Who takes their super saloon/estate/etc on track days?
Discussion
Just about every review of the latest (eg AMG)super-saloon, estate (eg RS6), even hotrod coupes (F-Type v8) etc, spends a fair bit of time pirouetting around a track with smokey powerslides (Top Gear esp), banging on about how exploitable the power is, how easy it is to slide, and so on. Got me thinking last night watching Clarkson ruin a set of tyres on the F-Type... what proportion of owner would ever take it on a track?
I haven't done a track day for a couple of years, but I'm struggling to recall lots of nearly-new 500bhp super saloons/estates being used? Is not the average track day a mix of older tricked up cars, lightweight specials (C7, Atoms etc) with the odd Scooby/GTR etc? Does anyone spending best part of £80k on an approaching 2-tonne bahn-stormer, take it round the track?
I haven't done a track day for a couple of years, but I'm struggling to recall lots of nearly-new 500bhp super saloons/estates being used? Is not the average track day a mix of older tricked up cars, lightweight specials (C7, Atoms etc) with the odd Scooby/GTR etc? Does anyone spending best part of £80k on an approaching 2-tonne bahn-stormer, take it round the track?
I've never tracked my XFR-S and don't plan to.
£1400 for a set of tyres which will get shredded on a car this big and heavy, plus track day insurance costs and of course, the real reason you never see expensive new "super saloons" on track is because of fear of warranty implications.
I certainly don't think of mine as a super saloon. I think that's for people who take themselves far too seriously. Mine is just our family car, albeit a relatively quick one.
£1400 for a set of tyres which will get shredded on a car this big and heavy, plus track day insurance costs and of course, the real reason you never see expensive new "super saloons" on track is because of fear of warranty implications.
I certainly don't think of mine as a super saloon. I think that's for people who take themselves far too seriously. Mine is just our family car, albeit a relatively quick one.
I've never seen them at track days. I guess this is for a few reasons. Cost of tyres and brakes. Wear rate on tyres and brakes. Effectiveness of brakes after a few laps. Often the electronics don't seem to like it and throw up a wobbly. And, combined with all this, looking in your mirror to realise a cheap French hatchback with a bit of work done to it is pushing for you to move over. And risk/cost. Track insurance isn't that cheap, and you wouldn't want to drive a pricey car without it.
That's my understanding. Others may feel otherwise - let's hear it.
That's my understanding. Others may feel otherwise - let's hear it.
Quite aside from the cost of consumables and the risk, tracking a big, heavy car that's not so easy to see out of is probably not all that much fun... unless you have your own runway or the track to yourself. I saw a teenager and his dad with a mk1 MX5 that they'd fitted a roll hoop and a supercharger to, having an absolute blast at one day - and I bet it was cheap as chips in comparison...
I think a lot of it has to do with the cost of consumables and the risk of ending up in a wall. Most track day insurance I have seen doesn't cover damage to your car, only 3rd party damage, and even then the insurance might only cover injuries to others or yourself.
I have seen quite a few quick cars at track days like 911 turbos, BMW M3s and M5s, AMG C63, Lotus Exige, etc. but 90% of the time they are one of the slowest things on the track. The driver's are likely just being extremely cautious with their pride and joy but I often wonder why they show up at all when a standard MX-5 is blowing by them.
On my last track day though I saw a guy in an early 2000s white Audi A8 4.2 having the time of his life. I imagined he was listening to classical music whilst trying to keep up with the slower cars. It was hilarious.
I have seen quite a few quick cars at track days like 911 turbos, BMW M3s and M5s, AMG C63, Lotus Exige, etc. but 90% of the time they are one of the slowest things on the track. The driver's are likely just being extremely cautious with their pride and joy but I often wonder why they show up at all when a standard MX-5 is blowing by them.
On my last track day though I saw a guy in an early 2000s white Audi A8 4.2 having the time of his life. I imagined he was listening to classical music whilst trying to keep up with the slower cars. It was hilarious.
Driving on a track requires skills that most of us just haven't got. Yes you can acquire those skills to a point, but not something you want to put to the test in your pride and joy. I'd have a go on an empty track but who wants to be overtaken by someone in a Clio thereby proving to you your lack of ability. I would expect everyone would be very amused if some 500 BHP monster was getting lapped by everyone. Much better to strip out an old 3 series and rag the hell out of it.
ewand said:
Just about every review of the latest (eg AMG)super-saloon, estate (eg RS6), even hotrod coupes (F-Type v8) etc, spends a fair bit of time pirouetting around a track with smokey powerslides (Top Gear esp), banging on about how exploitable the power is, how easy it is to slide, and so on. Got me thinking last night watching Clarkson ruin a set of tyres on the F-Type... what proportion of owner would ever take it on a track?
Too right, no one goes anywhere near a track with the majority of cars that TG feature sliding all over the place. I'm at the stage now where I simply don't give a s
t if a car car be run around an air strip smoking it's tyres all over the place as it isn't in any way representative of typical track driving, typical daily driving or show what is possible within the average driver's ability. No doubt there are people who believe that drifting is the only way to demonstrate a car's handling ability??A friend's father took his almost new Daimler Super 8 on track a few years ago. Cooked the brakes after 2 laps, hasn't ventured back since 
I've seen a few big saloons on track, with varying degrees of success, it's always a treat to be overtaken by an AMG V8 at full chat
Changing the topic slightly, I took my Fiesta on track when it was 3 months old. I maintain that there is no better way to find how your car handles towards the edge of adhesion, but all day I was worried about what might happen should I bin it, or if someone were to hit me (a £400 Puma was the answer to that, still epic fun but without the worry, that's another story). It isn't fun having to constantly keep an eye on some of the dubious drivers around you, so I can see it becoming tiresome rather than fun.
I've seen a few big saloons on track, with varying degrees of success, it's always a treat to be overtaken by an AMG V8 at full chat Changing the topic slightly, I took my Fiesta on track when it was 3 months old. I maintain that there is no better way to find how your car handles towards the edge of adhesion, but all day I was worried about what might happen should I bin it, or if someone were to hit me (a £400 Puma was the answer to that, still epic fun but without the worry, that's another story). It isn't fun having to constantly keep an eye on some of the dubious drivers around you, so I can see it becoming tiresome rather than fun.
To get a feel for the way your car handles, I'd really recommend an airfield day like http://carlimits.com/script/viewEvents.php?type=ai... - there's quite a lot of hanging about between activity, so it does mean the car won't get trashed, though your tyres might get a good scrubbing. It's a lot cheaper than a track day too, and very little risk of hitting anything...
The relevance of testing this type of car on circuits is not that the average owner - or indeed any owner - is really expected to take it there, but that it's impossible (or incredibly imprudent at best) to properly assess performance anywhere else. All of these cars are incredibly capable, so much so that you'd really struggle to get under their skin on the road without taking some unacceptable risks, so track testing is the only way to properly understand them. You'd then hope that how the car behaves at or beyond the limit in track testing will give you a good idea of its character and the depth of its development.
Whether the average buyer is remotely interested and would ever find out the difference in handling between an F-Type and an RS4 is an entirely different question.. but no, you certainly don't see many on track days, for the reasons people have already outlined.
Whether the average buyer is remotely interested and would ever find out the difference in handling between an F-Type and an RS4 is an entirely different question.. but no, you certainly don't see many on track days, for the reasons people have already outlined.
aka_kerrly said:
Too right, no one goes anywhere near a track with the majority of cars that TG feature sliding all over the place.
I'm at the stage now where I simply don't give a st if a car car be run around an air strip smoking it's tyres all over the place as it isn't in any way representative of typical track driving, typical daily driving or show what is possible within the average driver's ability. No doubt there are people who believe that drifting is the only way to demonstrate a car's handling ability??
If you sideways at every bend TG style, then I think you would be black flagged. I've done a few trackdays and if memory serves that was the rules. I'm at the stage now where I simply don't give a s
t if a car car be run around an air strip smoking it's tyres all over the place as it isn't in any way representative of typical track driving, typical daily driving or show what is possible within the average driver's ability. No doubt there are people who believe that drifting is the only way to demonstrate a car's handling ability??The last one I did was in my bosses Nissan GTR and we got lapped by some pretty dated machinery. However, it was (and still is) the fastest car I've driven and there was no way I was taking it anywhere near its limits for obvious reasons.
I think you would need to have pretty deep pockets.
I am not sure I could have afforded to take my C63 on a track, it's just too heavy for track work and as already mentioned would nail the tyres and brakes. Can't imagine I would get too many laps without needing to fill up either!
I plan to take track days seriously in the next few years, but will be finding something light <1000kg and with 180-200bhp for fun. Alternatively I might look at going to a Honda S2000 (had two in years gone by) and that would prove cheap to run.
I am not sure I could have afforded to take my C63 on a track, it's just too heavy for track work and as already mentioned would nail the tyres and brakes. Can't imagine I would get too many laps without needing to fill up either!
I plan to take track days seriously in the next few years, but will be finding something light <1000kg and with 180-200bhp for fun. Alternatively I might look at going to a Honda S2000 (had two in years gone by) and that would prove cheap to run.
In the UK, once they get their £80-£100K car on track, they realise how they could lose the lot by binning it, or by having it bashed by someone in a spinning Mx5 etc..
So if they enjoyed the 'idea of track days', they go away, think about what they saw, and come back with a cheaper track day car that cost as much as they can affort to lose.
or, they restrict them selves to owners only events where evryone is worried about binning £80-£100k.
One thing, I have noticed over the years, is how much more/how many more expensive cars you see at the ring.
So if they enjoyed the 'idea of track days', they go away, think about what they saw, and come back with a cheaper track day car that cost as much as they can affort to lose.
or, they restrict them selves to owners only events where evryone is worried about binning £80-£100k.
One thing, I have noticed over the years, is how much more/how many more expensive cars you see at the ring.
I haven't seen a big car on a regular track car once yet to date been on 4 the last one being yesterday at rockingham the other 3 at llandow.
Ive seen one 360 going around llandow which is way to small for it and was being overtaken by supercharged mx5 etc.
Yesterday was the first time out on a bigger track was expecting to see some higher end cars on track but apart from 1 noble which left by 1pm a evo8 and a few prototype lm type cars the rest was a mix or French hatches, loads of new minis, 10 mx5 me being in one, lotus elise, civics etc.
Just after lunch it started to rain I went straight out with my mates mx5 stock with a welded diff and was overtaking much quicker cars that were taking it easy main reason being the car I was driving is going to be used for drifting hence the welded diff (was meant to take my exocet) so if the worst did happen it doesn't make a difference to us.
Ive seen one 360 going around llandow which is way to small for it and was being overtaken by supercharged mx5 etc.
Yesterday was the first time out on a bigger track was expecting to see some higher end cars on track but apart from 1 noble which left by 1pm a evo8 and a few prototype lm type cars the rest was a mix or French hatches, loads of new minis, 10 mx5 me being in one, lotus elise, civics etc.
Just after lunch it started to rain I went straight out with my mates mx5 stock with a welded diff and was overtaking much quicker cars that were taking it easy main reason being the car I was driving is going to be used for drifting hence the welded diff (was meant to take my exocet) so if the worst did happen it doesn't make a difference to us.
Pentoman said:
looking in your mirror to realise a cheap French hatchback with a bit of work done to it is pushing for you to move over.
This!Here is an RS6 holding up a 106 Rallye. The Audi seems to be struggling in the bends but the driver is obviously too ashamed to let the 106 past.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SR9Nz_QTmu8
I've used my RS4 on the track a few times, seeing as between weekend cars at the moment
If you do one of the more expensive track days, you'll see quite a few cars of its type
That sounds snobbish, and that's not how I meant it, but generally the more expensive track days attract the more expensive cars, and invariably, this will include rs6's, m5's, big jag R's etc
I'm not sure I'd be so keen on tracking say a £90k m5 with a bunch of guys in clios or subarus, whereas I'd have no problem punting around spa or silverstone with guys in similar value cars as I'd expect (probably wrongly) that they'd take a bit more care not to crash into me
If you do one of the more expensive track days, you'll see quite a few cars of its type
That sounds snobbish, and that's not how I meant it, but generally the more expensive track days attract the more expensive cars, and invariably, this will include rs6's, m5's, big jag R's etc
I'm not sure I'd be so keen on tracking say a £90k m5 with a bunch of guys in clios or subarus, whereas I'd have no problem punting around spa or silverstone with guys in similar value cars as I'd expect (probably wrongly) that they'd take a bit more care not to crash into me
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