Moving 2 vehicles on a 3.5ton rig.
Discussion
Another pub conversation between myself and a ex-work mate.
Basically ex-work mate is wanting to start his own vehicle transportation business (he is a HGV driver currently). Mainly to serve race tracks around Europe. So his idea was to operate a beavertail converted LWB sprinter (Local company builds them with a aluminium frame and ~1.65ton load weight depending on the van) with a small sleeper bed on the back of the cab (you can get these made out of fiberglass,probably takes the overall load weight down to 1.5ish when you include living space gubbings). This avoids the hoops you need to jump through for a 7.5ton+ operators licence. However the Sprinter (A personal favourite of ours since the company we worked for operate them as their light van fleet & they are great rigs, I speak from experience of spending 6-8 hours a day in one
) also has a permitted gross train weight of 7000kg in its 3.5ton scew (with reinforced trailer coupling) and comes with some good engines for the job.
So his intention was to run one of these with a sub 1.5ton car (or probably any car knowing him, bloody eastern Europeans) on the bed whilst also running a 3.5ton capable covered trailer and basically do runs between England and Germany (nordschleife) whilst on season and work full time as a truck driver whilst off season.
My only argument (he asked me since he has only been living within the EU for a year or so), is that you very rarely see 3.5ton beavertails towing another car along with them so Id say there's probably some piece of legislation restricting them or other people would be doing it. Just wondering if any of the more experienced legal/driving types here would know what kind of problems he would run into with this kind of thing. Im asking on his behalf because he is a lurker on these forums and cant remember his account details.
PS: Not sure what forum this should be put in to, Was split between SP&L, Commercial Break & GG. If a mod thinks its more appropriate elsewhere feel free to move.
Basically ex-work mate is wanting to start his own vehicle transportation business (he is a HGV driver currently). Mainly to serve race tracks around Europe. So his idea was to operate a beavertail converted LWB sprinter (Local company builds them with a aluminium frame and ~1.65ton load weight depending on the van) with a small sleeper bed on the back of the cab (you can get these made out of fiberglass,probably takes the overall load weight down to 1.5ish when you include living space gubbings). This avoids the hoops you need to jump through for a 7.5ton+ operators licence. However the Sprinter (A personal favourite of ours since the company we worked for operate them as their light van fleet & they are great rigs, I speak from experience of spending 6-8 hours a day in one
) also has a permitted gross train weight of 7000kg in its 3.5ton scew (with reinforced trailer coupling) and comes with some good engines for the job. So his intention was to run one of these with a sub 1.5ton car (or probably any car knowing him, bloody eastern Europeans
) on the bed whilst also running a 3.5ton capable covered trailer and basically do runs between England and Germany (nordschleife) whilst on season and work full time as a truck driver whilst off season.My only argument (he asked me since he has only been living within the EU for a year or so), is that you very rarely see 3.5ton beavertails towing another car along with them so Id say there's probably some piece of legislation restricting them or other people would be doing it. Just wondering if any of the more experienced legal/driving types here would know what kind of problems he would run into with this kind of thing. Im asking on his behalf because he is a lurker on these forums and cant remember his account details
.PS: Not sure what forum this should be put in to, Was split between SP&L, Commercial Break & GG. If a mod thinks its more appropriate elsewhere feel free to move.
fttm said:
Can't see how you can pull 3.5 tons behind a Sprinter ? Gross train weights etc
There is a scew of the 3.5ton sprinter rig with a 3.5ton tow weight and 7000kg GTW. With an optional towing reinforcement. It also comes with numerous engines which would have no problem keeping this combination at 80-100km/h.Ive just realised some scews of the iveco daily and ford transit also come with this capability.
A 3.5ton Sprinter chassis cab with the world lightest body on these days is going to come in at 2,100kg. That leaves a payload of 1,400kg.
Allow 150kg for driver and diesel and your payload is now 1,250kg.
Fibreglass sleeping pod will bring it down to 1,200kg payload.
Now if he's towing a trailer, the nose weight of that will be 100kg.
So he's left with a payload of 1,100kg on the truck. That's not a great deal and shows why people aren't using them for towing. An acquaintance was recently fined £1,500 for overloading a 3.5ton VW Crafter although it was his second offence.
Allow 150kg for driver and diesel and your payload is now 1,250kg.
Fibreglass sleeping pod will bring it down to 1,200kg payload.
Now if he's towing a trailer, the nose weight of that will be 100kg.
So he's left with a payload of 1,100kg on the truck. That's not a great deal and shows why people aren't using them for towing. An acquaintance was recently fined £1,500 for overloading a 3.5ton VW Crafter although it was his second offence.
Is a good combo & dunno why you've not seen many are tons around, but as said weights are restricted on the unit, need as light a build as possible- deck, winch, ramps etc the kfs all alloy rear chassis& deck builds do give more payload, but on a fiat *ugh* chassis & fwd still all still needs tacho & o licence just as per a larger truck but I assume he is aware of that.
If he's a HGV driver shouldn't he already have a license permitting him to drive vehicles over 7.5 tons? Either way a proper truck seems like a better idea if he's taking cars to race tracks, his customers will want him to take spares and tools so they can just fly over. I don't know how much he has to invest but he should look towards getting a car transporter trailer if he's serious. Carrying half a dozen or more cars at a time has to be more profitable than carrying one or two.
iguana said:
Is a good combo & dunno why you've not seen many are tons around, but as said weights are restricted on the unit, need as light a build as possible- deck, winch, ramps etc the kfs all alloy rear chassis& deck builds do give more payload, but on a fiat *ugh* chassis & fwd still all still needs tacho & o licence just as per a larger truck but I assume he is aware of that.
CAElites friend here. Hm I drive up and down the UK and very rarely see them with 2 cars on. And when they do they tend to be loaded with scrap sometimes in a manner of your picture below. Hadnt really looked into FWD chassis as they are less practical for hauling high loads over the rear wheels, I suppose they would allow for more load legally though due to reduced drivetrain weight (EU legislation is retarded). Wouldn't be opposed to running an Iveco/Fiat as I started my career in Dailies and Stralis's. It only seems to be the UK where they have bad reputation. Local company who fabricates aluminium beavertails says they can run up to 1.7ton loads with fuel. Not sure what van they are basing this maximum number off of as I have yet to enquire but I would be happy with a 1.5ton net load weight considering I would be dealing in mostly lightweight cars. Trailer would be able to haul anything heavier.Well aware of the tacho requirement for 3.5+ton gross train. Hold class 1 license.
EDLT said:
If he's a HGV driver shouldn't he already have a license permitting him to drive vehicles over 7.5 tons? Either way a proper truck seems like a better idea if he's taking cars to race tracks, his customers will want him to take spares and tools so they can just fly over. I don't know how much he has to invest but he should look towards getting a car transporter trailer if he's serious. Carrying half a dozen or more cars at a time has to be more profitable than carrying one or two.
Having truck over 3.5ton will require an operators license, which I do not meet the requirements for. 7.5ton rigs also cost a fortune to maintain and require far greater capital set up costs. I would be hoping for a sub £20k setup cost initially. Allowing for a new-ish converted 3.5ton rig and a high quality 3.5ton trailer. I would be intending to carry fuel and extra peripherals within the covered trailer as it allows for a higher paiload than the tractor unit. Checked out that KFS build you mentioned on the Ducato. Saw this picture on there website: (sorry quality)
That is pretty much my dream setup for the moment, capacity for 2 cars, KFS claims 1720kg bed capacity for there builds, subtract ~200kg for the sleeper box, curtainsides, tow ball and personal items gives 1.5ton on the bed which is enough (I would think have 2 tier pricing structure for cars of certain weight. Maxi body based Ducato allows 3000kg towing weight. So more than enough for substantial trailer. On trailer I would say 2ton for car, 700kg weight for trailer leaving ~300kg for liquids, tools etc.
Looks very smart too for business transporting, especially with livery curtains. My only worry is with FWD chassis of handling capabilities when loaded with ~6000kg. Fiat Ducato does allow 1850kg over the rear wheels which means that with intended load it is not breaking manufacturer recommendation but I would still worry about safe handling especially downhill into corners.
I will keep a lookout. Was intending to start buying assets this winter and start my business for summer next year. There is currently a KFS converted 2014 Ducato for sale for £18k which looks perfect. Also some older ones than what I am looking for as very cheap prices, much cheaper than the RWD Sprinters/Transits.
That is pretty much my dream setup for the moment, capacity for 2 cars, KFS claims 1720kg bed capacity for there builds, subtract ~200kg for the sleeper box, curtainsides, tow ball and personal items gives 1.5ton on the bed which is enough (I would think have 2 tier pricing structure for cars of certain weight. Maxi body based Ducato allows 3000kg towing weight. So more than enough for substantial trailer. On trailer I would say 2ton for car, 700kg weight for trailer leaving ~300kg for liquids, tools etc.
Looks very smart too for business transporting, especially with livery curtains. My only worry is with FWD chassis of handling capabilities when loaded with ~6000kg. Fiat Ducato does allow 1850kg over the rear wheels which means that with intended load it is not breaking manufacturer recommendation but I would still worry about safe handling especially downhill into corners.
I will keep a lookout. Was intending to start buying assets this winter and start my business for summer next year. There is currently a KFS converted 2014 Ducato for sale for £18k which looks perfect. Also some older ones than what I am looking for as very cheap prices, much cheaper than the RWD Sprinters/Transits.
As I said before you are not exempt from o licence with that set up for hire & reward, look it up also no way you would get the capacity you calculate on the unit with a pod & enclosed & driver.
Fwd isn't great on these but it copes, terrible traction in wet laden however especially towing, snow would be a joke, vs Sprinter single rear wheel laden & winter tyres on is epic. I'm an Iveco & Sprinter fan too, got both, but also a fwd on the fleet too. A/c a real bonus for EU summers, it's not so pleasant without & on older Iveco that's v rare, more common on others.
Fwd isn't great on these but it copes, terrible traction in wet laden however especially towing, snow would be a joke, vs Sprinter single rear wheel laden & winter tyres on is epic. I'm an Iveco & Sprinter fan too, got both, but also a fwd on the fleet too. A/c a real bonus for EU summers, it's not so pleasant without & on older Iveco that's v rare, more common on others.
ZX10R NIN said:
A guy I know runs a set up like you're describing but it's a 7000kg set up
-SNIP-
Or there's this set up but you don't really see these in the UK.
-SNIP-
That first setup, you mean GTV of 7000kg? It looks like a 3.5ton unit in the front. Plus aye that setup looks exactly what we where talking about, Think MF is just dreaming with the liveried curtained loadouts, they are perfect but just add so much weight for so little advantage (Your average curtainsider frame adds ~400kg to a chassis, a good beavertail should only add ~200kg).-SNIP-
Or there's this set up but you don't really see these in the UK.
-SNIP-
The 2nd image. The reason they are not popular is sub 7.5ton 5th wheel towing in the UK is a literal minefield. People get away with it using big American pickups towing 4ton+ campervans but thats not-for-profit so they are given a lot more leeway, trying to run something like that commercially looks like an absolute pain.
Also I didnt realise you needed an operators licence for a 3.5ton+ GTW towing rig, surely you could get around that by just keeping the tractor unit and trailer at different addresses?
.MJK 24 said:
A 3.5ton Sprinter chassis cab with the world lightest body on these days is going to come in at 2,100kg. That leaves a payload of 1,400kg.
Allow 150kg for driver and diesel and your payload is now 1,250kg.
Fibreglass sleeping pod will bring it down to 1,200kg payload.
Now if he's towing a trailer, the nose weight of that will be 100kg.
So he's left with a payload of 1,100kg on the truck. That's not a great deal and shows why people aren't using them for towing. An acquaintance was recently fined £1,500 for overloading a 3.5ton VW Crafter although it was his second offence.
Listen to this guy ^ he speaks sense about the weights and I'm a HGV driver myself. The weights quoted in your post for the curtain side prime mover and trailer are unrealistic and all that body does is simply add more weight not reduce it. If you see 1500kg payload legally with a full tank of fuel, pod, tackle and yourself I'll eat my metaphorical hat. But even if you do, that still limits you to carrying small cars as pretty much every modern family car and even a lot of small hatchbacks are over 1.5 tonne. Also worth noting that DVSA absolutely love pulling over vans and 4x4s with loaded vehicle trailers as 90% of them are driven by chancers or people unfamiliar with GVWs/tacho requirements and it's easy money for them dishing out fines. I will guarantee you will be stopped every time you pass a DVSA Allow 150kg for driver and diesel and your payload is now 1,250kg.
Fibreglass sleeping pod will bring it down to 1,200kg payload.
Now if he's towing a trailer, the nose weight of that will be 100kg.
So he's left with a payload of 1,100kg on the truck. That's not a great deal and shows why people aren't using them for towing. An acquaintance was recently fined £1,500 for overloading a 3.5ton VW Crafter although it was his second offence.
caelite said:
That first setup, you mean GTV of 7000kg? It looks like a 3.5ton unit in the front. Plus aye that setup looks exactly what we where talking about, Think MF is just dreaming with the liveried curtained loadouts, they are perfect but just add so much weight for so little advantage (Your average curtainsider frame adds ~400kg to a chassis, a good beavertail should only add ~200kg).
The 2nd image. The reason they are not popular is sub 7.5ton 5th wheel towing in the UK is a literal minefield. People get away with it using big American pickups towing 4ton+ campervans but thats not-for-profit so they are given a lot more leeway, trying to run something like that commercially looks like an absolute pain.
Also I didnt realise you needed an operators licence for a 3.5ton+ GTW towing rig, surely you could get around that by just keeping the tractor unit and trailer at different addresses?.
No it's not a 3.5ton he has a crew cab & can legally carry a 4x4/sprinter on the back & tow a trailer if they have one. Curtainsides are a no as you say due to the weight, his chassis weighs in at 2.6tons with all the fluids & kit, it's a flat bed as a tilt & slide would have cost him in kg's.The 2nd image. The reason they are not popular is sub 7.5ton 5th wheel towing in the UK is a literal minefield. People get away with it using big American pickups towing 4ton+ campervans but thats not-for-profit so they are given a lot more leeway, trying to run something like that commercially looks like an absolute pain.
Also I didnt realise you needed an operators licence for a 3.5ton+ GTW towing rig, surely you could get around that by just keeping the tractor unit and trailer at different addresses?
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