Elise 111R - too fast for the road, too slow for the track?
Discussion
A deliberately controversial title, but please bear with me!
My current fun car is a Mk1 MR2, with decent suspension, sticky tyres and better brakes. It's a hoot on track, but with only around 100bhp and weighing approx 1000kg it is a little one dimensional. I really enjoy the high cornering speeds but the low power-to-weight ratio means you don't need to modulate the throttle much.
I really miss my old Fisher Fury, which was 180bhp in 550kg, a great track car with real punch out of the corners and hugely enjoyable trying to feed the power in without invoking oversteer. However, it had no windscreen or weather gear, so it spent 300 days a year in the garage - a large part of the reason for selling it. Road use was exciting, and the short gearing meant that you could enjoy wringing its neck without trampling all over the speed limit too often.
I'm planning a change, and have always loved the S2 Elise. On paper, the 111R looks like a great choice: screaming engine, decent power-to-weight, lighter than the MR2 for great handling, but with up-to-date corrosion protection and the option of a proper hardtop for wet-weather use. However, I'm concerned that it may end up in the middle ground - still not all that quick for a track car, but way too fast to enjoy on the road. (I don't want to end up like the bloke nicked in the middle of the night featured on the PH homepage!)
But then, realistically, is any remotely track-ready car enjoyable within touching distance of the legal limit these days? The 100bhp/ton MR2 will happily corner at 60 and head past 120 on any straights, while some of my favourite NSL roads have dropped to 50mph or 40mph limits for no apparent reason. Perhaps a three-cylinder Caterham on van tyres is the best answer, but I don't fancy dropping 20k on a "sports car" that is slower than a warmed-up Focus!
My current fun car is a Mk1 MR2, with decent suspension, sticky tyres and better brakes. It's a hoot on track, but with only around 100bhp and weighing approx 1000kg it is a little one dimensional. I really enjoy the high cornering speeds but the low power-to-weight ratio means you don't need to modulate the throttle much.
I really miss my old Fisher Fury, which was 180bhp in 550kg, a great track car with real punch out of the corners and hugely enjoyable trying to feed the power in without invoking oversteer. However, it had no windscreen or weather gear, so it spent 300 days a year in the garage - a large part of the reason for selling it. Road use was exciting, and the short gearing meant that you could enjoy wringing its neck without trampling all over the speed limit too often.
I'm planning a change, and have always loved the S2 Elise. On paper, the 111R looks like a great choice: screaming engine, decent power-to-weight, lighter than the MR2 for great handling, but with up-to-date corrosion protection and the option of a proper hardtop for wet-weather use. However, I'm concerned that it may end up in the middle ground - still not all that quick for a track car, but way too fast to enjoy on the road. (I don't want to end up like the bloke nicked in the middle of the night featured on the PH homepage!)
But then, realistically, is any remotely track-ready car enjoyable within touching distance of the legal limit these days? The 100bhp/ton MR2 will happily corner at 60 and head past 120 on any straights, while some of my favourite NSL roads have dropped to 50mph or 40mph limits for no apparent reason. Perhaps a three-cylinder Caterham on van tyres is the best answer, but I don't fancy dropping 20k on a "sports car" that is slower than a warmed-up Focus!
aww999 said:
but way too fast to enjoy on the road.
Do you mean way to capable? I.e. have to be going fast to enjoy it? That's true of any modern performance car to an extent although I think the Elise experience goes a long way to counter this.However, I'd get a VX220 Turbo instead.
aww999 said:
...way too fast to enjoy on the road.
I just came in from a B-road drive in my S1 Elise 160, which is about as quick as a 111R. It wasn't too fast. I've also spent some happy days in a S2 Elise SC, with 220ps, and that wasn't too fast either (although getting used to the rev limit took some time).My track car was a mk1 MX5 turbo - much slower than my Elise, but still hilarious on a track.
I had a 111R back in the day when they came out. They may be highly capable in the dry but they are pretty crap in the wet. Even the most mild hatch will leave an Elise behind in poor conditions. So it could be argued they are not too fast for the road.
I suggest you get an extended drive of one. The seats are extremely uncomfortable and non adjustable for periods over 30 minutes. The interior is full of rattles and extreme back ground noise. They will be utterly useless in the winter. Really, they are wonderful on a summer sunday blast for twenty minutes and that is it.
IMHO
I suggest you get an extended drive of one. The seats are extremely uncomfortable and non adjustable for periods over 30 minutes. The interior is full of rattles and extreme back ground noise. They will be utterly useless in the winter. Really, they are wonderful on a summer sunday blast for twenty minutes and that is it.
IMHO
I find the performance of my 111S (which is similar to the 111R) about right for the road. I wouldn't want much more but the way the performance tails off at higher speed as drag overcomes the relatively modest power output makes it surprisingly usable for its power-to-weight ratio.
Whether it's too slow for the track rather depends on the track. It'd probably feel rather gutless on anything with long straights. It does, in standard form, feel rather heavy and soft for track use.
They are utterly hopeless on standing water but once you get used to the handling they are highly capable in the damp because they have such an enormous amount of traction. AD07s don't like snow much (a fact which, combined with my own stupidity, cost my insurance company a chunk of money a few years ago) but other than that, I've used mine as a daily driver/commuter all year 'round for the last eight years without a problem. I can't see myself selling it until I'm too old to get in and out.
Whether it's too slow for the track rather depends on the track. It'd probably feel rather gutless on anything with long straights. It does, in standard form, feel rather heavy and soft for track use.
They are utterly hopeless on standing water but once you get used to the handling they are highly capable in the damp because they have such an enormous amount of traction. AD07s don't like snow much (a fact which, combined with my own stupidity, cost my insurance company a chunk of money a few years ago) but other than that, I've used mine as a daily driver/commuter all year 'round for the last eight years without a problem. I can't see myself selling it until I'm too old to get in and out.
Edited by kambites on Wednesday 3rd December 16:46
k-ink said:
I had a 111R back in the day when they came out. They may be highly capable in the dry but they are pretty crap in the wet. Even the most mild hatch will leave an Elise behind in poor conditions. So it could be argued they are not too fast for the road.
I suggest you get an extended drive of one. The seats are extremely uncomfortable and non adjustable for periods over 30 minutes. The interior is full of rattles and extreme back ground noise. They will be utterly useless in the winter. Really, they are wonderful on a summer sunday blast for twenty minutes and that is it.
IMHO
When it comes to speed in the wet, that comes down to balls and ability (and tyre choice).I suggest you get an extended drive of one. The seats are extremely uncomfortable and non adjustable for periods over 30 minutes. The interior is full of rattles and extreme back ground noise. They will be utterly useless in the winter. Really, they are wonderful on a summer sunday blast for twenty minutes and that is it.
IMHO
I agree that is not a daily driver. I've had a VX220 and Elise and would NEVER EVER have one as a daily unless your commute is a few miles. I'm not an old boy either, i'm in my 20s and would still consider either car too compromised to be a daily driver.
Some interesting responses, thankyou. To clarify, I have a Lexus for my (boring) commute which is extremely quiet, very comfortable, and ideal for the job. I have always run two cars so I don't need to compromise too much on the fun car; the mention of driving in the wet is down to my efforts to keep the mr2 rust-free. The Elise may not be quick in the wet, and I wouldn't choose to use it in the pouring rain, but at least it won't dissolve if i get caught in a shower!
I should also add that I am fairly tolerant of bumps, squeaks and rattles after running a variety of impractical, home made or knackered cars in the past!
My main question really was whether you can (for example) use all the revs in 2nd, 3rd, 4th without getting banned. Maybe I just need to fit a really short final drive ratio
I should also add that I am fairly tolerant of bumps, squeaks and rattles after running a variety of impractical, home made or knackered cars in the past!
My main question really was whether you can (for example) use all the revs in 2nd, 3rd, 4th without getting banned. Maybe I just need to fit a really short final drive ratio
Using all the revs in fourth could get you in trouble. 3rd too, really.
Mine is my default car - unless I specifically need the estate car, it's what I tend to use day to day. But then I work from home and don't do a lot of mileage on motorways or in traffic. I find the seat very comfortable, but it's narrow and only adjusts fore and aft, so it's probably a matter of luck whether you fit or not. It is noisy, it is a pain to demist in winter, and it is a temptation to do things which one shouldn't, but it's still hugely enjoyable even when you don't drive it hard.
The newer tyre options are brilliant in the wet, relatively speaking.
Mine is my default car - unless I specifically need the estate car, it's what I tend to use day to day. But then I work from home and don't do a lot of mileage on motorways or in traffic. I find the seat very comfortable, but it's narrow and only adjusts fore and aft, so it's probably a matter of luck whether you fit or not. It is noisy, it is a pain to demist in winter, and it is a temptation to do things which one shouldn't, but it's still hugely enjoyable even when you don't drive it hard.
The newer tyre options are brilliant in the wet, relatively speaking.
If the track car is 'too slow' for you, does that mean you can lap it at or near it's ultimate pace? If not, you still have more to learn from it. An Elise 111S is a fast car which can teach you a lot; shod with some normal 1A tyres it'll be entertaining, although the FR layout of the Caterham etc is more exploitable because it's more manageable at and beyond the limit.
It sounds to me though that you're at risk of making a bad comprimise here and ending up with neither a civilised road car nor an accomplished track car... So In my opinion you should go extreme and get a 7 style car again. Who gives a damn if it's no quicker than a warmed up Fiesta on the road, that warmed up Fiesta is in turn probably slower than a 535d... what does that matter? what does it prove? Who are you trying to impress on the roads? Top consideration should be what do you want.
It sounds to me though that you're at risk of making a bad comprimise here and ending up with neither a civilised road car nor an accomplished track car... So In my opinion you should go extreme and get a 7 style car again. Who gives a damn if it's no quicker than a warmed up Fiesta on the road, that warmed up Fiesta is in turn probably slower than a 535d... what does that matter? what does it prove? Who are you trying to impress on the roads? Top consideration should be what do you want.
If it's more track than road car, go for a caterham. There's a nice supersport spec car with 140bhp, a LSD, wider rear tyres, heater and weather gear on this site for about £20k.
Get some spare wheels and put tyres, like the avon cr322s that the academy use, for the road. That will raise the ride height a bit and bring the limits in the dry down.
Get some spare wheels and put tyres, like the avon cr322s that the academy use, for the road. That will raise the ride height a bit and bring the limits in the dry down.
I'd say it's probably the best Elise and an ideal track / road compromise. At the time I had my VX220 same chaps with 111Rs would go to the same trackdays and my modified vx220 was a bit slower but I never found that too slow for track. I currently have a mk3 MR2 with a 2ZZgE engine conversion (111R engine) and the way the Lift works means it does feel like it's got 2 engines, nice amount of torque under 6000rpm (more torque than the 1ZZFE) and then on cam change really takes off. On track it'd never be out of lift. If I ever returned to Loti it'd be looking for a 2ZZGE engined one.
I suspect this isn't a very common view but personally I wouldn't consider an Elise as a weekend car. If you don't need the practicality it offers as a daily driver, there are better (lighter, more focused) things out there. I also wouldn't consider one as a track car - in standard form they just aren't that good on track and modifications get expensive.
In your situation, I'd be looking for something Seven-like or even another Fisher Fury but this time with a windscreen and weather gear.
In your situation, I'd be looking for something Seven-like or even another Fisher Fury but this time with a windscreen and weather gear.
BritishRacinGrin said:
If the track car is 'too slow' for you, does that mean you can lap it at or near it's ultimate pace? If not, you still have more to learn from it. An Elise 111S is a fast car which can teach you a lot; shod with some normal 1A tyres it'll be entertaining, although the FR layout of the Caterham etc is more exploitable because it's more manageable at and beyond the limit.
It sounds to me though that you're at risk of making a bad comprimise here and ending up with neither a civilised road car nor an accomplished track car... So In my opinion you should go extreme and get a 7 style car again. Who gives a damn if it's no quicker than a warmed up Fiesta on the road, that warmed up Fiesta is in turn probably slower than a 535d... what does that matter? what does it prove? Who are you trying to impress on the roads? Top consideration should be what do you want.
I'm not a racing driver, never will be, so despite a few tuition sessions I highly doubt I get the last tenth out of the MR2. Thats not why I go on track days though; I enjoy the excitement of cornering braking and accelerating far harder than is allowed on the road, and doing so to the best of my limited ability. I think that, with those things in mind, more power = more fun in a track car, as long as it's competent in handling and braking. I have had some wild rides in ~500bhp/ton track cars and would love to have all that and more under my right foot!It sounds to me though that you're at risk of making a bad comprimise here and ending up with neither a civilised road car nor an accomplished track car... So In my opinion you should go extreme and get a 7 style car again. Who gives a damn if it's no quicker than a warmed up Fiesta on the road, that warmed up Fiesta is in turn probably slower than a 535d... what does that matter? what does it prove? Who are you trying to impress on the roads? Top consideration should be what do you want.
However, I rarely get a whole day off from family, work etc to get out on track. So I'd like a car which can also be enjoyed on the road, but here I think slower = better, as alluded to above. If I can't even use third gear then it just becomes an exercise in frustration.
I think you and kambites are probably on the right lines, suggesting another super-lightweight. Enough pace for the track, but raw enough to be an event at road speeds - an Elise would be positively refined compared to some of my old cars. A £20k Caterham would be a fair chunk over budget though - perhaps I will end up back in a Fury after all this! I think decent weather gear is a must though, from my prior experience, so that may rule out some of the cheaper (eg non-Caterham) options.
It's funnny how people's preferences vary so widely when it comes to Elises. Personally I don't understand the comments about them being uncomfortable or impractical in the cold, wet, motorways etc. They're not as easy as a Golf day to day, but something like demisting is simply not an issue if you use the ventilation properly (e.g. get the fans blowing as soon as you get in the cabin and before you've closed the window/door - that way it won't mist up in the first place).
The advantage of cars like Elises is they can be engaging and fun at any speed. Especially so for the 111R, where (if you wanted) you could stay below 6000rpm on the road and still have an engaging car that is appreciably quicker car than your MR2; get it on track and use the full rev range, and there won't be a great deal of cars that are quicker - it will be a challenge to get the most out of the car.
You can make an Elise as road biased or track biased as you like because it's just a matter of coilover and tyre choice. Your choice where you want to put your car in that spectrum. Stick to road tyres if you want it to dance around a bit on track, or go to sticky stuff for outright speed.
In short, buy one.
They have a huge advantage over 7s and similar for their useability - no more being cold and wet at cold and wet track days, or needing to trailer the car etc.
The advantage of cars like Elises is they can be engaging and fun at any speed. Especially so for the 111R, where (if you wanted) you could stay below 6000rpm on the road and still have an engaging car that is appreciably quicker car than your MR2; get it on track and use the full rev range, and there won't be a great deal of cars that are quicker - it will be a challenge to get the most out of the car.
You can make an Elise as road biased or track biased as you like because it's just a matter of coilover and tyre choice. Your choice where you want to put your car in that spectrum. Stick to road tyres if you want it to dance around a bit on track, or go to sticky stuff for outright speed.
In short, buy one.
They have a huge advantage over 7s and similar for their useability - no more being cold and wet at cold and wet track days, or needing to trailer the car etc.You don't have to chuck 20k at a Caterham, although I acknowledge that they don't offer the same value as the Fisher. There's a strong market in ex-race cars being that Caterham have been churning them out at a rate of 30-50 cars per season for the past fifteen years. There'll be plenty of 1.6 k-series or latterly 1.6 Ford Sigma engines, making 130bhp and 120bhp respectively, and costing less between 10k for an early k-series car and maybe 18k for a one year old acadmeny car.
The good news about these is that you're unlikely to lose much money if any so they're pretty close to cost neutral.
My remarks re: power & lap times- Too many point & squirt drivers on trackdays who are scared to approach the limit in corners. I don't like this, I try to discourage it. Sounds as though you don't fit into that category. It's a popular mistake though: "I want to go faster... I know, MOAR POWER!"
The good news about these is that you're unlikely to lose much money if any so they're pretty close to cost neutral.
My remarks re: power & lap times- Too many point & squirt drivers on trackdays who are scared to approach the limit in corners. I don't like this, I try to discourage it. Sounds as though you don't fit into that category. It's a popular mistake though: "I want to go faster... I know, MOAR POWER!"
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