Seat Ibiza - Rejection advice needed!
Discussion
Hello,
War and peace - if you can't be bothered to read see the last two paragraphs.
In June 2015 I bought a brand new Seat Ibiza from a Seat Dealer on PCP Finance (Dealer supplied Finance through VWFS). The main reason - I've always had older cars but I was fed up of the maintenance requirements and the time I had to take out for preventative repairs that older cars require. A new car was going to cost me more money, short term and long term; but the privilege of a new, reliable and care free vehicle outweighed any financial impact. This was clearly outlined to the salesman.
Very early on in ownership I started experiencing issues with the car, please find a rough timeline below:
- 600 miles - Developed a light knocking sound
- 811 miles - x2 new front droplinks fitted under warranty.
- 1200 miles - Car started knocking again and suspension became very vocal.
- 1254 miles - x2 new steering arms fitted under warranty.
- On the drive home from having the steering arms replaced, The car felt 'off'
: The steering wasn't as precise and seemed to tram line depending on the road surface and condition. It was unstable on uneven/bumpy roads causing the car to change trajectory
: The steering wheel is twitching and jerking every time the car goes over small bumps / pot holes on the surface of the road, also causing the car to change trajectory.
: The knocking had not been fixed.
: The vehicle very rarely travels in a straight line when the steering wheel is pointed dead centre.
- I made a phone call to the dealers expressing my concerns where I was advised to keep driving as the new steering arms will loosen up.
- 1600 miles - The symptoms were still the same and knocking remained. I rebooked the car in and asked for an inspection and alignment check.
- 1949 miles - Car was returned to the dealer and A Seat Master Tech test drove/inspected and found no issues, I was assured tracking had been fixed when the steering arms were replaced and had been double checked this time. Car only had a 1.6 mile test drive!
- 1983 miles - Car went to a local independent, I explained my issues and requested an inspection/second opinion only. Within 5 minutes on a Hunter alignment machine it was noted the front wheels were toe out. The car was not rectified (for the avoidance of doubt the car was untouched mechanically) and I have a print out as evidence of the issue. I was also advised that the suspension top mounts should be checked and is a known TPI on Seat Ibiza's.
- A detailed complaint was sent to the Dealer Complaint Manager via e-mail; stating I am ready to reject the car if they can't fix it.
: I also listed other apparent faults. N/s Front bumper paint mismatch (I stupidly let this slide when I got the car) and gears are becoming difficult to engage when in traffic
- I was called by the service team asking to bring the car back in
- 2154 miles - The car was returned to the dealer where I was informed the Dealer does not have tracking equipment so the car was sent to an independent for tracking to be rectified. The car came back with a print out and the rear of the car was out of spec and was left out of spec. No other work was done by the dealer
- Although the cars steering feels better than before, the issues still remain.
- A further complaint was put into the Dealer via a reply to a customer satisfaction generic e-mail - I was advised the dealer principle would be in touch
- No response from the Dealer so I chased my complaint again
- I spoke to the Dealer Principle via phone call where I advised I have lost confidence in the car, in the dealer being able to rectify the issues and that I want to reject the car. We agreed the best option for all parties involved was to negotiate an amicable solution and get myself out of my current car and into an equivalent replacement - We discussed an equivalent spec Leon FR due to my lost faith in the Seat Ibiza. The Dealer Principle handed over to The Sales Manager and advised I'll receive a phone call with options.
- I received a phone call from Sales Manager stating he needed to get my Settlement Figure from VWFS before we can continue negotiations and to expect a phone call the following day.
- I called VWFS myself and obtained a settlement figure of £12,247.79
- I failed to receive a phone call the followed day, so I chased
- The Sales Manager called me the next day and advised he values my car at £9,500 and as a result there is too much negative equity to begin negotiations and there was nothing more the Dealer can do. I advised I'll have to take this further with Seat UK and the Finance Company.
- I complained to VWFS and Seat HQ
- Phone then rang off the hook from the Dealer apologising and offered me deal where they took my current car, settled the finance then started a new agreement on a Leon FR. They planned on using my original £2,000 deposit on the Leon, however the Leon is an unsold but brand new MY15 model (current is MY16) Leon FR - subtle tech changes.
- I asked for 24 hours to think and was advised sales manager was off the following day but he would hand over to business manager
- The following day I accept the offer only to be told by the business manager I now need to put in another £2,000 deposit!
- The Sales manager confirmed that I will lose my original deposit and I need to contribute a further £2,000
- Offer was declined and negotiations with the dealer have ended
Long story short - Brand new Seat on PCP finance, started with steering and suspension issues from 6 weeks / 600 miles. Dealers had the car back 4 times and the issue is still apparent. Complained twice and all negotitations with the Dealer have failed, I've very recently complained to VWFS and Seat UK. The offer the dealer has given me works out £4,112.81 more expensive, over a longer term for an older MY spec car than if I were to get my £2,000 Deposit back and go into a competitor dealer with a new order. Unreasonable in my opinion.
I would have accepted the deal without the extra £2,000 contribution and compromised by having the older MY car and financial penalty in the interest of not having to reject the car. But at this stage I feel all Dealer avenues have been exhausted and I just want out. I want to hand the car back, cancel the finance and get my £2,000 deposit back to go elsewhere - I'm not interested in compensation or costs to date, just a clean slate. Help! What do I do and where do I go from here?
War and peace - if you can't be bothered to read see the last two paragraphs.
In June 2015 I bought a brand new Seat Ibiza from a Seat Dealer on PCP Finance (Dealer supplied Finance through VWFS). The main reason - I've always had older cars but I was fed up of the maintenance requirements and the time I had to take out for preventative repairs that older cars require. A new car was going to cost me more money, short term and long term; but the privilege of a new, reliable and care free vehicle outweighed any financial impact. This was clearly outlined to the salesman.
Very early on in ownership I started experiencing issues with the car, please find a rough timeline below:
- 600 miles - Developed a light knocking sound
- 811 miles - x2 new front droplinks fitted under warranty.
- 1200 miles - Car started knocking again and suspension became very vocal.
- 1254 miles - x2 new steering arms fitted under warranty.
- On the drive home from having the steering arms replaced, The car felt 'off'
: The steering wasn't as precise and seemed to tram line depending on the road surface and condition. It was unstable on uneven/bumpy roads causing the car to change trajectory
: The steering wheel is twitching and jerking every time the car goes over small bumps / pot holes on the surface of the road, also causing the car to change trajectory.
: The knocking had not been fixed.
: The vehicle very rarely travels in a straight line when the steering wheel is pointed dead centre.
- I made a phone call to the dealers expressing my concerns where I was advised to keep driving as the new steering arms will loosen up.
- 1600 miles - The symptoms were still the same and knocking remained. I rebooked the car in and asked for an inspection and alignment check.
- 1949 miles - Car was returned to the dealer and A Seat Master Tech test drove/inspected and found no issues, I was assured tracking had been fixed when the steering arms were replaced and had been double checked this time. Car only had a 1.6 mile test drive!
- 1983 miles - Car went to a local independent, I explained my issues and requested an inspection/second opinion only. Within 5 minutes on a Hunter alignment machine it was noted the front wheels were toe out. The car was not rectified (for the avoidance of doubt the car was untouched mechanically) and I have a print out as evidence of the issue. I was also advised that the suspension top mounts should be checked and is a known TPI on Seat Ibiza's.
- A detailed complaint was sent to the Dealer Complaint Manager via e-mail; stating I am ready to reject the car if they can't fix it.
: I also listed other apparent faults. N/s Front bumper paint mismatch (I stupidly let this slide when I got the car) and gears are becoming difficult to engage when in traffic
- I was called by the service team asking to bring the car back in
- 2154 miles - The car was returned to the dealer where I was informed the Dealer does not have tracking equipment so the car was sent to an independent for tracking to be rectified. The car came back with a print out and the rear of the car was out of spec and was left out of spec. No other work was done by the dealer
- Although the cars steering feels better than before, the issues still remain.
- A further complaint was put into the Dealer via a reply to a customer satisfaction generic e-mail - I was advised the dealer principle would be in touch
- No response from the Dealer so I chased my complaint again
- I spoke to the Dealer Principle via phone call where I advised I have lost confidence in the car, in the dealer being able to rectify the issues and that I want to reject the car. We agreed the best option for all parties involved was to negotiate an amicable solution and get myself out of my current car and into an equivalent replacement - We discussed an equivalent spec Leon FR due to my lost faith in the Seat Ibiza. The Dealer Principle handed over to The Sales Manager and advised I'll receive a phone call with options.
- I received a phone call from Sales Manager stating he needed to get my Settlement Figure from VWFS before we can continue negotiations and to expect a phone call the following day.
- I called VWFS myself and obtained a settlement figure of £12,247.79
- I failed to receive a phone call the followed day, so I chased
- The Sales Manager called me the next day and advised he values my car at £9,500 and as a result there is too much negative equity to begin negotiations and there was nothing more the Dealer can do. I advised I'll have to take this further with Seat UK and the Finance Company.
- I complained to VWFS and Seat HQ
- Phone then rang off the hook from the Dealer apologising and offered me deal where they took my current car, settled the finance then started a new agreement on a Leon FR. They planned on using my original £2,000 deposit on the Leon, however the Leon is an unsold but brand new MY15 model (current is MY16) Leon FR - subtle tech changes.
- I asked for 24 hours to think and was advised sales manager was off the following day but he would hand over to business manager
- The following day I accept the offer only to be told by the business manager I now need to put in another £2,000 deposit!
- The Sales manager confirmed that I will lose my original deposit and I need to contribute a further £2,000
- Offer was declined and negotiations with the dealer have ended
Long story short - Brand new Seat on PCP finance, started with steering and suspension issues from 6 weeks / 600 miles. Dealers had the car back 4 times and the issue is still apparent. Complained twice and all negotitations with the Dealer have failed, I've very recently complained to VWFS and Seat UK. The offer the dealer has given me works out £4,112.81 more expensive, over a longer term for an older MY spec car than if I were to get my £2,000 Deposit back and go into a competitor dealer with a new order. Unreasonable in my opinion.
I would have accepted the deal without the extra £2,000 contribution and compromised by having the older MY car and financial penalty in the interest of not having to reject the car. But at this stage I feel all Dealer avenues have been exhausted and I just want out. I want to hand the car back, cancel the finance and get my £2,000 deposit back to go elsewhere - I'm not interested in compensation or costs to date, just a clean slate. Help! What do I do and where do I go from here?
Edited by EnthusiastOwned on Saturday 7th November 10:59
Buster73 said:
reading between the lines I suggest you're looking for problems to back your case up for rejecting the car , the faults you've found with your car are not insurmountable and do not warrant rejecting the car .
imho.
By the way it's war and peace.
Honestly! The OP has bought a new car, has various problems with it (the thing won't go into gear properly and won't drive in a straight line), the dealer hasn't fixed, he's being told different things by different people on different days and you'd be happy with that would you? When he's finally told they'll swap it for no extra cost (which must mean an admission by them that these are problems he shouldn't be having to deal with??), they change the deal the next day!!imho.
By the way it's war and peace.
Liquid Tuna said:
Honestly! The OP has bought a new car, has various problems with it (the thing won't go into gear properly and won't drive in a straight line), the dealer hasn't fixed, he's being told different things by different people on different days and you'd be happy with that would you? When he's finally told they'll swap it for no extra cost (which must mean an admission by them that these are problems he shouldn't be having to deal with??), they change the deal the next day!!
I stand by what I posted , none of those problems cannot be sorted , it does not warrant a new car.Thanks for the responses guys.
I'm not looking for issues per say, although after the 2nd visit I couldn't help but to be more acute to them, understandably. The cars had issues within 6 weeks of owning and 600 miles of use, of course I'm going t be more sensitive of further issues. I've done more mileage and spent more time in the car being faulty than working as a new car should. They've had it back 4 times and the issue is still there - how many chances can you warrant someone to have, especially a professional? Not that it matters anyway, as they are refusing to do anything else. SO what other choice do I have other than live with it?
I believe the rear can be adjusted via rear axle movement and shims. Either way, the tracking I feel is the least of my problems with the car - I've just highlighted it as I feel this is my best cause for rejecting as I have evidence the dealer returned my 'fixed' car back to me with a print out showing otherwise. Not very smart of them really.
I'm not looking for issues per say, although after the 2nd visit I couldn't help but to be more acute to them, understandably. The cars had issues within 6 weeks of owning and 600 miles of use, of course I'm going t be more sensitive of further issues. I've done more mileage and spent more time in the car being faulty than working as a new car should. They've had it back 4 times and the issue is still there - how many chances can you warrant someone to have, especially a professional? Not that it matters anyway, as they are refusing to do anything else. SO what other choice do I have other than live with it?
I believe the rear can be adjusted via rear axle movement and shims. Either way, the tracking I feel is the least of my problems with the car - I've just highlighted it as I feel this is my best cause for rejecting as I have evidence the dealer returned my 'fixed' car back to me with a print out showing otherwise. Not very smart of them really.
Edited by EnthusiastOwned on Saturday 7th November 11:14
It all sounds like a recipe for a major headache! Any option of getting the car checked out by a decent independent garage/mechanic as it sounds like there can only be a certain few parts causing the issues?
It may be obvious, but duff tyres can cause more significant issues than expected in terms of causing the car to pull or track badly.
It may be obvious, but duff tyres can cause more significant issues than expected in terms of causing the car to pull or track badly.
Hang on, why when the tracking place saw the front was toeing out, did they not just adjust it? 3 min job when all the gear is hooked up as it was?
Top mounts woudl tbe the first thign I thought of, but so early in its life? Are they not sure its not a loose undertray or exhaust shield etc? More chance of that than a duff top mount or suspension bush.
Isntead of wasting your money on a change, surely just try investing 50 quid a full alignment and see if it is fixed. If it isnt, use the fact you've go to that length in your negotiation to reject it.
Top mounts woudl tbe the first thign I thought of, but so early in its life? Are they not sure its not a loose undertray or exhaust shield etc? More chance of that than a duff top mount or suspension bush.
Isntead of wasting your money on a change, surely just try investing 50 quid a full alignment and see if it is fixed. If it isnt, use the fact you've go to that length in your negotiation to reject it.
Edited by s3fella on Saturday 7th November 15:11
That big long story look impressive, but there isn't actually a lot detail of how long the car spent off the road
If it had spent several weeks in the garage and still not been sorted, you might be justified in trying to reject it
but if it's only spent a few days in the garage, regardless if that's all in one go, or spread across a number of visits, you have not even come close to giving them a reasonable amount of time to fix it, a rejection is completely unjustified and would almost certainly not succeed
If it had spent several weeks in the garage and still not been sorted, you might be justified in trying to reject it
but if it's only spent a few days in the garage, regardless if that's all in one go, or spread across a number of visits, you have not even come close to giving them a reasonable amount of time to fix it, a rejection is completely unjustified and would almost certainly not succeed
vrsmxtb said:
It all sounds like a recipe for a major headache! Any option of getting the car checked out by a decent independent garage/mechanic as it sounds like there can only be a certain few parts causing the issues?
It may be obvious, but duff tyres can cause more significant issues than expected in terms of causing the car to pull or track badly.
A huge headache! That's why I was trying to negotiate and was prepared to take a £2k hit. I think that might be the next option, either that or try a different dealer. It may be obvious, but duff tyres can cause more significant issues than expected in terms of causing the car to pull or track badly.
s3fella said:
Hang on, why when the tracking place saw the front was toeing out, did they not just adjust it? 3 min job when all the gear is hooked up as it was?
Top mounts woudl tbe the first thign I thought of, but so early in its life? Are they not sure its not a loose undertray or exhaust shield etc? More chance of that than a duff top mount or suspension bush.
Isntead of wasting your money on a change, surely just try investing 50 quid a full alignment and see if it is fixed. If it isnt, use the fact you've go to that length in your negotiation to reject it.
Because at the time the of the alignment check I instructed the independent not to change anything. The second someone gets involved with another's work it opens too many possibilities of accusations. The Dealers natural response will be that the independent broke it. I have to give the current dealer reasonable time and attempts to rectify before going else where. Top mounts woudl tbe the first thign I thought of, but so early in its life? Are they not sure its not a loose undertray or exhaust shield etc? More chance of that than a duff top mount or suspension bush.
Isntead of wasting your money on a change, surely just try investing 50 quid a full alignment and see if it is fixed. If it isnt, use the fact you've go to that length in your negotiation to reject it.
Edited by s3fella on Saturday 7th November 15:11
Top mounts for me too, and I've been advised by an ex-Seat tech that top mounts are a TPI (known issue).
daveinhampshire said:
Go back to the dealer and ask for another branch to look at it. Once it's fixed get on and enjoy the car, entering until battles over what are minor issues really isn't worth the grey hair. I'd prob squeeze some free servicing out of them if I was in a particular grump about it.
I agree about the grey hair, but I have honestly lost all faith in the car now. I'll forever have that niggle in the back of my head. It's my first new car and the whole experience has been tarnished. I'm happy for another dealer to look at it and I have recommended Seat UK arrange this for me. As above, I had to give the dealer reasonable attempts for them to rectify.
ging84 said:
That big long story look impressive, but there isn't actually a lot detail of how long the car spent off the road
If it had spent several weeks in the garage and still not been sorted, you might be justified in trying to reject it
but if it's only spent a few days in the garage, regardless if that's all in one go, or spread across a number of visits, you have not even come close to giving them a reasonable amount of time to fix it, a rejection is completely unjustified and would almost certainly not succeed
I respectfully disagree and Parliament does too. The Consumer Rights Act 2015 clearly states that dealers have one chance to repair or replace the car; after that, buyers are entitled to a full or partial refund. This is to stop numerous unnecessary re-visits. How long they have the car doesn't come into it. If it had spent several weeks in the garage and still not been sorted, you might be justified in trying to reject it
but if it's only spent a few days in the garage, regardless if that's all in one go, or spread across a number of visits, you have not even come close to giving them a reasonable amount of time to fix it, a rejection is completely unjustified and would almost certainly not succeed
Please hep me understand how having the car on 4 separate occasions is not a reasonable amount of time to fix it? I practically begged the dealers to keep the car longer when they failed to find any issues. The fact of the matter here is the dealer just isn't interested, so what do I do? Keep hassling them to fix my car for the next 12 months? You have to cut a line somewhere. Hassling for 3.5 months and 4 trips is enough for me - The dealer has ended negotiations with an unreasonable offer and is unwilling to look at my car again, I'd say rejection is justified.
surveyor said:
Involve Seat UK. Take car to a different dealer who can fix it....
ETA. Allow time for steering arms to bed in. Like that! - Presumably someone is driving them around the factory when new then...
I've asked Seat UK for a different dealer. ETA. Allow time for steering arms to bed in. Like that! - Presumably someone is driving them around the factory when new then...
When I went in the second time I performed a road test with a Seat technician so I could show him the noise, before we even got out of the car park he was moving the steering back and forth and explained straight away that steering arm balljoints on these cars have an incorrect preload from the manufacturer and is a known issue. 30ton of pressure compaied to the 12ton it should have (or something like that) so they need to bed in, and sometimes they weaken too quickly.
EnthusiastOwned said:
I respectfully disagree and Parliament does too. The Consumer Rights Act 2015 clearly states that dealers have one chance to repair or replace the car; after that, buyers are entitled to a full or partial refund. This is to stop numerous unnecessary re-visits. How long they have the car doesn't come into it.
Hang on.You might want to double check.
According to Which:
http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/problem/wha...
They tend to be pretty hot on this topic but are fallible.
When did you purchase the goods?
The date you made the purchase decides which legislation applies.
- If you purchased the goods from 1 October 2015 then the Consumer Rights Act applies.
- If you purchased the goods on or before 30 September 2015 then the Sale of Goods Act will apply.
Vaud said:
Hang on.
You might want to double check.
According to Which:
http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/problem/wha...
They tend to be pretty hot on this topic but are fallible.
When did you purchase the goods?
The date you made the purchase decides which legislation applies.
Ahh, my mistake; I thought the Consumer Rights act took over the Sales of goods act. Thanks for the heads up! You might want to double check.
According to Which:
http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/problem/wha...
They tend to be pretty hot on this topic but are fallible.
When did you purchase the goods?
The date you made the purchase decides which legislation applies.
- If you purchased the goods from 1 October 2015 then the Consumer Rights Act applies.
- If you purchased the goods on or before 30 September 2015 then the Sale of Goods Act will apply.
June 2015 - I believe the main difference in the acts is that with the Consumer Rights Act you can return for a full refund if a product fails within 30 days.
EnthusiastOwned said:
I respectfully disagree and Parliament does too. The Consumer Rights Act 2015 clearly states that dealers have one chance to repair or replace the car; after that, buyers are entitled to a full or partial refund. This is to stop numerous unnecessary re-visits. How long they have the car doesn't come into it.
It's not quite as simple as that, even if you ignore that you bought it before those rules came into effectYou maybe entitled to reject, if the goods don't conform 'after 1 repair'
repair is given a specific meaning, it does not simply mean a single visit to the workshop, but an actual fix, if that fix takes multi diagnostics and a few different parts replaced on different occasions to finally complete the fix, it's still 1 repair, and on something as big and complex as a car that may well be reasonable, especially if it's not left the car off the road the whole time.
If the new rules were that if anything is still wrong after 1 spannering and you could reject the car, the whole industry would be in melt down.
EnthusiastOwned said:
Ahh, my mistake; I thought the Consumer Rights act took over the Sales of goods act. Thanks for the heads up!
June 2015 - I believe the main difference in the acts is that with the Consumer Rights Act you can return for a full refund if a product fails within 30 days.
Not quite. As I understand it, it is not for "any fault". If the stereo failed, but the car still drives, then the product is still fulfilling it's primary purpose - as a car that goes from A to B, and so you would not be entitled to return. IANAL.June 2015 - I believe the main difference in the acts is that with the Consumer Rights Act you can return for a full refund if a product fails within 30 days.
Can you imagine how many cars could be returned if it was any failure? Rear wash/wipe? Sat/nav needing a new disc? Oil cap cracked?
Moot in this case, anyway.
bearman68 said:
Time to drive in into the dealers on a busy saturday, park the car in a very visible spot, and complain long and loudly about their service, the car, the s
t they have given you etc etc..
Not unsympathetic BTW
Certainly a strategy to consider, but has risks. t they have given you etc etc..Not unsympathetic BTW
The dealer may say "all further communication is via our legal team".
Sitting in the dealership and being calm, firm but audible until you see the Dealer Principal would be a better next step. Try to make an appointment. Never shout.
bearman68 said:
Time to drive in into the dealers on a busy saturday, park the car in a very visible spot, and complain long and loudly about their service, the car, the st they have given you etc etc..
Not unsympathetic BTW
People love the idea of doing this, but almost no one ever does, and because it's so unusual, anyone witnessing it will just think nut job and not give it a second thought.t they have given you etc etc..Not unsympathetic BTW
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