Anyone know anything about 60's Brabhams?
Discussion
If so, Thoughts on this...
http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C521066#
Its possibly a BT15? To me the body doesn't look quite right (eg the windscreen profile), but could be after-market,the roll-hoop looks wrong and it has drum brakes at the rear, is that normal?!
Is it likely to be real? or a kit?
If it is Genuine, whats it worth?
http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C521066#
Its possibly a BT15? To me the body doesn't look quite right (eg the windscreen profile), but could be after-market,the roll-hoop looks wrong and it has drum brakes at the rear, is that normal?!
Is it likely to be real? or a kit?
If it is Genuine, whats it worth?
Interesting, it's got the period 1500cc 116e block but the chassis looks quite burly at the back with additional cross braces which suggests FFord not F3/FJ from the 60s though bracing could have been added at a later date. The head is the pre xflow head but period F3 cars should, I think, have had single down draught carbs and not twin 40s and its clearly in hillclimb spec. There are plenty of series, web sites and books out there which could help identify it
Looks lovely though but a genuine BT15 with period engine and FIA papers would be nearly three times the asking price which suggests that it's not a Brabham because if there was a chance I was sitting on a car potentially worth 60k, I'd be researching its provenance a bit more.
The roll hoop looks like it's been modified to suit a taller driver and/or updated MSA regs. The beauty of F3 in the 60s was the sheer number of manufacturers and the ease with which people could build them and go racing given the proliferation of Ford blocks.
Looks lovely though but a genuine BT15 with period engine and FIA papers would be nearly three times the asking price which suggests that it's not a Brabham because if there was a chance I was sitting on a car potentially worth 60k, I'd be researching its provenance a bit more.
The roll hoop looks like it's been modified to suit a taller driver and/or updated MSA regs. The beauty of F3 in the 60s was the sheer number of manufacturers and the ease with which people could build them and go racing given the proliferation of Ford blocks.
Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 8th March 09:59
Thanks pablo, yes its is a bit intriguing... the suspension looks correct but anyone could make similar tubular parts with a welder...
I'm looking for a hillclimb / historic track car, this is seriously tempting, but its clearly been for sale for ages, suggesting its either an expensive kit, or such a mish-mash its unrecognisable.
Personally, given its got no provable history, provenance or even a chassis number, I think it is very over-priced, its not like the engine is anything special really.
Yes if its a genuine Brabham its £50/60k.... worth a poke about possibly.
I'm looking for a hillclimb / historic track car, this is seriously tempting, but its clearly been for sale for ages, suggesting its either an expensive kit, or such a mish-mash its unrecognisable.
Personally, given its got no provable history, provenance or even a chassis number, I think it is very over-priced, its not like the engine is anything special really.
Yes if its a genuine Brabham its £50/60k.... worth a poke about possibly.
20k does seem a lot given the lack of history but the historic F3 series is popular so they should provide some pointers.
There are plenty of nice period FFords around for under 20k, Dulon, Merlyn etc, and they may well start getting invites to the more prestigious historic meetings soon but also just as much fun at hillcimb or Sprints. I'm sure the was a FFord race at the historic festival at Silverstone last year which is a really cheap way to get into a fantasic event!
The engine might be interesting if you could find out about the head, the 116e was often mated to cosworth/holbay heads and used in competion, then again it could be straight out of a Cortina GT with twin 40s stuck on....
There are plenty of nice period FFords around for under 20k, Dulon, Merlyn etc, and they may well start getting invites to the more prestigious historic meetings soon but also just as much fun at hillcimb or Sprints. I'm sure the was a FFord race at the historic festival at Silverstone last year which is a really cheap way to get into a fantasic event!
The engine might be interesting if you could find out about the head, the 116e was often mated to cosworth/holbay heads and used in competion, then again it could be straight out of a Cortina GT with twin 40s stuck on....
Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 8th March 10:15
More images here: http://www.thornfalconclassics.com/cars-for-sale.a...
The chassis looks close to a BT15 as does the dash and wishbones. Considering over 50 were made its quite possible however the gearshift bracket and the roll hoop (could be an extension for a taller driver) just don't match along with everything else posted above.
Offer £15k you'll have a lot of fun and who knows with a full strip down you may uncover it's history.
The chassis looks close to a BT15 as does the dash and wishbones. Considering over 50 were made its quite possible however the gearshift bracket and the roll hoop (could be an extension for a taller driver) just don't match along with everything else posted above.
Offer £15k you'll have a lot of fun and who knows with a full strip down you may uncover it's history.
ecsrobin said:
More images here: http://www.thornfalconclassics.com/cars-for-sale.a...
The chassis looks close to a BT15 as does the dash and wishbones. Considering over 50 were made its quite possible however the gearshift bracket and the roll hoop (could be an extension for a taller driver) just don't match along with everything else posted above.
Offer £15k you'll have a lot of fun and who knows with a full strip down you may uncover it's history.
And the Drum brakes? surely not?The chassis looks close to a BT15 as does the dash and wishbones. Considering over 50 were made its quite possible however the gearshift bracket and the roll hoop (could be an extension for a taller driver) just don't match along with everything else posted above.
Offer £15k you'll have a lot of fun and who knows with a full strip down you may uncover it's history.
Im trying to find some good chassis shots of genuine brab's...
Oh and it HAS to have a race cam, I wouldnt be impressed if it sounded like a loud cortina!
Smegmium said:
So I was right with wishbones and dash 
Quite an intriguing car but yes it's value certainly goes down considerably.
Hi Smegmium, I'm not sure I can be all that much help. It does not look like the Brabhams I knew, but we did not get any of those here to my knowledge.
I owned FJ 3 62, the third "Brabham" built, & then drove a BT23A. This was the car Jack brought over for the Aust. GP in Perth. This was the Oz F1 at the time. We stayed with the old 2.5L formula, when the European stuff went to 3.0L, to gain access to the out dated cars at lower prices. This one was a slightly updated 66 world championship car, with a 2.5L version of the championship winning Repco V8 fitted.
These were chronologically either side of this car, & were similar to each other, but somewhat different to this car.
The gearshift was low, down beside the seat, with a distinct quadrant.
The front top wishbone had a wider base, & was longer.
The front anti roll bar was in front of the wishbone.
The top chassis rail was larger diameter, & not reinforced.
They both had alloy oil & water piping to the front of the car.
They both had fuel pressure & oil temperature gages.
The bodies were quite different, & both had perspex "windscreens" as the top part of the body.
The thing does not look "Brabham" to me, but they may have been a cost cutting exercise, with some of the old & current at the time F1 cars features reduced to make them more affordable.
In 67 we were still getting 115E engines from Cosworth & Holbay. We could build engines here with equal power, but it was critical to have either Cosworth or Holbay forged crank & rods, if the thing was going to stay together.
As any car this old is unlikely to be as manufactured you will probably have to set up ride heights spring rates & shock settings & angles yourself anyway. I would be most interested in the engine having all the forged gear. It should also have steel main bearing caps, & in the day the mains were tunnel bored 15 thou oversize after fitting these caps.
I would definitely want to strip it to check it does not have a standard Ford cast iron bottom end. This was standard procedure here in the day, as some owners substituted stock gear when selling.
Good luck with it. They are great fun to drive, & more responsive to suspension tuning & driver ability than later whinged beasts.
I owned FJ 3 62, the third "Brabham" built, & then drove a BT23A. This was the car Jack brought over for the Aust. GP in Perth. This was the Oz F1 at the time. We stayed with the old 2.5L formula, when the European stuff went to 3.0L, to gain access to the out dated cars at lower prices. This one was a slightly updated 66 world championship car, with a 2.5L version of the championship winning Repco V8 fitted.
These were chronologically either side of this car, & were similar to each other, but somewhat different to this car.
The gearshift was low, down beside the seat, with a distinct quadrant.
The front top wishbone had a wider base, & was longer.
The front anti roll bar was in front of the wishbone.
The top chassis rail was larger diameter, & not reinforced.
They both had alloy oil & water piping to the front of the car.
They both had fuel pressure & oil temperature gages.
The bodies were quite different, & both had perspex "windscreens" as the top part of the body.
The thing does not look "Brabham" to me, but they may have been a cost cutting exercise, with some of the old & current at the time F1 cars features reduced to make them more affordable.
In 67 we were still getting 115E engines from Cosworth & Holbay. We could build engines here with equal power, but it was critical to have either Cosworth or Holbay forged crank & rods, if the thing was going to stay together.
As any car this old is unlikely to be as manufactured you will probably have to set up ride heights spring rates & shock settings & angles yourself anyway. I would be most interested in the engine having all the forged gear. It should also have steel main bearing caps, & in the day the mains were tunnel bored 15 thou oversize after fitting these caps.
I would definitely want to strip it to check it does not have a standard Ford cast iron bottom end. This was standard procedure here in the day, as some owners substituted stock gear when selling.
Good luck with it. They are great fun to drive, & more responsive to suspension tuning & driver ability than later whinged beasts.
Thank you for that, always good to get someone who knows what they are on about on board :-D
I have just had a chat with the current owner, who isnt Paul Martin - Apparently he passed away a few years ago, the current owner being a friend of his who bought it from the family after he passed.
He is "Fairly" sure its a Brabham of some sort that was downgraded to its current spec to enter a different class, which could explain the drums. The engine doesnt appear to have any Cosworth internals, so could be a fairly standard engine.
That said he can't prove it is a Brabham, nor has he or a contact been able to find a chassis number.
He said "you could strip it and get the chassis dipped to try to find the chassis number, if it is a real brabham it's a £50 / £60k car" - ok, so why let it go for £20k if its only going to cost a few hunderd for a dip?
I cant help myself, I'm going to have to go and have a look (next week)
What do we think its REALLY worth in its current state? (Certainly not £20k)
I have just had a chat with the current owner, who isnt Paul Martin - Apparently he passed away a few years ago, the current owner being a friend of his who bought it from the family after he passed.
He is "Fairly" sure its a Brabham of some sort that was downgraded to its current spec to enter a different class, which could explain the drums. The engine doesnt appear to have any Cosworth internals, so could be a fairly standard engine.
That said he can't prove it is a Brabham, nor has he or a contact been able to find a chassis number.
He said "you could strip it and get the chassis dipped to try to find the chassis number, if it is a real brabham it's a £50 / £60k car" - ok, so why let it go for £20k if its only going to cost a few hunderd for a dip?
I cant help myself, I'm going to have to go and have a look (next week)
What do we think its REALLY worth in its current state? (Certainly not £20k)
Smegmium said:
He said "you could strip it and get the chassis dipped to try to find the chassis number, if it is a real brabham it's a £50 / £60k car" - ok, so why let it go for £20k if its only going to cost a few hundred for a dip?
I think this is the fundamental issue, either offer to pay for the dip or offer something commensurate with the info you have found. Its a nice enough chassis but sadly there doesnt seem to be much evidence to suggest the engine is anything that special. The hewland boxes are worth IRO £2k in good condition though and complete race cars do fetch a good sum however its only eligible for sprints/hillclimbs in that configuration and without a chassis it may be hard to confirm its eligibility for other championships.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff