Hi to Hydrogen ?
Discussion
Is there a general opinion out there regarding the potential Hydrogen revolution ?
As a slight aside, I watched the Top Gear Patagonia and there was a hint of sadness regarding the future prospects of the magnificent V8 !
However there will be no one taking my Jaguar XJR off me heh heh !
My interest in the Hydrogen is that personally I see it as a very viable prospect compared to anything else out there, which can be used as a general family car. I do think that potential £40k prices are absolutely extortionate as I do not see how it would cost more to build one of theses cars than a traditional motor......Although there will be start up costs but surely that's the investment so why take the pi** ? It's nice in my world !....
As a slight aside, I watched the Top Gear Patagonia and there was a hint of sadness regarding the future prospects of the magnificent V8 !
However there will be no one taking my Jaguar XJR off me heh heh !
My interest in the Hydrogen is that personally I see it as a very viable prospect compared to anything else out there, which can be used as a general family car. I do think that potential £40k prices are absolutely extortionate as I do not see how it would cost more to build one of theses cars than a traditional motor......Although there will be start up costs but surely that's the investment so why take the pi** ? It's nice in my world !....
Zippyworld said:
Is there a general opinion out there regarding the potential Hydrogen revolution ?
As a slight aside, I watched the Top Gear Patagonia and there was a hint of sadness regarding the future prospects of the magnificent V8 !
However there will be no one taking my Jaguar XJR off me heh heh !
My interest in the Hydrogen is that personally I see it as a very viable prospect compared to anything else out there, which can be used as a general family car. I do think that potential £40k prices are absolutely extortionate as I do not see how it would cost more to build one of theses cars than a traditional motor......Although there will be start up costs but surely that's the investment so why take the pi** ? It's nice in my world !....
Q: how do you propose making the hydrogen in the first place?As a slight aside, I watched the Top Gear Patagonia and there was a hint of sadness regarding the future prospects of the magnificent V8 !
However there will be no one taking my Jaguar XJR off me heh heh !
My interest in the Hydrogen is that personally I see it as a very viable prospect compared to anything else out there, which can be used as a general family car. I do think that potential £40k prices are absolutely extortionate as I do not see how it would cost more to build one of theses cars than a traditional motor......Although there will be start up costs but surely that's the investment so why take the pi** ? It's nice in my world !....
Zippyworld said:
I dare say the same question was posed about any fossil fuel " how are you going to make it in the first place ."
As with all theses fuels they can be exhausted like LPG can.
These do not appear to be issues from what I can tell.
Surely there will need to be a fuel infrastructure too.
I disagree.As with all theses fuels they can be exhausted like LPG can.
These do not appear to be issues from what I can tell.
Surely there will need to be a fuel infrastructure too.
Oil is in the ground, with skill you can pump it out of the ground, refine it and drive about powered by it.
Hydrogen is not available in that way, so how do you propose it's made available in the first place?
Why do you want a hydrogen car?
If you do less then 60 miles a day and have somewhere to charge then buy an battery car
If you do less then 120 miles a day and have somewhere to charge at home and at work then buy a battery car
Do far more then 120 miles a day then buy a fossil fueled car or try harder at school so you aren't a travelling salesmen
Seriously
Hydrogen fuel cell cars are basically a less efficient battery EV which is more difficult to recharge which has a leaky bomb in the boot
Nothing wrong with a combination of fossil fueled, hybrids and EVs for 99.9% of peoples personnel transport needs
If you do less then 60 miles a day and have somewhere to charge then buy an battery car
If you do less then 120 miles a day and have somewhere to charge at home and at work then buy a battery car
Do far more then 120 miles a day then buy a fossil fueled car or try harder at school so you aren't a travelling salesmen
Seriously
Hydrogen fuel cell cars are basically a less efficient battery EV which is more difficult to recharge which has a leaky bomb in the boot
Nothing wrong with a combination of fossil fueled, hybrids and EVs for 99.9% of peoples personnel transport needs
You see no reason why it should cost more to make a hydrogen-powered car?! Really?
Hydrogen can go two ways in passenger cars:
It'll take a very long time, but I think it'll get there eventually. Current known oil reserves are good for 53 years, and rising as more is found in Venezuela, so fossil fuels aren't likely to run out in our lifetimes but let's assume that one day they do. By then, the technology will be much more mature, and we'd have to be creating renewable fuels. I read quite an interesting paper on the most efficient utilisation of land for fuel production, and using either photovoltaic cells or wind power to produce gaseous hydrogen gave around 15 times greater energy yield than growing any type of biofuel, while still leaving plenty of land free for crops or animals.
In all, don't hold your breath. But unless someone discovers something incredible, it'll happen eventually.
CNG and LPG both offer useful reductions in carbon monoxide and hydrocarbon emissions, LPG isn't greatly efficient and CNG is a bugger for storing enough fuel on-vehicle, and both rely on fossil fuels so are worth nothing in the distant future.
Hydrogen can go two ways in passenger cars:
- Use it to fuel a conventional internal combustion engine, which actually works fairly well and obviously allows more technology transfer from existing cars,
- Use it to produce electricity in a fuel cell and power an electric motor, which is ultimately more efficient but a huge technological challenge and a serious departure from current design.
It'll take a very long time, but I think it'll get there eventually. Current known oil reserves are good for 53 years, and rising as more is found in Venezuela, so fossil fuels aren't likely to run out in our lifetimes but let's assume that one day they do. By then, the technology will be much more mature, and we'd have to be creating renewable fuels. I read quite an interesting paper on the most efficient utilisation of land for fuel production, and using either photovoltaic cells or wind power to produce gaseous hydrogen gave around 15 times greater energy yield than growing any type of biofuel, while still leaving plenty of land free for crops or animals.
In all, don't hold your breath. But unless someone discovers something incredible, it'll happen eventually.
CNG and LPG both offer useful reductions in carbon monoxide and hydrocarbon emissions, LPG isn't greatly efficient and CNG is a bugger for storing enough fuel on-vehicle, and both rely on fossil fuels so are worth nothing in the distant future.
Edited by McSam on Monday 29th December 16:28
Interestingly, both Toyota and Honda have said that battery EVs are a dead end, and the future is petrol hybrids and then hydrogen fuel cells. I understand the arguments for battery EVs, and the Tesla cars are lovely, but Toyota and Honda are not stupid, and they must have analysed this issue very carefully before deciding to spend billions on commercialising hydrogen vehicles.
They also have a track record of being correct on long-term trends.
I wonder what their thinking is. They must have their reasons.
They also have a track record of being correct on long-term trends.
I wonder what their thinking is. They must have their reasons.
Max_Torque said:
Any Hydrogen Fuel cell car will also have a fairly sizable traction battery, in order to both do load leveling, and to provide regenerative capability. As such, when you have 85% of an electric car in their anyway, why wouldn't you just fit a slightly larger battery and go EV?
Because if you're looking far enough into the future that there are no non-renewable energy sources left, an electric motor is probably the most common motive power for cars, which means it'd have to fit all lifestyles including those who regularly travel long distances. Then you'd need to have some sort of energy store which could be quickly and easily replenished during a journey, and a hydrogen fuel cell makes sense for that.Aren't Hyundai mass producing a Hydrogen powered car from next year ?
I am thinking that it can only be a good thing across all fronts.
If fossil fuels last 50 odd years, and I know old dried wells are naturally replenishing but not at the rate it's being used, this is still only a generation away so a viable opportunity has to come forth.
I have serious reservations about EV, the technology just doesn't do it for me, I believe that there are huge cost implications for replacement batteries after 8 years or so too.
Compressed Hydrogen tanks and cleanliness, combined with reasonable performance are all ticked boxes.
Of course the Taxman / producers will still take ones pants down.....
I have seen a few counter arguments here but none raise any issues or questions that must be any different before the mass production, storage and infrastructure for petrol / diesel / LPG
As an aside, don't misunderstand me, still will be hooning around at 12 mpg.for fun.... Nothing changes that
I am thinking that it can only be a good thing across all fronts.
If fossil fuels last 50 odd years, and I know old dried wells are naturally replenishing but not at the rate it's being used, this is still only a generation away so a viable opportunity has to come forth.
I have serious reservations about EV, the technology just doesn't do it for me, I believe that there are huge cost implications for replacement batteries after 8 years or so too.
Compressed Hydrogen tanks and cleanliness, combined with reasonable performance are all ticked boxes.
Of course the Taxman / producers will still take ones pants down.....
I have seen a few counter arguments here but none raise any issues or questions that must be any different before the mass production, storage and infrastructure for petrol / diesel / LPG
As an aside, don't misunderstand me, still will be hooning around at 12 mpg.for fun.... Nothing changes that
Zippyworld said:
Aren't Hyundai mass producing a Hydrogen powered car from next year ?
I am thinking that it can only be a good thing across all fronts.
If fossil fuels last 50 odd years, and I know old dried wells are naturally replenishing but not at the rate it's being used, this is still only a generation away so a viable opportunity has to come forth.
I have serious reservations about EV, the technology just doesn't do it for me, I believe that there are huge cost implications for replacement batteries after 8 years or so too.
Compressed Hydrogen tanks and cleanliness, combined with reasonable performance are all ticked boxes.
Of course the Taxman / producers will still take ones pants down.....
I have seen a few counter arguments here but none raise any issues or questions that must be any different before the mass production, storage and infrastructure for petrol / diesel / LPG
As an aside, don't misunderstand me, still will be hooning around at 12 mpg.for fun.... Nothing changes that
Where does the hydrogen come from?I am thinking that it can only be a good thing across all fronts.
If fossil fuels last 50 odd years, and I know old dried wells are naturally replenishing but not at the rate it's being used, this is still only a generation away so a viable opportunity has to come forth.
I have serious reservations about EV, the technology just doesn't do it for me, I believe that there are huge cost implications for replacement batteries after 8 years or so too.
Compressed Hydrogen tanks and cleanliness, combined with reasonable performance are all ticked boxes.
Of course the Taxman / producers will still take ones pants down.....
I have seen a few counter arguments here but none raise any issues or questions that must be any different before the mass production, storage and infrastructure for petrol / diesel / LPG
As an aside, don't misunderstand me, still will be hooning around at 12 mpg.for fun.... Nothing changes that
You use electricty to turn water into hydrogen and oxygen
Why not use the same electricty to charge a battery?
You can't just drill a hole and have hydrogen flow out of the ground.
As to EV batteries
Why can't they be recycled?
AmitG said:
Interestingly, both Toyota and Honda have said that battery EVs are a dead end, and the future is petrol hybrids and then hydrogen fuel cells. I understand the arguments for battery EVs, and the Tesla cars are lovely, but Toyota and Honda are not stupid,
That they aren'tThe folk that buy their cars are
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