10 speed DSG coming

[danp]

I assume one can change gear manually, isn't this quite a leap from the current 6 or 7?

How many gears could we end up with in a few years?

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1095409_vw-futu...

[xRIEx]

I thought 8 was fast becoming the norm, and don't Merc or Lexus or someone have a 9-speed variant? It's obviously going to progress in this same fashion as far as the can make the 'boxes light enough, strong enough and usable. The 'ideal' is a CVT so you can keep the engine at a particular point - e.g. most efficient or most power, whatever is required. More ratios gets closer and closer to that idea.

Even with paddles though I don't know that I could be bothered shifting gears manually with that many and it would be far suited to auto only (or block shift if using a manual mode, by the time they get up to 12 or so ratios). The next Fast & Furious movie would be interesting, it may even become plausible (or they install 35-speed gearboxes).

Edited by xRIEx on Wednesday 12th November 12:18

[soad]

Fuel consumption will improve?

Should see a 12-speed gearbox in a near future.

[Shaw Tarse]

soad said:

Fuel consumption will improve?

Should see a 12-speed gearbox someday.

On a mountain bike HGV or SUV?

[ecsrobin]

Surely it will help fuel economy? I'm all for it remember the jump from 4 to 5 then 5 to 6?

[soad]

Shaw Tarse said:

On a mountain bike HGV or SUV?

SUV.

[xRIEx]

I'm assuming these are just 9, 10, 12 discrete ratios. Is there any benefit (or too many disadvantages) to 'stacked' 'boxes - e.g. to gearboxes each with 3 ratios, arranged sequentially to give 9 different ratios (like an old overdrive unit)?

[danp]

Yep I'm sure it'll help economy (in the test mainly!)

What I was wondering is how people would use the box. I'd imagine the current 8/9 speed autos spend most of their lives in auto mode, would it be the same with this? Auto mode with the odd manual changes when on a hoon? If so what's the advantage over an auto? Slightly quicker gear changes?

[AlexS]

danp said:

I assume one can change gear manually, isn't this quite a leap from the current 6 or 7?

How many gears could we end up with in a few years?

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1095409_vw-futu...

ZF already provide torque converter autos with 8 speeds in rear drive applications and 9 for transverse front wheel drive.

[SnailTrail]

danp said:

Yep I'm sure it'll help economy (in the test mainly!)

What I was wondering is how people would use the box. I'd imagine the current 8/9 speed autos spend most of their lives in auto mode, would it be the same with this? Auto mode with the odd manual changes when on a hoon? If so what's the advantage over an auto? Slightly quicker gear changes?

Quicker gear changes than an auto, less energy lost in a DSG due to the lack of a torque converter, less energy lost inside the gearbox due to auto boxes being very different internally, preselection of gears allowing direct shift (although maybe you can do this on an auto).

All of this would add up to an overall more efficient gearbox, I'd imagine.

[Calza]

New merc's are rolling out with 9 speed auto's.

I wonder if it will help in real life as well as the tests? All for it if so!

[Willy Nilly]

There must be some rather inflexible engines engines in the pipeline that need so many gears. Car only do one job and that is a fairly simple one, you don't need 10 gears to drive down the road in a car.

[DrDeAtH]

soad said:

Should see a 12-speed gearbox in a near future.

They had them in The Fast and Furious films.....

[MoelyCrio]

Somebody will invent a gearbox with a continously variable number of gears soon I reckon.

[mini1380cc]

Willy Nilly said:

you don't need 10 gears to drive down the road in a car.

It might get that way if power bands keep narrowing.

[xRIEx]

MoelyCrio said:

Somebody will invent a gearbox with a continously variable number of gears soon I reckon.

That's an excellent idea! A transmission that is continuously variable! I suppose they'd initialise it as TtiCV.

[balls-out]

MoelyCrio said:

Somebody will invent a gearbox with a continously variable number of gears soon I reckon.

Cracking idea..
today I'd like to drive as though in a 50s cadilac - just the 3 gears will suffice....

[danp]

SnailTrail said:

Quicker gear changes than an auto, less energy lost in a DSG due to the lack of a torque converter, less energy lost inside the gearbox due to auto boxes being very different internally, preselection of gears allowing direct shift (although maybe you can do this on an auto).

All of this would add up to an overall more efficient gearbox, I'd imagine.

So why do they still make conventional autos? Cost and weight advantage perhaps?

[xRIEx]

danp said:

SnailTrail said:

Quicker gear changes than an auto, less energy lost in a DSG due to the lack of a torque converter, less energy lost inside the gearbox due to auto boxes being very different internally, preselection of gears allowing direct shift (although maybe you can do this on an auto).

All of this would add up to an overall more efficient gearbox, I'd imagine.

So why do they still make conventional autos? Cost and weight advantage perhaps?

Restrictive patents? (Adding to the cost.)

[DonkeyApple]

ecsrobin said:

Surely it will help fuel economy? I'm all for it remember the jump from 4 to 5 then 5 to 6?

Remember the jump from 80mph top speeds, to 100mph then 150mph?

The adding of gears up until this decade has while driven by superior economy also has been while operating speeds of cars have been increasing.

Arguably, for the last decade we have stopped increasing our typical open road cruise speed and our top speed performance in general. As such, all additional gears are going to be doing now is narrowing the ratios and resulting in engines with more efficient, narrower power bands. Ie like generators.

Even 6 speed units didn't really add that much. They allowed for a lower 1st for the SUV market or general performance launches and a longer final drive for cruising efficiencies but the ratios in between remained remarkably inline with a 5 speed.

The ZF8 speed is a revelation. It is clearly hugely beneficial to diesels where the power bands are generally narrow and in performance cars, now that auto changes are quicker than manual, it has significantly increased performance of some cars.

My continual question is that if operating speeds remain constant then adding ever more gears mend that engines will be built to operate in ever narrower power bands. Especially as this is more efficient.

But at what point will firms like Ferrari or Aston or any maker of cars that focus on driving passion and experience have to stick with a lower number of gears because climbing through a rev range and the wide aural spectrum that gives and the physical experience of climbing onto the cam is what actually adds much of that passion?

What sounds better, a good petrol engine inefficiently climbing up through a wide rev range or one sitting constantly at 2,500 rpm?

Somewhere there is the tipping point at which the number of gears destroys the driving experience. Personally, I think we are at this tipping point. I think there are already engines which sound better mated to a 6 speed than an 8 speed, even though they surrender performance and economy.

Legislation is going to force ever more gears but removing inefficiencies from the petrol engine is killing the character of the petrol engine and what makes it superior to a diesel.

And once a petrol engine has no character then you left with efficiency and the diesel will beat it and there will no longer be any reason to use a petrol engine!!!!!!!

Edited by DonkeyApple on Wednesday 12th November 13:58