Main dealer has destroyed my engine
Discussion
Ok here goes, thought it would be sorted by now, but no, the Garage aren't playing. Would appreciate some advice.
I had a problem with my car which necessitated the removal of the inlet manifold. On refitting the manifold 3 washers pinged off; I found 2 but could not find the other.
I searched and searched and could not find it, my conclusion was that it was potentially lost down the inlet tract. At this point I decided to get the car ASAP to the main dealer for them to borescope the tracts and find the washer.
Car was delivered to them; I escorted the car all the way from my house onto the breakdown wagon and to the dealers workshop to make sure it wasn't started. When i got to the dealer I explained the situation to the workshop Forman.
Dealer was instructed to borescope the inlet tracts and borescope/search anywhere else. Later they said that their scope could not access the bore and that they had looked everywhere else, they asked what I wanted them to do. I instructed them to remove the cylinder head. Next day they phoned to say that they had removed the head and found nothing. Cost so far £1700.00.
I urged them to look for the washer. Got a phone call 2 days later to say that they had built the engine back up started an ran the car and all was well and then the engine had dropped a valve and had destroyed the engine.!!!!
I couldn't believe it! The exact scenario I wanted to avoid happened.
I don't believe for a second that a valve had dropped. I believe that they hadn't looked properly and that the washer was eventually sucked into the engine. They won't admit that.
I have been waiting for one week now for them to come to me with a resolution. As it stands, my car is a right-off as the cost for a new engine would be way more than the cars value. I don't believe repair is an option due to the extent of the damage. Other options are a second hand engine but they have said that they will not do that.
I'm told it's in the hands of the dealer principle. I am told they will get back to me; i 'm the one that has had to phone them to try and find out what's happening they never phone me.
The first week I paid for a hire car. The second week They have provided a new car though they are charging me £10/day insurance cost.
Do garages have insurance to cover these situations?
I don't believe i should be liable for the £1700 to remove the head and find the washer is this reasonable?
Any advice as to how to handle this would be appreciated
Duck
I had a problem with my car which necessitated the removal of the inlet manifold. On refitting the manifold 3 washers pinged off; I found 2 but could not find the other.
I searched and searched and could not find it, my conclusion was that it was potentially lost down the inlet tract. At this point I decided to get the car ASAP to the main dealer for them to borescope the tracts and find the washer.
Car was delivered to them; I escorted the car all the way from my house onto the breakdown wagon and to the dealers workshop to make sure it wasn't started. When i got to the dealer I explained the situation to the workshop Forman.
Dealer was instructed to borescope the inlet tracts and borescope/search anywhere else. Later they said that their scope could not access the bore and that they had looked everywhere else, they asked what I wanted them to do. I instructed them to remove the cylinder head. Next day they phoned to say that they had removed the head and found nothing. Cost so far £1700.00.
I urged them to look for the washer. Got a phone call 2 days later to say that they had built the engine back up started an ran the car and all was well and then the engine had dropped a valve and had destroyed the engine.!!!!
I couldn't believe it! The exact scenario I wanted to avoid happened.
I don't believe for a second that a valve had dropped. I believe that they hadn't looked properly and that the washer was eventually sucked into the engine. They won't admit that.
I have been waiting for one week now for them to come to me with a resolution. As it stands, my car is a right-off as the cost for a new engine would be way more than the cars value. I don't believe repair is an option due to the extent of the damage. Other options are a second hand engine but they have said that they will not do that.
I'm told it's in the hands of the dealer principle. I am told they will get back to me; i 'm the one that has had to phone them to try and find out what's happening they never phone me.
The first week I paid for a hire car. The second week They have provided a new car though they are charging me £10/day insurance cost.
Do garages have insurance to cover these situations?
I don't believe i should be liable for the £1700 to remove the head and find the washer is this reasonable?
Any advice as to how to handle this would be appreciated
Duck
Difficult one.
They could have removed the head and not found it, and then it could have 'reappeared' somewhere in the timing chain or cam followers when the car was started.
I doubt they'll pay for a new engine, and I doubt they will offer you any compensation.
I would expect you not to have to pay the £1700 for the head removal though. Seems quite a lot just to take some parts off - even at £100 an hour main dealer rates, thats still 17 hours to remove and replace a head!
They could have removed the head and not found it, and then it could have 'reappeared' somewhere in the timing chain or cam followers when the car was started.
I doubt they'll pay for a new engine, and I doubt they will offer you any compensation.
I would expect you not to have to pay the £1700 for the head removal though. Seems quite a lot just to take some parts off - even at £100 an hour main dealer rates, thats still 17 hours to remove and replace a head!
Condi said:
Difficult one.
They could have removed the head and not found it, and then it could have 'reappeared' somewhere in the timing chain or cam followers when the car was started.
I doubt they'll pay for a new engine, and I doubt they will offer you any compensation.
I would expect you not to have to pay the £1700 for the head removal though. Seems quite a lot just to take some parts off - even at £100 an hour main dealer rates, thats still 17 hours to remove and replace a head!
To be fair the £1700 was for the investigation removal and refit. What I would add is that hey were instructed to find the washer. it could only be in a limited number of areas. See your point re the followers but would expect them to take extra care in this senario.They could have removed the head and not found it, and then it could have 'reappeared' somewhere in the timing chain or cam followers when the car was started.
I doubt they'll pay for a new engine, and I doubt they will offer you any compensation.
I would expect you not to have to pay the £1700 for the head removal though. Seems quite a lot just to take some parts off - even at £100 an hour main dealer rates, thats still 17 hours to remove and replace a head!
The washer itself is thin metal bonded to orange coloured rubber, not easy to miss, but i couldn't find it.
Edited by DuckDuck on Thursday 19th February 21:23
They seem to have gone ahead with something you had strictly asked them not to do and failed to do the job had asked them to do, i.e find the washer.
If after removing the cylinder head the dealer could not locate the washer then strictly speaking they should contact you to find out what you wanted them to do next, the fact that you had the car recovered in and explicitly asked them not to start the car from the outset surely means they are liable for the damage caused as it is reasonable to assume that there was potential for damage to the engine with a spare washer floating around it.
Dealer really should have played it more safely IMO.
Once you get word from the dealer principle, might be worth seeking legal advice/mediation on it?
If after removing the cylinder head the dealer could not locate the washer then strictly speaking they should contact you to find out what you wanted them to do next, the fact that you had the car recovered in and explicitly asked them not to start the car from the outset surely means they are liable for the damage caused as it is reasonable to assume that there was potential for damage to the engine with a spare washer floating around it.
Dealer really should have played it more safely IMO.
Once you get word from the dealer principle, might be worth seeking legal advice/mediation on it?
An object cannot be dropped down an inlet tract and appear in a timing case.
Whats happened is somebody has started the car, damage has occurred / engine has dropped onto 5 cylinders and now sounds rattly so have thought of an excuse for it all. Keep plodding away at them. Go higher and higher if need be
Whats happened is somebody has started the car, damage has occurred / engine has dropped onto 5 cylinders and now sounds rattly so have thought of an excuse for it all. Keep plodding away at them. Go higher and higher if need be
Pobsmate said:
They seem to have gone ahead with something you had strictly asked them not to do and failed to do the job had asked them to do, i.e find the washer.
If after removing the cylinder head the dealer could not locate the washer then strictly speaking they should contact you to find out what you wanted them to do next, the fact that you had the car recovered in and explicitly asked them not to start the car from the outset surely means they are liable for the damage caused as it is reasonable to assume that there was potential for damage to the engine with a spare washer floating around it.
Dealer really should have played it more safely IMO.
Once you get word from the dealer principle, might be worth seeking legal advice/mediation on it?
After removing the head finding nothing I asked them to look in 2 specific places (again) in addition to the general area where i had been working If after removing the cylinder head the dealer could not locate the washer then strictly speaking they should contact you to find out what you wanted them to do next, the fact that you had the car recovered in and explicitly asked them not to start the car from the outset surely means they are liable for the damage caused as it is reasonable to assume that there was potential for damage to the engine with a spare washer floating around it.
Dealer really should have played it more safely IMO.
Once you get word from the dealer principle, might be worth seeking legal advice/mediation on it?
dazwalsh said:
At any point after they put it all back together did you instruct them to start the engine? Did they even ask before they did?
I did not ask them to build it up only to continue to search. The washer should have been obvious as they were building the engine up; if the washer was in the head or camshaft area ; the washer overall is a fair size and can be easily seen. Hypothetical question: How much would you pay for an engine that contains a foreign body of unknown location? Because if the dealer caused the damage, that's how much they owe you. They don't owe you a fully working engine because that's not what you delivered to them.
Edited by iamed on Thursday 19th February 21:39
iamed said:
Hypothetical question: How much would you pay for an engine that contains a foreign body location unknown? Because if the dealer caused the damage, that's how much they owe you. They don't owe you a fully working engine because that's not what you delivered to them.
That's a good point. I would stick to your guns in this case. Whilst it's not black and white, the fact remains that you did not instruct them to put the engine back together and specifically told them not to fire it up.
neiljohnson said:
So has the engine been stripped again?
Wondering how they know it's dropped a valve
When the engine failed they removed the head to investigate i have had a look at the damage myself but could not make out the washer it could be there in the debris I'm not sure. the orange rubber could have melted. Wondering how they know it's dropped a valve
dazwalsh said:
At any point after they put it all back together did you instruct them to start the engine? Did they even ask before they did?
At SOME point, the engine's going to have to be started, right? Unless it's destined to be an ornament - in which case, a dropped valve makes no difference.The dealer were delivered a car engine with engine bits removed, and told to play cherchez-la-femme with a washer that has a roughly evens chance of being hidden under a toolbox in the OP's garage, at the side of the road after being shaken out on the recovery wagon, or in the inlet port. Or just plain miscounted in the first place. They've had the head off, and given it a damn good shake-about. No washer has shown itself. They've spent a considerable amount of time on what, to them, appears to be a wild goose chase, at the OP's instruction.
Then they've started it, run it, and nothing went amiss initially. But then it did. Why? I don't know. There's an obvious invitation to guess why, but let's put that on one side yet, and focus on what we do know.
Where, exactly, can this washer hide between inlet manifold and valve that it'll survive all that searching?
Let's say they didn't reassemble and start it, but phoned and said "Look, we've got it all apart, spread all over the workshop, and we can't find a dickeybird. What would you like us to continue spending your £100+vat per hour on next?". Well, what WOULD the next step have been...?
The only other option here is that there's an accusationg that they're lying about having removed the head, and that they've just spun it over without doing anything at all first... <crunch> Found it! Does anybody even KNOW that this scarlet pimperwashernel is what's caused the valve to "drop"? Is there any sign of the head having been off?
DuckDuck said:
When the engine failed they removed the head to investigate i have had a look at the damage myself but could not make out the washer it could be there in the debris I'm not sure. the orange rubber could have melted.
That's a mess. Clearly, it's the valve head that's done the damage to the head. Would the washer even have fitted past the valve stem and through the port?And isn't that an exhaust valve, anyway? There certainly doesn't appear to be any damage to the carbon build-up inside the tract.
No way that you can accuse them of not having removed the head, though, because that was a CLEAN head when the damage was done.
Playing devils' advocate here but I would guess you'll get nothing from the dealer. After all if I'm reading correctly it was you who dropped the washer in there, it's not really in their remit to try and fix your DIY balls up.
Ultimately you may not have asked them to start it up, but given that they'd had a look and found nothing, what would the next move be? Take it home and start it up, or take it elsewhere to be stripped down and searched again?
Ultimately you may not have asked them to start it up, but given that they'd had a look and found nothing, what would the next move be? Take it home and start it up, or take it elsewhere to be stripped down and searched again?
Pretty bonkers really. Surely you'd thoroughly checked the inlet manifold and throttle body and everything upstream of them.
From there on there's only a very limited area that it can be in!
My guess is they chucked the bore scope in, couldn't see anything so put it all back together and fired it up. The heads never been touched! Washer was probably stuck to a valve or something.
From there on there's only a very limited area that it can be in!
My guess is they chucked the bore scope in, couldn't see anything so put it all back together and fired it up. The heads never been touched! Washer was probably stuck to a valve or something.
TooMany2cvs said:
That's a mess. Clearly, it's the valve head that's done the damage to the head. Would the washer even have fitted past the valve stem and through the port?
And isn't that an exhaust valve, anyway? There certainly doesn't appear to be any damage to the carbon build-up inside the tract.
No way that you can accuse them of not having removed the head, though, because that was a CLEAN head when the damage was done.
This is something that has bugged me. Correct, it is an exhaust valve. Lets assume the washer was sucked into the engine the ONLY way that would happen is through the inlet tract via the manifold (and intercooler pipework which is one of the specific places I asked them to search) . could it be feasible for the washer and rubber to come past the inlet vale without obvious damage to the inlet valve. we don't see the inlet valve seat so can't be sure. Lets assume it has gotten past the inlet valve and is now in the cylinder. And isn't that an exhaust valve, anyway? There certainly doesn't appear to be any damage to the carbon build-up inside the tract.
No way that you can accuse them of not having removed the head, though, because that was a CLEAN head when the damage was done.
Exhaust stroke valve opens and washer is forced out but it somehow prevents the exhaust valve from fully closing. Piston comes up and hits the valve. The valve is pushed up slightly, enough to burst through the collets and on the next piston stroke the valve follows the piston down into the cylinder. On the powder stroke the piston comes up and destroys the valve and itself.
Pique said:
Playing devils' advocate here but I would guess you'll get nothing from the dealer. After all if I'm reading correctly it was you who dropped the washer in there, it's not really in their remit to try and fix your DIY balls up.
Ultimately you may not have asked them to start it up, but given that they'd had a look and found nothing, what would the next move be? Take it home and start it up, or take it elsewhere to be stripped down and searched again?
It is their remit if I pay them to find it and they have accepted the job I would have thought. there is only a limited number if places the washer could have been sitting Ultimately you may not have asked them to start it up, but given that they'd had a look and found nothing, what would the next move be? Take it home and start it up, or take it elsewhere to be stripped down and searched again?
Leptons said:
Pretty bonkers really. Surely you'd thoroughly checked the inlet manifold and throttle body and everything upstream of them.
From there on there's only a very limited area that it can be in!
My guess is they chucked the bore scope in, couldn't see anything so put it all back together and fired it up. The heads never been touched! Washer was probably stuck to a valve or something.
Correct!From there on there's only a very limited area that it can be in!
My guess is they chucked the bore scope in, couldn't see anything so put it all back together and fired it up. The heads never been touched! Washer was probably stuck to a valve or something.
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