Cars that respond remarkably well to tuning
Discussion
Hi,
I've a GT86 with about £6000 of tuning to gain 20bhp. I love it. I developed an interest in cars that respond out of all proportion to this (I known NA tuning is hard and turbo tuning is easy). There seems to be significant cost savings in buying cooking models that actually can be tuned in exactly the same way and extent as 'Sport' models. I friend recently bought a Mazda6 diesel with the extra 40bhp engine for a premium of a couple of grand only to be gutted to find its mechanically identical to the lower powered engine and both can be tuned safely to 20% higher outputs than the Sport model.
I just noticed the Alfa Romeo 2.0 petrol turbo cooking can Boost just as high as the "more powerful" model. And that the gain is huge.
Are there my other similar examples?
I've a GT86 with about £6000 of tuning to gain 20bhp. I love it. I developed an interest in cars that respond out of all proportion to this (I known NA tuning is hard and turbo tuning is easy). There seems to be significant cost savings in buying cooking models that actually can be tuned in exactly the same way and extent as 'Sport' models. I friend recently bought a Mazda6 diesel with the extra 40bhp engine for a premium of a couple of grand only to be gutted to find its mechanically identical to the lower powered engine and both can be tuned safely to 20% higher outputs than the Sport model.
I just noticed the Alfa Romeo 2.0 petrol turbo cooking can Boost just as high as the "more powerful" model. And that the gain is huge.
Are there my other similar examples?
Many of the current turbo engines will show daft gains with remaps. My old M140i could be mapped to 440 bhp (from 335) for a few hundred quid. Our current MINI JCW can go from 228 to 320 for a similar outlay.
The 'same engine' thing is interesting, as in many cases the same engine type might be used across a range of outputs, but the hardware isn't necessarily the same. The MINI JCW vs GP3 comparison is a case in point. The former produces 230 bhp and the latter 300 bhp from what would appear to be the same 2 litre B48 type engine. Yet the GP3 unit has a raft of modifications, including a different turbo, lower compression pistons, a stronger crankshaft and modifications to the cooling system.
So, the remappers are getting 320 from the standard engine, yet it would appear BMW felt the need to throw some expensive upgrades at the engine to safely produce 300, and of course stick a warranty on it. Is this BMW being overly cautious, or the remappers pushing their luck?
I picked BMW here, but there are a few other manufacturers who tweak hardware at different power levels.
The 'same engine' thing is interesting, as in many cases the same engine type might be used across a range of outputs, but the hardware isn't necessarily the same. The MINI JCW vs GP3 comparison is a case in point. The former produces 230 bhp and the latter 300 bhp from what would appear to be the same 2 litre B48 type engine. Yet the GP3 unit has a raft of modifications, including a different turbo, lower compression pistons, a stronger crankshaft and modifications to the cooling system.
So, the remappers are getting 320 from the standard engine, yet it would appear BMW felt the need to throw some expensive upgrades at the engine to safely produce 300, and of course stick a warranty on it. Is this BMW being overly cautious, or the remappers pushing their luck?
I picked BMW here, but there are a few other manufacturers who tweak hardware at different power levels.
What does stage 1 and 2 mean in relation to re-mapping on that screenshot? Are they just charging more for different 1's and 0's?
I always thought it was broadly:
1 - Anything you could do without taking the head off (filters, manifold, carb, exhaust).
2 - Anything you can do with the head off. Port and polish, cams
3 - Anything that needs the rest of the engine out (or 1-2 modifications like skimming the head to increase compression, done to an extent that you need to do things that need the engine out like forged pistons, balancing etc).
I always thought it was broadly:
1 - Anything you could do without taking the head off (filters, manifold, carb, exhaust).
2 - Anything you can do with the head off. Port and polish, cams
3 - Anything that needs the rest of the engine out (or 1-2 modifications like skimming the head to increase compression, done to an extent that you need to do things that need the engine out like forged pistons, balancing etc).
Honeywell said:
Hi,
I've a GT86 with about £6000 of tuning to gain 20bhp. I love it.
That's rather silly given you can get a turbo or supercharger kit for that!I've a GT86 with about £6000 of tuning to gain 20bhp. I love it.
Basically anything turbocharged gets really good gains on a 200hp car basically by tuning for 99 ron and adding a bit of boost and fuel you can get typically 40 to 60 horses depending on the car.
You can gain even more on those "factory detuned" cars.. some of which have already been mentioned. You know, ones that are badged a lower model but use exactly the same turbo / injectors etc as a higher spec model.
thisisnotaspoon said:
What does stage 1 and 2 mean in relation to re-mapping on that screenshot? Are they just charging more for different 1's and 0's?
I always thought it was broadly:
1 - Anything you could do without taking the head off (filters, manifold, carb, exhaust).
2 - Anything you can do with the head off. Port and polish, cams
3 - Anything that needs the rest of the engine out (or 1-2 modifications like skimming the head to increase compression, done to an extent that you need to do things that need the engine out like forged pistons, balancing etc).
I wouldn't worry about it too much.I always thought it was broadly:
1 - Anything you could do without taking the head off (filters, manifold, carb, exhaust).
2 - Anything you can do with the head off. Port and polish, cams
3 - Anything that needs the rest of the engine out (or 1-2 modifications like skimming the head to increase compression, done to an extent that you need to do things that need the engine out like forged pistons, balancing etc).
It's simply an individual tuner choice or terms used by a particular car community. Eg in VW scene
Stage 1 is software only no hardware changes
Stage 2 is bolt on mods such as intercooler, exhaust system etc
Stage 3 is turbo changes (typically to a hybrid).
Then you have those funny GTR Nissan bunch who have stage 571.75 or stage 9 or stage 4.25 or stage 4.5 (????).
Pretty much anything with a turbo?
Recent Ford Fiestas + Focuses with a Mountune package, older Focus ST/RS (turbo). Even further back, the Sierra Cosworths, especially the RS500 and Escort Cosworth, early examples came with a large turbo that was awful for driveability, but big on power. The new(ish) 3 cylinder turbo engines come in various states of tune, with minimal physical changes.
Recent Ford Fiestas + Focuses with a Mountune package, older Focus ST/RS (turbo). Even further back, the Sierra Cosworths, especially the RS500 and Escort Cosworth, early examples came with a large turbo that was awful for driveability, but big on power. The new(ish) 3 cylinder turbo engines come in various states of tune, with minimal physical changes.
BrettMRC said:
1991 Rx7 Turbo II.
A decat and FCD would raise HP from 200 to 250, usually for under £150 all in.
Ahh, if only there were any Turbo IIs left....fond memories of my convertible with a Rotechnics ss system and how significant the increase was with that little dialable chip. Never bothered dialing it down, why would you! So addictive!A decat and FCD would raise HP from 200 to 250, usually for under £150 all in.
HenryHippo said:
manracer said:
This is a game I love to play!
BMW 114i - 100bhp to 200 bhp. 100% power increase!
Cooper S Mini 192bhp to 305bhp.
Two that spring to mind
Wow. I'd love to troll other drivers off the lights with a 114i badged car boasting 200 bhpBMW 114i - 100bhp to 200 bhp. 100% power increase!
Cooper S Mini 192bhp to 305bhp.
Two that spring to mind
Essentially it's the 1.5t 3 cylinder engine, half a b58 I've read.
It's the same engine as in the f56 mini cooper. The O/H has one in 139bhp tune (standard), tempted by the 200bhp remap.
I've remapped most of my cars. The edition 30 GTI did well from 230 to 300bhp.
I usually end up also upgrading the brakes too.
Good bang for buck.
VRSFaz said:
Golf GTI Edition 30
230 > 300 Bhp with just a remap.
A full turbo back exhaust and an intake will see circa 340bhp.
You need a HPFP for those latter figures. TBE and intake gets to about 310. Still rapid....230 > 300 Bhp with just a remap.
A full turbo back exhaust and an intake will see circa 340bhp.
Generally anything turbo does well with a map. The newer 2.0T VAG stuff gets ''fairly'' pokey at stage 2... in the order of 400bhp
Even if you've established that the only differences on the engine between a lower and higher powered version are software-based, it's worth double-checking that the rest of the driveline can cope with it.
The ubiquitous ZF 8HP autobox for example comes in several different flavours, with a maximum input torque rating between 450Nm and 900Nm. Several manufacturers, including BMW and JLR, use different variants in the same model range depending on the standard power level. It's not always the case that the higher powered version has the same driveline after the gearbox input shaft as the lower powered versions.
The ubiquitous ZF 8HP autobox for example comes in several different flavours, with a maximum input torque rating between 450Nm and 900Nm. Several manufacturers, including BMW and JLR, use different variants in the same model range depending on the standard power level. It's not always the case that the higher powered version has the same driveline after the gearbox input shaft as the lower powered versions.
Not quite up with the BMW 114 "double the power", but the old Vectra Elite (230ps) had the same engine hardware as the Vectra VXR and SAAB Aero of the time (280PS), and like the latter two could be boosted to approx 300PS (some cut holes in the airbox but it wasn't really necessary). So, 30% gains from a remap.
Doesn't the Ford 1.0 unit come in a 100bhp and 150bhp version from the factory, same hardware? A quick Google shows 158bhp is possible, so a 60% gain.
For N/A I think the Mercedes M113 V8 deserves a notable mention... The non-sports variants can gain 10% from a remap alone, possibly due to the fact they are running a very lazy state of tune from the factory but many parts are designed to flow a lot more fuel and air than is required for 306bhp.
Doesn't the Ford 1.0 unit come in a 100bhp and 150bhp version from the factory, same hardware? A quick Google shows 158bhp is possible, so a 60% gain.
For N/A I think the Mercedes M113 V8 deserves a notable mention... The non-sports variants can gain 10% from a remap alone, possibly due to the fact they are running a very lazy state of tune from the factory but many parts are designed to flow a lot more fuel and air than is required for 306bhp.
legless said:
Even if you've established that the only differences on the engine between a lower and higher powered version are software-based, it's worth double-checking that the rest of the driveline can cope with it.
The ubiquitous ZF 8HP autobox for example comes in several different flavours, with a maximum input torque rating between 450Nm and 900Nm. Several manufacturers, including BMW and JLR, use different variants in the same model range depending on the standard power level. It's not always the case that the higher powered version has the same driveline after the gearbox input shaft as the lower powered versions.
Whilst I don't disagree in principle with what you say, any reputable tuner should be clued up enough to either a) advise you of the above if it is in fact an issue for your specific car config and or b) only offer something that's within drivetrain tolerances. The ubiquitous ZF 8HP autobox for example comes in several different flavours, with a maximum input torque rating between 450Nm and 900Nm. Several manufacturers, including BMW and JLR, use different variants in the same model range depending on the standard power level. It's not always the case that the higher powered version has the same driveline after the gearbox input shaft as the lower powered versions.
Besides, the likelihood of the tuner not previously seen a specific car for a tune previously is very unlikely, and again, if this is the case the should advise you of this and either state they can't tune your car or offer for you to be the first ie experiment car.
As I'm sure anyone tunes their own car knows, there is a world of difference between an established tuner with rolling road, diagnostics etc Vs a £150 eBay generic map uploaded on your driveway.
Besides, one of the now big boys in the industry started out 15 years ago with the map uploads at your own house. They did it for me back in 2005. That car, a MK4 golf GTi 1.8t went from 150 to 200bhp. Zero issues were reported in the following 2 years.
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