Ideal bhp or bhp/tonne

[Nicks90]

We've all seen the rise - almost exponential rise - of power outputs from the normal range of cars from hot hatches to supercars.
Golfs and focus with circa 350/400bhp and performance cars with 600/1000bhp

So in your opinion what's about right?
We don't all drag race santa pod, so what's useable, what's enjoyable and what do we want in a daily drive?

Personally I would rather get the most of driving on the limit of the car, revel in getting it 'right', instead of driving to my limits - where getting it wrong results in running out of talent and binning it big time. Can we really use a hot hatch that does 0-60 in 5sec and handle that safely on public roads? That's group B etc power that was difficult to drive on the edge for a pro! Now chav-tastic tossers can own one on PCP...

IMHO Maybe 100bhp per tonne, so I can light the tyres up and push the chassis and suspension and feel the car, but not be ludicrous and dangerous.

What's your ideal?

Edited by Nicks90 on Wednesday 22 July 23:23

[Equus]

It depends on a whole host of things.

For example, something like a Caterham, for road use and with current tyre and damper technology, I reckon that the sweet spot is about 350-400bhp/tonne (but that's calculated excluding driver, which in that sort of car accounts for a fair percentage of the all-up weight).

100bhp/tonne seems rather anemic, though: my (RWD) daily driver is about 180bhp/tonne, and I consider it underpowered. I'd be happier with at least 250bhp/tonne

For front wheel drive, OTOH, I wouldn't want much more than about 200bhp/tonne.

[Jim on the hill]

Equus said:

It depends on a whole host of things.

For example, something like a Caterham, for road use and with current tyre and damper technology, I reckon that the sweet spot is about 350-400bhp/tonne (but that's calculated excluding driver, which in that sort of car accounts for a fair percentage of the all-up weight).

100bhp/tonne seems rather anemic, though: my (RWD) daily driver is about 180bhp/tonne, and I consider it underpowered. I'd be happier with at least 250bhp/tonne

For front wheel drive, OTOH, I wouldn't want much more than about 200bhp/tonne.

Agreed 350-400bhp per tonne. I've had 500bhp per tonne before and it was too fast to ever use near full potential. 350-400 with the right conditions etc is perfect imo.

[bearman68]

I would have said about 150 a tonne. This is still low enough to have to drive it, rather than just mash the accelerator.

[Wills2]

Jim on the hill said:

Equus said:

It depends on a whole host of things.

For example, something like a Caterham, for road use and with current tyre and damper technology, I reckon that the sweet spot is about 350-400bhp/tonne (but that's calculated excluding driver, which in that sort of car accounts for a fair percentage of the all-up weight).

100bhp/tonne seems rather anemic, though: my (RWD) daily driver is about 180bhp/tonne, and I consider it underpowered. I'd be happier with at least 250bhp/tonne

For front wheel drive, OTOH, I wouldn't want much more than about 200bhp/tonne.

Agreed 350-400bhp per tonne. I've had 500bhp per tonne before and it was too fast to ever use near full potential. 350-400 with the right conditions etc is perfect imo.

400hp/tonne is the sweet spot for the road?...hilarious, when I had my F10 M5 560hp and around 290hp/tonne I was always a few seconds away from losing my licence yet you think taking that to 400hp/tonne is the sweet spot for usable power?

[Equus]

Wills2 said:

... when I had my F10 M5 560hp and around 290hp/tonne I was always a few seconds away from losing my licence yet you think taking that to 400hp/tonne is the sweet spot for usable power?

Perhaps you need to learn both learn how to drive, and how to exercise proper restraint when circumstances require it?

But I also said that it depends on a host of things, and gave that power output as an example for an ultra-lightweight sports car. Because a Locaterfield achieves a high power:weight ratio primarily from the low weight part of the equation (...and has a drag coefficient that would embarrass a barn door), it's actually not that quick in the upper speed ranges.

I had a ~450bhp/tonne 'Seven' that was flat out at less than 140mph, and I didn't gain any points on my licence, simply because I didn't deploy its performance in any location where there was any risk of encountering police or speed cameras. Although an F10 M5 likely wouldn't see which way it went on a country road in the hands of a competent driver...

I had an Elise Sport 160, back in the day, that similarly achieved a reasonably high power:weight ratio (about 220bhp/tonne) mainly from low weight, and again felt underpowered for the capability of the chassis (which is why modern Elise/Exige variants are happily coping with well over twice its horsepower).

By contrast, yes, some lumbering oaf of a German saloon, which achieves its high power:weight ratio mainly from its power rather than its weight will indeed have the sort of straight-line pace that will lose your licence very easily if you're stupid enough to plough up and down the motorways and dual carriageways of this land at irresponsible speeds...

Edited by Equus on Thursday 23 July 02:02

[Mr Tidy]

Equus said:

I had a ~450bhp/tonne 'Seven' that was flat out at less than 140mph, and I didn't gain any points on my licence, simply because I didn't deploy its performance in any location where there was any risk of encountering police or speed cameras. Although an F10 M5 likely wouldn't see which way it went on a country road in the hands of a competent driver...

It really depends what you want from your car.

A 450bhp/tonne "Seven" wouldn't see which way an F10 M5 went on a an unrestricted Autobahn.

But throw in a few bends and I know which would provide more fun!

[Equus]

Mr Tidy said:

It really depends what you want from your car.

A 450bhp/tonne "Seven" wouldn't see which way an F10 M5 went on a an unrestricted Autobahn.

Absolutely: but we don't have unrestricted Autobahns in the UK, which is probably why Wills2 feared so much for his licence, despite its rather feeble 290bhp/tonne...

[sherman]

I rekon 200-250 bhp per tonne in a decent chassis with 4 doors/ seats and a boot you can fit your shopping in would be more than enough for most people.

[Mr Tidy]

Equus said:

Absolutely: but we don't have unrestricted Autobahns in the UK, which is probably why Wills2 feared so much for his licence, despite its rather feeble 290bhp/tonne...

Fair comment, but I think we are currently allowed to go there!

But with just 230bhp/tonne I obviously don't need to.

[deeps]

I've driven Nissan GT-R's for the last 8 years covering over 100k miles. Standard they are 540 bhp, so around 310 bhp/tonne.

After a while that becomes a little boring, slightly flat at 100+ in 4th gear up.

I had a Litchfield stage 4 map which gives around 650 bhp (and increases torque from 450 to 600 lb-ft) so around 370bhp/tonne, and that feels so much more alive. Not much difference below 50, but at higher speeds it just wants to go, 4th gear feels more like a 3rd gear pull, 0-100 comes up in 6 seconds.

I haven't driven a stage 5 which would be nearer 800bhp (460bhp/tonne) but by many accounts it is a handful and decreases enjoyment because it's difficult to get all the power down, even with clever AWD.

So for me, the sweet spot is around 350 - 400bhp/tonne, same as the other posters.

[GravelBen]

There are many factors other than power/weight working together to determine how much fun a car is.

Personally I think 180-200bhp/tonne is about the sweet spot for my road use. I tend to prefer 90s cars with narrow tyres by modern standards too though.

What you are accustomed to is a factor too of course - my daily driver work vehicle is an old Hilux with a fair weight of gear in the back slowing it down. Compared to that even my 140bhp MX5 feels like a racecar!

Edited by GravelBen on Thursday 23 July 02:29

[cib24]

360hp per tonne

[americancrx]

I think a 1700 lb car with a 300 hp engine would be ideal for the street. Nearly 'bike fast, light enough to be easy on tires, brakes, and fuel, and a loose enough weight target to allow for decent weather protection and automotive rather than racing suspension parts.

[xstian]

I also think 200bhp/tonne is about right for the road.

My current car is 150bhp/tonne, weighing about 800kg. I think the low weight of my car is what makes it fun. If it had 150bhp/tonne but weighed 1800kg, I bet it would be rubbish. I wouldn't want it as a daily, although in my 20's I used one as a daily for many years, but modern cars spoil us in comfort and quietness, but that comfort and quietness has come at a price.

[Ron99]

125hp/t.

[MrAverage]

The fiesta st with 170bhp/tonne feels plenty enough for everyday use without fear of losing my license.

It's nowhere near as quick as my BMW was in a straight line and that only had 188bhp/tonne.

Anywhere around those figures feels good to me.

[ARHarh]

my 50 year old diesel land rover has about 40bhp/ton, and I still got held up on the way to town this morning.

[Krikkit]

bearman68 said:

I would have said about 150 a tonne. This is still low enough to have to drive it, rather than just mash the accelerator.

Totally agree with this - can wring it out without too much bother, but enough grunt not to be easily outdragged by a TDI if you're overtaking.

[CABC]

weight kills a car. power can't make up for that problem when braking or going round corners, especially a sequence of twisties.
some do better than others but still can't overcome physics.

150/tonne in a sub-tonne car