Repairing a Toyota "Hybrid Battery Pack"

[405dogvan]

Sorry is this has been posted but the search here is somewhere less than useless...

Yesterday, someone posted to Reddit/IMGUR about his experience with what Toyota told him was a 'dead' battery pack in his Camry

http://imgur.com/gallery/j8Bcp/

Short version is...

He bought the car cheap and without warranty (sold that way for a reason I'm sure!!) - so when Toyota asked for $4400 to repair the fault, he decided to take the thing apart himself!! He took the pack out, tested the cells ($45 each to replace) but they were all fine so he cleaned-up the bussbar connectors and the problem seems to be gone!

So $4400 for a bit of elbow grease seems a touch - well - extortionate-bordering-on-outright-fraud??

I guess we'll see a lot more of this - esp as manufacturers seem to not want dealers touching this stuff at all - I found it quite interesting (esp that there are already DIY videos on Youtube and third-party suppliers for the packs)

Edited by 405dogvan on Saturday 14th February 13:46

[rigga]

Can't recall which, but I thought one manufacturer only actually rented the battery packs in these hybrids, and you are forced to pay to replace them at spesific intervals?

[Butter Face]

rigga said:

Can't recall which, but I thought one manufacturer only actually rented the battery packs in these hybrids, and you are forced to pay to replace them at spesific intervals?

Renault/Nissan do battery rental in their Pure EV's but you aren't forced to replace them ever.




OP, I'd imagine the $4400 was for a straight replacment unit, so saying it was fraud isn't really the case. No doubt they would take one faulty (probably marked as a sealed unit) and junk it and bolt a new one in, seems the be the case for most battery/motor units in EV/Hybrid IME.

[Clivey]

Butter Face said:

No doubt they would take one faulty (probably marked as a sealed unit) and junk it and bolt a new one in, seems the be the case for most battery/motor units in EV/Hybrid IME.

Because that's environmentally friendly.

[405dogvan]

The issue of whether a dealer/garage/mechanic is committing fraud/being dishonest is complex and I'm sure there's lots of legal language and complexity to it (and it's not new and not limited to battery packs by any means!!) - but if a dealer told you that you needed a new engine when all you needed was to remove and clean some hoses, would you consider the dealer to have been dishonest? I think you would??

I'm sure Toyota are simply "making hay" - soon there will be an ecosystem of people repairing and replacing this stuff (it's already evident in the video etc. posted in the OP) - it's interesting to see this stuff tho, it might demystify the whole thing a bit.

I saw a Leaf for-sale in an independent dealer this week too - first one I've seen outside the dealer network!!

[405dogvan]

Clivey said:

Butter Face said:

No doubt they would take one faulty (probably marked as a sealed unit) and junk it and bolt a new one in, seems the be the case for most battery/motor units in EV/Hybrid IME.

Because that's environmentally friendly.

The guy notes that the pack is made of relatively cheap interchangeable cells and connected with easy-to-remove bussbars etc. - so Toyota's decision to NOT allow dealers to service the packs is kinda bizarre. Shipping huge objects around isn't cheap and I think there's an expectation that a 'dealer' can actually repair things for you (imagine if engines were considered sealed-units!!)

I'm sure it's 100% eco-friendly tho, because Toyota just clean the connectors and pocket $4400 less a bit of time and shipping cost.

It's probably not as bad as the replacement ECU my OH's grandad's Suzuki needed - the part was £1400 in a car which only cost £5999 - hard to believe adding EU-mandated anti-skid cost almost 30% of the list price eh?

[Butter Face]

Clivey said:

Butter Face said:

No doubt they would take one faulty (probably marked as a sealed unit) and junk it and bolt a new one in, seems the be the case for most battery/motor units in EV/Hybrid IME.

Because that's environmentally friendly.

I never said it was.

You just need to look at where the raw ingredients for battery packs are mined, then shipped, processed, built and shipped again around the world to see that EV's (before they are in use) are hardly environmentally friendly.

[mph1977]

Clivey said:

Butter Face said:

No doubt they would take one faulty (probably marked as a sealed unit) and junk it and bolt a new one in, seems the be the case for most battery/motor units in EV/Hybrid IME.

Because that's environmentally friendly.

are you aware of the concept of exchange units ?

ever had a new starter or alternator on a IC engined vehicle ?

typically there is a surcharge if you don;t return the faulty unit ... which goes off to be reconditioned ...

any reason to suggest this isn;t being done with batteries ?

ever brought a chjeap printer cartirdge or toner unit ?

[98elise]

Butter Face said:

Clivey said:

Butter Face said:

No doubt they would take one faulty (probably marked as a sealed unit) and junk it and bolt a new one in, seems the be the case for most battery/motor units in EV/Hybrid IME.

Because that's environmentally friendly.

I never said it was.

You just need to look at where the raw ingredients for battery packs are mined, then shipped, processed, built and shipped again around the world to see that EV's (before they are in use) are hardly environmentally friendly.

And of course oil is so envirommentally friendly? Overall EV's use far less power.

Edited by 98elise on Saturday 14th February 14:30

[Butter Face]

405dogvan said:

The issue of whether a dealer/garage/mechanic is committing fraud/being dishonest is complex and I'm sure there's lots of legal language and complexity to it (and it's not new and not limited to battery packs by any means!!) - but if a dealer told you that you needed a new engine when all you needed was to remove and clean some hoses, would you consider the dealer to have been dishonest? I think you would??

I'm sure Toyota are simply "making hay" - soon there will be an ecosystem of people repairing and replacing this stuff (it's already evident in the video etc. posted in the OP) - it's interesting to see this stuff tho, it might demystify the whole thing a bit.

I saw a Leaf for-sale in an independent dealer this week too - first one I've seen outside the dealer network!!

Your analogy is a bit off, if they said your engine needed to be stripped apart for a 30p washer to be cleaned and refitted and it would take 10 hours to do so (as a guess for stripping a battery pack, cleaning and reassembling it), or they would, as the manufacturer expected them to, replace the whole engine. That's more comparable.

It's still not right, but if Toyota/BMW/Insert Manufacturer here says that a battery pack is a consumable and if faulty should be replaced, dealers aren't going to rushing to take it apart.....

[98elise]

405dogvan said:

Sorry is this has been posted but the search here is somewhere less than useless...

Yesterday, someone posted to Reddit/IMGUR about his experience with what Toyota told him was a 'dead' battery pack in his Camry

http://imgur.com/gallery/j8Bcp/

Short version is...

He bought the car cheap and without warranty (sold that way for a reason I'm sure!!) - so when Toyota asked for $4400 to repair the fault, he decided to take the thing apart himself!! He took the pack out, tested the cells ($45 each to replace) but they were all fine so he cleaned-up the bussbar connectors and the problem seems to be gone!

So $4400 for a bit of elbow grease seems a touch - well - extortionate-bordering-on-outright-fraud??

I guess we'll see a lot more of this - esp as manufacturers seem to not want dealers touching this stuff at all - I found it quite interesting (esp that there are already DIY videos on Youtube and third-party suppliers for the packs)

Edited by 405dogvan on Saturday 14th February 13:46

Traction batteries have a very low failure rate, and when they do its when the car is old, so not really when you want to buy a brand new battery. Battery refurbishment is pretty common when this happens, typically around £400 to do.

[405dogvan]

mph1977 said:

any reason to suggest this isn;t being done with batteries ?

Oh I'm SURE it's being done - but $4400 is a stload of money - esp when there's nothing actually WRONG with the thing (the dealer hasn't checked that, of course, so they don't know if it's actually faulty or not).

Few, if any, battery packs will end-up being completely useless - most will need cleaning or perhaps some cells replacing - the odds of one arriving with all-dead-cells must be tiny (and likely related to water damage or something else irregular?)

Alternators, cylinder heads, gearboxes are time-consuming and complex to rebuild and so are exchanged - we accept that, it makes sense because you couldn't afford to pay dealer-hourly-rates to have that work done.

Batteries are not complex - probably takes less time to test one than it does to remove the fker. You require training in electrical work but it's 2015, if there aren't some trained electricians in a dealer workshop they aren't fit for the purpose. There's a LOT of these cars out there now - I'd imagine the majority - or at least a big percentage - of cars in a Toyota dealership are now hybrids - they need to be able to maintain the cars.

[Butter Face]

98elise said:

Butter Face said:

Clivey said:

Butter Face said:

No doubt they would take one faulty (probably marked as a sealed unit) and junk it and bolt a new one in, seems the be the case for most battery/motor units in EV/Hybrid IME.

Because that's environmentally friendly.

I never said it was.

You just need to look at where the raw ingredients for battery packs are mined, then shipped, processed, built and shipped again around the world to see that EV's (before they are in use) are hardly environmentally friendly.

And of course oil is so envirommentally friendly? Overall EV's use far less power?

Jeez, did I say that? Did I say they were better or worse than Internal combustion?

I just said that have a lot more impact on the environment (before use) than most realise.

[405dogvan]

Butter Face said:

Your analogy is a bit off, if they said your engine needed to be stripped apart for a 30p washer to be cleaned and refitted and it would take 10 hours to do so (as a guess for stripping a battery pack, cleaning and reassembling it), or they would, as the manufacturer expected them to, replace the whole engine. That's more comparable.

We don't replace engines like that tho - and they're CHEAPER than this battery pack in some cases!

Will they actually start repairing hybrids in the dealer or will they instead start to treat engines as 'sealed units' I wonder ;0

[Butter Face]

405dogvan said:

Butter Face said:

Your analogy is a bit off, if they said your engine needed to be stripped apart for a 30p washer to be cleaned and refitted and it would take 10 hours to do so (as a guess for stripping a battery pack, cleaning and reassembling it), or they would, as the manufacturer expected them to, replace the whole engine. That's more comparable.

We don't replace engines like that tho - and they're CHEAPER than this battery pack in some cases!

Will they actually start repairing hybrids in the dealer or will they instead start to treat engines as 'sealed units' I wonder ;0

In most cases of engine failure, dealers/manufacturers will opt to replace whole engines rather than rebuild (IME)

You could have a snapped cambelt, bent valves etc and to most it would seem better to rebuild.

[MikeyC]

Interesting tale of woe from a similar hybrid (Honda) regarding battery 'life'

[kambites]

Nothing special or unusual about it. I've seen similar in all sorts of products, both automotive and otherwise. There's plenty of examples of similar things in conventional cars.

It's almost always going to be an order of magnitude cheaper to fix things if you're willing to find the fault yourself.

Edited by kambites on Saturday 14th February 14:46

[anonymous-user]

I'd imagine in terms of liability it probably isn't within the manufacturers interest to authorise battery pack repairs. Also its worth remembering that in this country at least you need specialist training to legally work on the high voltage side of a electric vehicle much less start ripping apart battery packs.

[mph1977]

279 said:

I'd imagine in terms of liability it probably isn't within the manufacturers interest to authorise battery pack repairs. Also its worth remembering that in this country at least you need specialist training to legally work on the high voltage side of a electric vehicle much less start ripping apart battery packs.

this is PH , don't let the truth or Health and safety get in the way of a rant ..

[Drawweight]

mph1977 said:

ever brought a chjeap printer cartirdge or toner unit ?

I wouldn't buy a cheap keyboard either