Discussion
So I have a bmw 640d, bought a tdi tuning chip, and the mechanics i think they installed it wrong, engine stuttered continiusly while plugged in, so we removed it
They surprise surprise said they didnt normally chip cars but rather remapped them
So I was wondering is remapping actually better, and should i return my TDI chip, and remap instead?
They surprise surprise said they didnt normally chip cars but rather remapped them
So I was wondering is remapping actually better, and should i return my TDI chip, and remap instead?
I'm no expert, but from what I understand those tuning boxes basically take in the readings and parameters, apply some percentage maths to it and spit out a modified signal to the ECU, telling it to add more fuel, air, boost, throttle etc ("if this, then that" kinda thing). Maybe the ecu has detected a code interference either through an erroneous bit of data or a voltage fluctuation or something.
A generic pre-made map does this at the source of the ECU by overwriting the original parameters.
The best solution would be a custom remap with a rolling road. This is where operator goes into ecu software and adjusts everything to your invidual car. This is the most expensive obviously.
When I looked at getting my car remapped i contacted my insurer for a quote and as it was a high percentage gain (circa 25%) they wouldn't insure it. I decided against it in the end anyway to protect the gearbox. I'm guessing on a 640D you could expect a circa 20% increase.
Worth bearing in mind though as if you need your insurance and they find an undeclared mod they could have your trousers down.
A generic pre-made map does this at the source of the ECU by overwriting the original parameters.
The best solution would be a custom remap with a rolling road. This is where operator goes into ecu software and adjusts everything to your invidual car. This is the most expensive obviously.
When I looked at getting my car remapped i contacted my insurer for a quote and as it was a high percentage gain (circa 25%) they wouldn't insure it. I decided against it in the end anyway to protect the gearbox. I'm guessing on a 640D you could expect a circa 20% increase.
Worth bearing in mind though as if you need your insurance and they find an undeclared mod they could have your trousers down.
WRT your experiences, perhaps have a quick read here
http://www.speedhunters.com/2020/04/project-thirty...
"I’ll refer to them simply as Terrible Disappointing Insufferable Tuning, which are random words that describe my experience and nothing to do with the actual name."
To the question asked, I don't think there's a cut and dried difference between plugging in a new ECU vs remapping the existing one, it may depend on specific cars which route is better. Either way you gain the ability to modify the engine behaviour under certain conditions to add more boost and fuel and thus make more power. I'd be looking on owners forums to see people's experiences with your specific car.
http://www.speedhunters.com/2020/04/project-thirty...
"I’ll refer to them simply as Terrible Disappointing Insufferable Tuning, which are random words that describe my experience and nothing to do with the actual name."
To the question asked, I don't think there's a cut and dried difference between plugging in a new ECU vs remapping the existing one, it may depend on specific cars which route is better. Either way you gain the ability to modify the engine behaviour under certain conditions to add more boost and fuel and thus make more power. I'd be looking on owners forums to see people's experiences with your specific car.
Ambleton said:
I'm no expert, but from what I understand those tuning boxes basically take in the readings and parameters, apply some percentage maths to it and spit out a modified signal to the ECU, telling it to add more fuel, air, boost, throttle etc ("if this, then that" kinda thing). Maybe the ecu has detected a code interference either through an erroneous bit of data or a voltage fluctuation or something.
A generic pre-made map does this at the source of the ECU by overwriting the original parameters.
It's also possible to completely physically replace the factory ECU with an aftermarket one, which gets you full freedom, although you have to either lose or re-implement all of the factory engine management features. This is common on older cars (Apexi, Emerald, etc), but I don't know if this is done as often with newer ones, I guess not or only for very heavily modified cars.A generic pre-made map does this at the source of the ECU by overwriting the original parameters.
Ambleton said:
I'm no expert, but from what I understand those tuning boxes basically take in the readings and parameters, apply some percentage maths to it and spit out a modified signal to the ECU, telling it to add more fuel, air, boost, throttle etc ("if this, then that" kinda thing). Maybe the ecu has detected a code interference either through an erroneous bit of data or a voltage fluctuation or something.
A generic pre-made map does this at the source of the ECU by overwriting the original parameters.
The best solution would be a custom remap with a rolling road. This is where operator goes into ecu software and adjusts everything to your invidual car. This is the most expensive obviously.
When I looked at getting my car remapped i contacted my insurer for a quote and as it was a high percentage gain (circa 25%) they wouldn't insure it. I decided against it in the end anyway to protect the gearbox. I'm guessing on a 640D you could expect a circa 20% increase.
Worth bearing in mind though as if you need your insurance and they find an undeclared mod they could have your trousers down.
the tdi kit cost 440, and the remap with rolling road they quoted as 250 including labourA generic pre-made map does this at the source of the ECU by overwriting the original parameters.
The best solution would be a custom remap with a rolling road. This is where operator goes into ecu software and adjusts everything to your invidual car. This is the most expensive obviously.
When I looked at getting my car remapped i contacted my insurer for a quote and as it was a high percentage gain (circa 25%) they wouldn't insure it. I decided against it in the end anyway to protect the gearbox. I'm guessing on a 640D you could expect a circa 20% increase.
Worth bearing in mind though as if you need your insurance and they find an undeclared mod they could have your trousers down.
Piggback boxes work by intercepting the signal sent to the boost and fuel controllers and then modifying the results before sending them on, in order to trick the car into thinking it needs to supply more air or fuel or boost depending on throttle position and various other parameters
A generic remap placed onto the existing ECU is overwriting the existing tables of data completely and replacing with its own. The maps are generic in that they are developed for the overall engine and will be not specifically aware that you have updated cold air induction kit and a catless downpipe etc. This can cause issues whereby the engine can run lean if you use the wrong octane petrol for example and the existing tables. Therefore they are no better than piggback ECUs
Really what you need is an individual map developed specifically for the car, suited to all other mods and the fuel you are using. This can be done by either road tuning using wideband datalogging and capture or alternatively on a dyno whereby the engine can be loaded under static conditions. This is the most expensive option due to the additional time and effort but is the safest and will gain more power right across the rev range.
A generic remap placed onto the existing ECU is overwriting the existing tables of data completely and replacing with its own. The maps are generic in that they are developed for the overall engine and will be not specifically aware that you have updated cold air induction kit and a catless downpipe etc. This can cause issues whereby the engine can run lean if you use the wrong octane petrol for example and the existing tables. Therefore they are no better than piggback ECUs
Really what you need is an individual map developed specifically for the car, suited to all other mods and the fuel you are using. This can be done by either road tuning using wideband datalogging and capture or alternatively on a dyno whereby the engine can be loaded under static conditions. This is the most expensive option due to the additional time and effort but is the safest and will gain more power right across the rev range.
itsnotarace said:
Piggback boxes work by intercepting the signal sent to the boost and fuel controllers and then modifying the results before sending them on, in order to trick the car into thinking it needs to supply more air or fuel or boost depending on throttle position and various other parameters
A generic remap placed onto the existing ECU is overwriting the existing tables of data completely and replacing with its own. The maps are generic in that they are developed for the overall engine and will be not specifically aware that you have updated cold air induction kit and a catless downpipe etc. This can cause issues whereby the engine can run lean if you use the wrong octane petrol for example and the existing tables. Therefore they are no better than piggback ECUs
Really what you need is an individual map developed specifically for the car, suited to all other mods and the fuel you are using. This can be done by either road tuning using wideband datalogging and capture or alternatively on a dyno whereby the engine can be loaded under static conditions. This is the most expensive option due to the additional time and effort but is the safest and will gain more power right across the rev range.
Is ECU remapping expensive, it seems chepaer than the tuning chips, i bought my chip for 440 pounds, and ecu remapping is on internet from 150-300 max?A generic remap placed onto the existing ECU is overwriting the existing tables of data completely and replacing with its own. The maps are generic in that they are developed for the overall engine and will be not specifically aware that you have updated cold air induction kit and a catless downpipe etc. This can cause issues whereby the engine can run lean if you use the wrong octane petrol for example and the existing tables. Therefore they are no better than piggback ECUs
Really what you need is an individual map developed specifically for the car, suited to all other mods and the fuel you are using. This can be done by either road tuning using wideband datalogging and capture or alternatively on a dyno whereby the engine can be loaded under static conditions. This is the most expensive option due to the additional time and effort but is the safest and will gain more power right across the rev range.
If I do an ECU remap it wont mess up with my servicing, and do I have to tell my insurance about it?
The last time I had an ECU tuned it was £350 +VAT for a full day on the rolling road, not including the ECU hardware itself which was £700
Yes, you are legally required to inform your insurance company about any modification
Yes you will void any manufacturer warranty for any item controlled by the ECU
Yes, you are legally required to inform your insurance company about any modification
Yes you will void any manufacturer warranty for any item controlled by the ECU
bkvader1993 said:
Is ECU remapping expensive, it seems chepaer than the tuning chips, i bought my chip for 440 pounds, and ecu remapping is on internet from 150-300 max?
If I do an ECU remap it wont mess up with my servicing, and do I have to tell my insurance about it?
The guys who offer this online are often, but not always, using a pre-made map and loading it onto your ECU, overwriting the existing parameters. They might go in afterwards and do a little bit of post tuning if they think its required - nothing wrong with it. I would suggest this is a much better way than a tuning box which essentially just trick the software into thinking something else is happening when it's not. The only slight benefit to a tuning box is you can add and remove as you like and swap between vehicles (after its been flashed with the corresponding software).If I do an ECU remap it wont mess up with my servicing, and do I have to tell my insurance about it?
Anything that adds performance will add more stress, so stuff will wear out quicker. Everything is usually designed "safe" so there will be a margin of fat, but if you increase torque/power a lot then everything takes more of a battering, especially the gearbox, diff, driveshafts etc, so ongoing servicing may increase in line with the additional wear on items.
Any modification away from factory standard fit items should be declared to your insurer. If you have an accident and they find your car has performance enhancing software onboard and it's not declared then they can technically have you as "uninsured", in which case your over the barrel without so much as courtesy lick. This goes for all re-maps, tuning boxes etc. Some insurance companies are pretty and list it without increasing the price, others have a pretty dim view on "performance mods" and you're labelled a boy racer and charge you accordingly.
bkvader1993 said:
Is ECU remapping expensive, it seems chepaer than the tuning chips, i bought my chip for 440 pounds, and ecu remapping is on internet from 150-300 max?
If I do an ECU remap it wont mess up with my servicing, and do I have to tell my insurance about it?
You spent £440 on a box with a resistor and a few other bits thrown in for looksIf I do an ECU remap it wont mess up with my servicing, and do I have to tell my insurance about it?
( As that's what a lot of these tuning boxes are)
Ambleton said:
The guys who offer this online are often, but not always, using a pre-made map and loading it onto your ECU, overwriting the existing parameters. They might go in afterwards and do a little bit of post tuning if they think its required - nothing wrong with it. I would suggest this is a much better way than a tuning box which essentially just trick the software into thinking something else is happening when it's not.
It does exactly the same thing. Changes one set of parameters for another. Neither are tuned to the specific car or mods.One downside to a reflashed ECU is that there is a danger the company will "brick" the ECU whereas a tuning box can be removed with little trace
Worth being specific on terminology here.
Remap can be separated into generic and custom. A generic map is basically an upload that works for your model of car. A custom map is your specific car on a rolling road as the mapper changes it for your specific requirements. The latter is typically better but more expensive. Worth noting some places sell 'custom' remaps that are generic ECU flashes but cater for things like exhaust mods etc.
- Chip = Replace ECU (or elements of)
- Remap = Overwrite ECU programming
- Tuning Box = Additional hardware intercepts and potentially alters signals to/from ECU
Remap can be separated into generic and custom. A generic map is basically an upload that works for your model of car. A custom map is your specific car on a rolling road as the mapper changes it for your specific requirements. The latter is typically better but more expensive. Worth noting some places sell 'custom' remaps that are generic ECU flashes but cater for things like exhaust mods etc.
itsnotarace said:
Ambleton said:
The guys who offer this online are often, but not always, using a pre-made map and loading it onto your ECU, overwriting the existing parameters. They might go in afterwards and do a little bit of post tuning if they think its required - nothing wrong with it. I would suggest this is a much better way than a tuning box which essentially just trick the software into thinking something else is happening when it's not.
It does exactly the same thing. Changes one set of parameters for another. Neither are tuned to the specific car or mods.One downside to a reflashed ECU is that there is a danger the company will "brick" the ECU whereas a tuning box can be removed with little trace
If it were my car, and out of warranty, I would definitely go for a remap,
Id not bother with a chip, always go for a remap. Done on 2 cars now... a 335i went from 300 to 360bhp, and a 330d went from 230 to 280bhp. Both had zero problems after the remap, so would have no problem recommending.
If i remember correctly, both were £300, and neither included a rolling road for a full custom tune - both were flashed over, then road tested.
If i remember correctly, both were £300, and neither included a rolling road for a full custom tune - both were flashed over, then road tested.
My daily is a 640d and plenty quick enough I find. If I wanted more speed I'd buy an M6 rather than ever fiddle with a tuning box or map or any other non manufacturer approved changes. Call me conformist but a car is less likely to break if left in OEM spec' and faster cars are set up to be faster
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