Low Traffic Neighbourhoods
Discussion
What is people's general view on this? The government seem to be peddling the view that the majority are in favour, backing the heavy handed, no consultation approach taken on by many (mostly Labour) local councils. It affects everything, emergency services, caring for the elderly sick and disabled, caring for elderly and disabled relatives, businesses, deliveries, home repairs, I'm really surprised there hasn't been more of an outcry, as most people, especially the at risk, don't want to take public transport anyway
Depends on the approach taken. I live in a small, peaceful, village. Well, that's what it was. Except that a wonderful company established a quarry about 5 miles away. We now have 42 tonne articulated lorries traveling through the village (on a road that isn't wide enough for them), frequently forcing other traffic onto footpaths, generally causing chaos. Our local authority refused permission for the quarry company to construct a new access road direct from the quarry to the nearest 'A' road, hence completely disrupting and in some cases damaging our village (lorry hit bridge wall last year).
The majority are in favour when it's their road to be quietened.
The majority are against when their road is now expected to take more traffic or their journeys have suddenly become a PITA because a councillor lives on a (former) rat-run.
There has been a lot of conspiracy theorist stuff about using Covid to do it, but the ones I've seen were announced quite publicly in 2019 and there were opportunities to flag up concerns. Whether reasonable concerns are given any consideration is another matter... Few go into local government because they want to make a difference, I would love a Leslie Knope on my town council but it seems to be occupied by slopy shouldered bureaucrats who just want to drink tea and eat biscuits in peace.
The majority are against when their road is now expected to take more traffic or their journeys have suddenly become a PITA because a councillor lives on a (former) rat-run.
There has been a lot of conspiracy theorist stuff about using Covid to do it, but the ones I've seen were announced quite publicly in 2019 and there were opportunities to flag up concerns. Whether reasonable concerns are given any consideration is another matter... Few go into local government because they want to make a difference, I would love a Leslie Knope on my town council but it seems to be occupied by slopy shouldered bureaucrats who just want to drink tea and eat biscuits in peace.
I live right next to one... after years of suffering through the typical council approach of "we'll add humps and width restrictions, we'll take away the parking, we'll re-phase the traffic lights in the most stupid way possible... but we won't deal with the fact this road is still a rat run" I'd take the Low Traffic Neighbourhood every time. The key is rather than give your residential street several miserable routes to an arterial road, you have one reasonable route to one arterial road - which will be quiet because nobody is using it as a shortcut from one arterial road to the other.
It does mean some short journeys become unviable, because rather than going A to B you now need to go A to exit point C, drive round road D, go via entry point E and from there to B. But this is the classic problem of "I want there to be less traffic in my road while still being able to drive wherever I want", one of those things has to give. I'm personally not in the habit of cold-starting the car for a 2 minute trip when I can just put on a coat and walk to the local shops, so the balance works for me.
Some actual problems with them:
1. The roads at the edges of the zone will inevitably become the new rat runs unless it's done over a large area completely bounded by major roads.
2. Surprisingly large volume of traffic driving into the zone then turning round at each sign/modal filter/etc. - I'm guessing combination of out-of-date satnavs, people not knowing the local area, and people chancing it that one of the emergency service access bollards has been left open.
3. It's nigh-on impossible to fully seal an area with no cut-throughs and there'll inevitably be one tiny road which is nose to tail for its entire length every school morning.
It does mean some short journeys become unviable, because rather than going A to B you now need to go A to exit point C, drive round road D, go via entry point E and from there to B. But this is the classic problem of "I want there to be less traffic in my road while still being able to drive wherever I want", one of those things has to give. I'm personally not in the habit of cold-starting the car for a 2 minute trip when I can just put on a coat and walk to the local shops, so the balance works for me.
Some actual problems with them:
1. The roads at the edges of the zone will inevitably become the new rat runs unless it's done over a large area completely bounded by major roads.
2. Surprisingly large volume of traffic driving into the zone then turning round at each sign/modal filter/etc. - I'm guessing combination of out-of-date satnavs, people not knowing the local area, and people chancing it that one of the emergency service access bollards has been left open.
3. It's nigh-on impossible to fully seal an area with no cut-throughs and there'll inevitably be one tiny road which is nose to tail for its entire length every school morning.
Magnum 475 said:
Depends on the approach taken. I live in a small, peaceful, village. Well, that's what it was. Except that a wonderful company established a quarry about 5 miles away. We now have 42 tonne articulated lorries traveling through the village (on a road that isn't wide enough for them), frequently forcing other traffic onto footpaths, generally causing chaos. Our local authority refused permission for the quarry company to construct a new access road direct from the quarry to the nearest 'A' road, hence completely disrupting and in some cases damaging our village (lorry hit bridge wall last year).
I can sympathise with you regarding HGVs and the lack of empathy from the LA. We live along a narrow, single track country lane, with plenty of sharp bends, overhanging trees and tall verges, hedgerows that butt up against the road and a tarmac surface that’s barely wide enough for a normal car. Yet every so often, an articulated lorry comes creeping along it, cab pushing branches away, both nearside and offside wheels simultaneously gouging both verges, edges of the tarmac collapsing and generally leaving a trail of mud and broken branches in the road. The lane doesn’t link any two places, it’s merely a historic farm track that has been upgraded over the years, it’s about a mile and a half in length and to avoid it, involves using the two-lane B road that’s less than a mile away as the crow flies. I asked our LA to install some blue advisory “UNSUITABLE FOR HGV” signs at either end, they passed the buck and effectively said it was worth hassle than it’s worth for them. So our verges continue to get destroyed and there’s bugger all we can do about it. My regard for any LA is utterly rock bottom. GMV8 said:
What is people's general view on this? The government seem to be peddling the view that the majority are in favour, backing the heavy handed, no consultation approach taken on by many (mostly Labour) local councils. It affects everything, emergency services, caring for the elderly sick and disabled, caring for elderly and disabled relatives, businesses, deliveries, home repairs, I'm really surprised there hasn't been more of an outcry, as most people, especially the at risk, don't want to take public transport anyway
I don't think you've grasped the concept of Low Traffic Neighbourhoods. Deliveries, emergency access, home repairs etc. remain possible. It is through traffic that is discouraged.Riley Blue said:
I don't think you've grasped the concept of Low Traffic Neighbourhoods. Deliveries, emergency access, home repairs etc. remain possible. It is through traffic that is discouraged.
No - where I live, they have completely closed off access to houses, apart from a convoluted route, where you are stuck in traffic for hours so tradesmean are refusing to come, when I had to attend hospital for an emergency operation, I was in a lot more pain than necessary, people are even giving birth on the streets, and to top it all pollution levels are sky high through all the traffic jams. The roads were not congested in the first place. I understand the previous poster and HGV's etc., and sure walking short distances is perfectly acceptable, but one size does not fit all. A helpful engagement with the public providing subsidies for electric cars would be far more useful if they want to reduce pollution.Edited by GMV8 on Wednesday 28th October 12:13
I'm all for.
This Wikipedia article, with the help of diagrams https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permeability_(spatia...
Explains why perfectly:- All journeys are still possiblel; Ambulances etc. can still get exactly where they need to go - Journeys just "drop" from the arterial route into the residential area wherever it makes sense to, rather than weaving through residential streets (Rat runs) to achieve the same.
It's not much of an imposition to ask the car to go a bit further / more round-about, given it takes no physical effort - And through the proper use of priority on the arterial routes, actually takes no longer (Or is even quicker) thanks to the reduction in joining / exiting ratrun traffic.
Driving around a town in the Netherlands is such a perfect example of why it makes sense:- It's fantastic to use the roads as a car on roads for cars, and it's fantastic to be a pedestrian too - With slow, much reduced traffic in residential areas.
This Wikipedia article, with the help of diagrams https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permeability_(spatia...
Explains why perfectly:- All journeys are still possiblel; Ambulances etc. can still get exactly where they need to go - Journeys just "drop" from the arterial route into the residential area wherever it makes sense to, rather than weaving through residential streets (Rat runs) to achieve the same.
It's not much of an imposition to ask the car to go a bit further / more round-about, given it takes no physical effort - And through the proper use of priority on the arterial routes, actually takes no longer (Or is even quicker) thanks to the reduction in joining / exiting ratrun traffic.
Driving around a town in the Netherlands is such a perfect example of why it makes sense:- It's fantastic to use the roads as a car on roads for cars, and it's fantastic to be a pedestrian too - With slow, much reduced traffic in residential areas.
GMV8 said:
Riley Blue said:
I don't think you've grasped the concept of Low Traffic Neighbourhoods. Deliveries, emergency access, home repairs etc. remain possible. It is through traffic that is discouraged.
No - where I live, they have completely closed off access to houses, apart from a convoluted route, where you are stuck in traffic for hours so tradesmean are refusing to come, when I had to attend hospital for an emergency operation, I was in a lot more pain than necessary, people are even giving birth on the streets, and to top it all pollution levels are sky high through all the traffic jams. The roads were not congested in the first place. I understand the previous poster and HGV's etc., and sure walking short distances is perfectly acceptable, but one size does not fit all. A helpful engagement with the public providing subsidies for electric cars would be far more useful if they want to reduce pollution.Edited by GMV8 on Wednesday 28th October 12:13
Our council have now removed many or made them one-way rather than blocking completely which means they can still catch people on camera.
Although LTN is something of a misnomer where these have been brought in for social distancing on quiet residential roads. There is a benefit in having pedestrianised areas for restaurants but we only have 1 such example of that type of use here.
Basically they had to take the government emergency funding and don't have the brains in the town hall to actually come up with any other plans so they just did what all the other councils did and blocked the roads with massive planters. Although the fact that they're identical across London gave rise to conspiracy theories concerning TfL who have also now made bus lanes 24/7 even where there are not night busses.
Seems be a self fulfilling case of proving we need to reduce pollution where closed roads have none, while it's high on the roads vehicles have now been diverted on to.
It certainly brings out those who are blindly anti car who say it facilitates walking as if we've been a century without pavements.
Although LTN is something of a misnomer where these have been brought in for social distancing on quiet residential roads. There is a benefit in having pedestrianised areas for restaurants but we only have 1 such example of that type of use here.
Basically they had to take the government emergency funding and don't have the brains in the town hall to actually come up with any other plans so they just did what all the other councils did and blocked the roads with massive planters. Although the fact that they're identical across London gave rise to conspiracy theories concerning TfL who have also now made bus lanes 24/7 even where there are not night busses.
Seems be a self fulfilling case of proving we need to reduce pollution where closed roads have none, while it's high on the roads vehicles have now been diverted on to.
It certainly brings out those who are blindly anti car who say it facilitates walking as if we've been a century without pavements.
Riley Blue said:
GMV8 said:
Riley Blue said:
I don't think you've grasped the concept of Low Traffic Neighbourhoods. Deliveries, emergency access, home repairs etc. remain possible. It is through traffic that is discouraged.
No - where I live, they have completely closed off access to houses, apart from a convoluted route, where you are stuck in traffic for hours so tradesmean are refusing to come, when I had to attend hospital for an emergency operation, I was in a lot more pain than necessary, people are even giving birth on the streets, and to top it all pollution levels are sky high through all the traffic jams. The roads were not congested in the first place. I understand the previous poster and HGV's etc., and sure walking short distances is perfectly acceptable, but one size does not fit all. A helpful engagement with the public providing subsidies for electric cars would be far more useful if they want to reduce pollution.Edited by GMV8 on Wednesday 28th October 12:13
Riley Blue said:
That's obviously not how such schemes are intended to work. Where do you live?
Islington / Hackney - it's a total nightmare. I don't drive often anyway, only to get out of London, as it just wasn't worth driving, even before these LTNs were imposed, but it's affecting so many other things. It's the disabled and elderly who are particularly hard hit, not just them getting out, but their carers / doctors visiting them.GMV8 said:
Riley Blue said:
That's obviously not how such schemes are intended to work. Where do you live?
Islington / Hackney - it's a total nightmare. I don't drive often anyway, only to get out of London, as it just wasn't worth driving, even before these LTNs were imposed, but it's affecting so many other things. It's the disabled and elderly who are particularly hard hit, not just them getting out, but their carers / doctors visiting them.https://www.onlondon.co.uk/low-traffic-neighbourho...
g7jhp said:
Why not if done well.
Taking the car when you can walk or cycle 5-10 minutes is better for your health and the environment.
The more people who do it, the better our towns and cities become.
You can't warm the car up in that time so it's pointless unless there is an emergency.
What about the weekly shop? Or if it is raining?Taking the car when you can walk or cycle 5-10 minutes is better for your health and the environment.
The more people who do it, the better our towns and cities become.
You can't warm the car up in that time so it's pointless unless there is an emergency.
Isn't it funny how those opposed to these things have always had medical emergencies or know people who have had to give birth to an ostrich in the street, and live in a road that the LA has made totally inaccessible by blocking one end.
I bet if I looked at the 2 abreast cyclist thread there'd be the same users ranting on there.
I bet if I looked at the 2 abreast cyclist thread there'd be the same users ranting on there.
Leon R said:
g7jhp said:
Why not if done well.
Taking the car when you can walk or cycle 5-10 minutes is better for your health and the environment.
The more people who do it, the better our towns and cities become.
You can't warm the car up in that time so it's pointless unless there is an emergency.
What about the weekly shop? Or if it is raining?Taking the car when you can walk or cycle 5-10 minutes is better for your health and the environment.
The more people who do it, the better our towns and cities become.
You can't warm the car up in that time so it's pointless unless there is an emergency.
Huge reliance on a car nowadays to bring back bread for the family and to keep warm and dry..
sociopath said:
Isn't it funny how those opposed to these things have always had medical emergencies or know people who have had to give birth to an ostrich in the street, and live in a road that the LA has made totally inaccessible by blocking one end.
I bet if I looked at the 2 abreast cyclist thread there'd be the same users ranting on there.
Quite. But isn't it always best just to let things get a bit worse over time and just moan about it?? Or perhaps give something a try that has the potential to significantly improve people's lives and change engrained habits. It's not always going to work out, but I'd hope that we could be a society that recognises that change sometimes has to happen (or at least give it a proper go)..I bet if I looked at the 2 abreast cyclist thread there'd be the same users ranting on there.
Edited by df76 on Wednesday 28th October 15:53
Leon R said:
g7jhp said:
Why not if done well.
Taking the car when you can walk or cycle 5-10 minutes is better for your health and the environment.
The more people who do it, the better our towns and cities become.
You can't warm the car up in that time so it's pointless unless there is an emergency.
What about the weekly shop? Or if it is raining?Taking the car when you can walk or cycle 5-10 minutes is better for your health and the environment.
The more people who do it, the better our towns and cities become.
You can't warm the car up in that time so it's pointless unless there is an emergency.
If you speak to someone about what stops them walk/cycling often traffic is one of those things. To remove traffic an encourage people to walk their kids to school, for example, has got to be a good thing. Exercise is basically a wonder drug.
We need to remove a fair amount of traffic from our roads as we simply can't build our way our of congestion, especially if we all want stuff delivered. There will always be someone inconvenienced by a scheme, question is do we keep a rat run open just so one disabled person doesn't have a longer drive to the shops?
Emergency services issues can be fixed with ANPR camera although traffic now on the main roads (and not rat running) causing congestion and preventing fire engines from getting to emergencies kinds of proves the point that roads are too congested. Roads through local residential areas have become part of the capacity which I don't think is right.
Every thread like this always ends the same with people saying they have to drive because of XYZ. Problem is most people don't think how their choices impact other people.
We need to remove a fair amount of traffic from our roads as we simply can't build our way our of congestion, especially if we all want stuff delivered. There will always be someone inconvenienced by a scheme, question is do we keep a rat run open just so one disabled person doesn't have a longer drive to the shops?
Emergency services issues can be fixed with ANPR camera although traffic now on the main roads (and not rat running) causing congestion and preventing fire engines from getting to emergencies kinds of proves the point that roads are too congested. Roads through local residential areas have become part of the capacity which I don't think is right.
Every thread like this always ends the same with people saying they have to drive because of XYZ. Problem is most people don't think how their choices impact other people.
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