though I've fitted Michelins all round. When I bought it it had some horrible cheap tyres on (Accelerators or something like that). They made the most incredible whirring noise between 35 and 55mph (I wondered a diff might be on it's way out) and when sitting at any speed above 70mph it felt like the steering wheel was squirming..
Piers, Maybe you mean Aderenza, made by Fullrun, and yes they are in the Economy level, even below the "Budget" level we are always being offered as alternatives when the major brands "aren't available".M4cruiser said:
Piersman2 said:
For my Boxster though I've fitted Michelins all round. When I bought it it had some horrible cheap tyres on (Accelerators or something like that). They made the most incredible whirring noise between 35 and 55mph (I wondered a diff might be on it's way out) and when sitting at any speed above 70mph it felt like the steering wheel was squirming..
Piers, Maybe you mean Aderenza, made by Fullrun, and yes they are in the Economy level, even below the "Budget" level we are always being offered as alternatives when the major brands "aren't available".Tyres DO make a huge difference and certain tyres suit certain cars - the problem is finding reliable data, owners forums aren't that useful as most drive like Miss Daisy.
Cheaper tyres (with decent grip) do tend to wear out quicker than premium rivals.
I really like Kumho KU31 on my VW, Toyo T1R on my MX5 and am disappointed with Conti Sports on my Forester XT
Cheaper tyres (with decent grip) do tend to wear out quicker than premium rivals.
I really like Kumho KU31 on my VW, Toyo T1R on my MX5 and am disappointed with Conti Sports on my Forester XT
The other problems are that:
- perception of brand quality is usually directly linked to how much the tyre company spend on advertising
- generally, people replacing old tyres with new tyres always think their new tyres are much better (which of course they should be), so making an objective opinion is hard for most people
For my last set of tyres I looked into the DEX ratings for wet grip , but generally by shopping around on line and booking in advance I could afford way better tyres than if I'd just turned up at a tyre shop / dealer and paid their over the counter rates.
Ian
- perception of brand quality is usually directly linked to how much the tyre company spend on advertising
- generally, people replacing old tyres with new tyres always think their new tyres are much better (which of course they should be), so making an objective opinion is hard for most people
For my last set of tyres I looked into the DEX ratings for wet grip , but generally by shopping around on line and booking in advance I could afford way better tyres than if I'd just turned up at a tyre shop / dealer and paid their over the counter rates.
Ian
I think its dependent on the car. My Impreza originally had Bridgestone RE070's which were very good, but I found the sidewalls made the ride a bit harsh. I replaced them with Pirelli's and they lasted about 1000 miles before I took them off, they inspired no confidence at all. In the end, I settled on Vredestein Sessanta's as a good midrange tyre and the car was back to how it behaved with the Bridgestone's but with a better ride.
My wife and I both now have Golf GTi's and both run Continental Contact Sport 5's and we haven't found a better tyre yet that we like. On the negative side, I recommended them for my sister in law's Audi A4 and having experienced them on it, I don't think I'd ever recommend them again (but that could be her driving, or the general crapness of the A4).
My wife and I both now have Golf GTi's and both run Continental Contact Sport 5's and we haven't found a better tyre yet that we like. On the negative side, I recommended them for my sister in law's Audi A4 and having experienced them on it, I don't think I'd ever recommend them again (but that could be her driving, or the general crapness of the A4).
AClownsPocket said:
I think its dependent on the car.
So surprising how much people, including PHers, overlook this. I swiftly replaced P6000s on my Imprezas for some RE050s (can't remember the number). They were terrible and got binned for some Toyo Proxes, which were fantastic.When I bought my VX220 Turbo I replaced the mismatched rear tyres with RE050s. They were fantastic on the car. Similarly, the Proxes that my Evo came with were surprisingly underwhelming. I hated the Evo and stuck some Avon ZZ-somethings on them and I did notice the handling improved a bit.
Renovation said:
Tyres DO make a huge difference and certain tyres suit certain cars - the problem is finding reliable data, owners forums aren't that useful as most drive like Miss Daisy.
Quite. Very few people are interested enough in the actual driving and testing out the nuances of their tyres on interesting roads...and people often just rate highly whatever they have paid for.I'd go for decent wet and dry grip over long life.
I personally rate Uniroyals, and have them fitted to both of or cars, having tried various mid and premium tyres in the past.
-Toyo tyres I used seemed to suffer sidewall damage far too easily, although grip was quite good.
Although some people like very stiff sidewalls, Overall I prefer progressive grip and compliance for a normal road car used 'enthusiastically' on all kinds of roads in all weathers.
Sump said:
I didn't like my 452s and preferred the Sessantas over it.
Then I want to Goodyear F1s and they were even better. Different tyres suit different cars, that's for sure though..
I had Asymmetric 2's on my M5 and have replaced with them Vred Sessanta's. I prefer the Goodyears, and when the rears wear out again I'll be going back to them, the car just seems to prefer them.Then I want to Goodyear F1s and they were even better. Different tyres suit different cars, that's for sure though..
Piersman there, falling into the usual trap of assuming that the driver always gets to choose how close to the limit he drives. In an emergency stop situation, you're at 10/10ths. In a debris-on-the-unlit-motorway situation, you're at 10/10ths. In the oh-s
t-an-elk situation, you're at 10/10ths. It's in these situation you'll regret your Linglongs. Popping to the shops could be done without tyres. Just the same as it could be done drunk, or while on the phone, do doing a hooker. It's the 1/100,000 trips involving a freak occurrence that make the difference and it is then that you'll regret saving £40 over three years.
It's quite right to suggest that expensive =/= good, but better does = better.
Equate it to something else. A pair of shoes, perhaps. £4 "leather" shoes from TK Primax aren't the best shoes in the world, they're just not good enough. £8000 calfskin affairs from Liberty of London aren't either, because you're paying for the name. The best shoes are probably available from John Lewis for a couple of hundred quid, sensible shop, sensible price. Same thing with tyres. The gap between £200/corner Pirellis and £70/corner Falkens is probably virtually nil. The difference between the Falkens and the Wenbos is wider than yo momma's ass, fool! And that you will notice.
Buy the best tyres, people.
Simon.
t-an-elk situation, you're at 10/10ths. It's in these situation you'll regret your Linglongs. Popping to the shops could be done without tyres. Just the same as it could be done drunk, or while on the phone, do doing a hooker. It's the 1/100,000 trips involving a freak occurrence that make the difference and it is then that you'll regret saving £40 over three years.It's quite right to suggest that expensive =/= good, but better does = better.
Equate it to something else. A pair of shoes, perhaps. £4 "leather" shoes from TK Primax aren't the best shoes in the world, they're just not good enough. £8000 calfskin affairs from Liberty of London aren't either, because you're paying for the name. The best shoes are probably available from John Lewis for a couple of hundred quid, sensible shop, sensible price. Same thing with tyres. The gap between £200/corner Pirellis and £70/corner Falkens is probably virtually nil. The difference between the Falkens and the Wenbos is wider than yo momma's ass, fool! And that you will notice.
Buy the best tyres, people.
Simon.
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