Whose "E5" is really "E0" ethanol free?
Discussion
Couple of other threads got me thinking, as it was mentioned that Esso's Synergy Supreme+ 99 is completely free of ethanol, and is only labeled E5 because it's required to be, the E5 grade being for up to 5% ethanol content.
Their website seems to confirm this.
I know that's not true in all areas, but I'm in the Midlands, and it seems it is here.
So, should I wish to buy petrol that has no ethanol it, rather than just a little bit, which companies offer that?
Their website seems to confirm this.
I know that's not true in all areas, but I'm in the Midlands, and it seems it is here.
So, should I wish to buy petrol that has no ethanol it, rather than just a little bit, which companies offer that?
InitialDave said:
Couple of other threads got me thinking, as it was mentioned that Esso's Synergy Supreme+ 99 is completely free of ethanol, and is only labeled E5 because it's required to be, the E5 grade being for up to 5% ethanol content.
Their website seems to confirm this.
I know that's not true in all areas, but I'm in the Midlands, and it seems it is here.
So, should I wish to buy petrol that has no ethanol it, rather than just a little bit, which companies offer that?
Just esso, of the major brands.Their website seems to confirm this.
I know that's not true in all areas, but I'm in the Midlands, and it seems it is here.
So, should I wish to buy petrol that has no ethanol it, rather than just a little bit, which companies offer that?
If you want fuel which has nothing else in it, you could spend £5 a litre on alkylate from Anglo American oil company (Aspen or sunoco). But that would be mad.
InitialDave said:
Because in some cases, I thought I was using ethanol free fuel and it turns out I may not have been, which would explain some issues.
You can buy test kits which will tell you from a small (minimum delivery 2l at most places) if there is ethanol. It does seem that there is no guarantee of any of the brands being ethanol free even if some of them are most of the time at most locations. There is a lot of discussion around this in aviation (rotax 912 mostly use mogas) forums so you may want to look there.From https://www.esso.co.uk/en-gb/fuels-faqs under 'What is the difference between E10 and E5 petrol?'
"E5 petrol contains up to 5% ethanol by volume and E10 contains up to 10% by volume. All Esso's Synergy fuels contain additives to help clean, protect and enhance your car's engine, however Esso's Synergy Supreme+ 99 E5 fuel contains a double dose of additive. Esso Synergy Supreme+ 99 contains up to 5% ethanol."
(My bold.)
"E5 petrol contains up to 5% ethanol by volume and E10 contains up to 10% by volume. All Esso's Synergy fuels contain additives to help clean, protect and enhance your car's engine, however Esso's Synergy Supreme+ 99 E5 fuel contains a double dose of additive. Esso Synergy Supreme+ 99 contains up to 5% ethanol."
(My bold.)
InitialDave said:
Because in some cases, I thought I was using ethanol free fuel and it turns out I may not have been, which would explain some issues.
Out of interest, what are the issues? The tooth sucking and snake oil industries are having a field day re ethanol and sell thousands of solutions to problems that don't exist. As seen with toilet roll and petrol it's really easy nowadays to get millions of Britons soiling themselves over nothing and to give you all their money. 
'Ethanol, mate.' Has become the defacto utterance from every monkey mechanic on the make.
The key benefits of burning ethanol in the West is that it starves people in the third world and incentivises them to increase rainforest destruction. Lesser benefits being that it produces fewer NOx when allowed to burn in air at its optimum temp, which incidentally isn't the same temp that gasoline burns at and that it is hydroscopic so removes water from tank sweating, stopping it from building up and eventually being an issue.
I'm not saying that in your case it might not be an issue as I've no idea what your situation is but every slacker, numbnuts and grifter is massively on the make on the back of a load of made up and distorted mumbo jumbo. And in a country where last week we saw punters putting diesel into their cars because there was no petrol can begin to see why.
Arguably, the best way to test would be to completely clean out the vehicle's tank, lines and whole fuel system, emptying and cleaning and then put in 10L of fresh E10 and see what the results are. That would give a base control. Then drain the system and dump in 10L of garden centre fuel and run that.
DonkeyApple said:
Out of interest, what are the issues? The tooth sucking and snake oil industries are having a field day re ethanol and sell thousands of solutions to problems that don't exist.
Car sat for a while and running unhappily afterwards, suspect it was caused by moisture in the fuel, plus I've got cars that are old enough to be unsure how well they'll take to ethanol, and been unused long enough they've never had ethanol containing petrol put in them.Some cars I'll go through and see if I can replace all the old rubber etc in the fuel system with stuff that's ethanol tolerant, others I'm not sure how practical that will be.
Basically, I'd just like the option to be able to get totally ethanol free petrol, even if it costs a little more.
I'm not that concerned, I guess at some point ethanol will be unavoidable, but it'd be nice to know what sources are ethanol free.
It's only really gardening fuel at about £5/litre.
With regards to the water aspect, ethanol actually removes water and gets it through the whole system without trouble so is a useful thing but where it becomes a problem is if you have a lot of excess water in the bottom of a fuel tank and the fuel gets left in there for long periods.
Emulsification needs a lot of excess water (more than basic tank sweating can produce) and then at RT&P needs about 3-6 months for the reaction (phase separation) to occur.
The corrosive nature of ethanol on plastics is a bit more complex. Ethanol has been being put in fuel for decades and manufacturers have been having to use ethanol proof plastics in key markets since the 60s and 70s. Countries such as Brazil have been using ethanol since the late 60s and run much higher percentages than we do. It's been in US fuels since the 90s. The key lies in understanding your car's fuel system and where plastics may be and their age etc.
The most common problems caused by ethanol tend to actually be down to bad practices that owners have been getting away with bit ethanol will tend to highlight. These tend to be leaving fuel in the carbs for very long periods, leaving fuel in a sweating tank for long periods and never cleaning out a tank.
With old and infrequently used cars the key is to have the fuel tank cleaned out so that you know there isn't a nice big pool of water in there and to drain the carbs after use so there isn't any fuel sitting in there to glaze and gum up the carb or for ethanol to either emulsify or corrode soft metals.
What's mostly catching people out is dirty fuel systems and storing fuel for far too long.
One of the joys of old cars is that we can easily syphon our tanks out and we can empty our carbs. Plus, if we do accidentally suck muck up we can remove and clean the carbs. Someone with a modern EFI who leaves a load of fuel in a tank full of water is going to have the real problem.
I've been using garden fuel for a while now in the garden machinery that I only tend to use once or twice a year such as the hedge trimmer and chainsaw. For things like the leaf blower I just use e10. I have a 4hp 80s outboard and I use garden fuel in that because of its age and that I use it rarely. The larger outboard I just run e10 on.
I keep petrol in 10L Gerry cans and outboard tanks but any that have been sitting around for a month or so get tipped into the Rangie and disposed of.
The key lies in fuel age management mostly.
With regards to the water aspect, ethanol actually removes water and gets it through the whole system without trouble so is a useful thing but where it becomes a problem is if you have a lot of excess water in the bottom of a fuel tank and the fuel gets left in there for long periods.
Emulsification needs a lot of excess water (more than basic tank sweating can produce) and then at RT&P needs about 3-6 months for the reaction (phase separation) to occur.
The corrosive nature of ethanol on plastics is a bit more complex. Ethanol has been being put in fuel for decades and manufacturers have been having to use ethanol proof plastics in key markets since the 60s and 70s. Countries such as Brazil have been using ethanol since the late 60s and run much higher percentages than we do. It's been in US fuels since the 90s. The key lies in understanding your car's fuel system and where plastics may be and their age etc.
The most common problems caused by ethanol tend to actually be down to bad practices that owners have been getting away with bit ethanol will tend to highlight. These tend to be leaving fuel in the carbs for very long periods, leaving fuel in a sweating tank for long periods and never cleaning out a tank.
With old and infrequently used cars the key is to have the fuel tank cleaned out so that you know there isn't a nice big pool of water in there and to drain the carbs after use so there isn't any fuel sitting in there to glaze and gum up the carb or for ethanol to either emulsify or corrode soft metals.
What's mostly catching people out is dirty fuel systems and storing fuel for far too long.
One of the joys of old cars is that we can easily syphon our tanks out and we can empty our carbs. Plus, if we do accidentally suck muck up we can remove and clean the carbs. Someone with a modern EFI who leaves a load of fuel in a tank full of water is going to have the real problem.
I've been using garden fuel for a while now in the garden machinery that I only tend to use once or twice a year such as the hedge trimmer and chainsaw. For things like the leaf blower I just use e10. I have a 4hp 80s outboard and I use garden fuel in that because of its age and that I use it rarely. The larger outboard I just run e10 on.
I keep petrol in 10L Gerry cans and outboard tanks but any that have been sitting around for a month or so get tipped into the Rangie and disposed of.
The key lies in fuel age management mostly.
DonkeyApple said:
One of the joys of old cars is that we can easily syphon our tanks out and we can empty our carbs. Plus, if we do accidentally suck muck up we can remove and clean the carbs. Someone with a modern EFI who leaves a load of fuel in a tank full of water is going to have the real problem.
Yep, but remember, "modern" EFI is itself quite old now.Old old stuff I'm not too bothered about, as the systems are simpler and easier to fiddle with.
DonkeyApple said:
The key lies in fuel age management mostly.
True, and your point about "getting away with bad practice" is likely correct.But if I can buy fuel that will tolerate that better, I'd like to still be able to!
Garden fuel is the clear solution. But it's 5 times the price of e10. Plus, one's home insurance is likely to stipulate how little you can actually store etc. But as a means to leave cars for months on end with fuel in them then it's about the only option, assuming you can find one that publishes its RON as again, a lawn mower won't mind a bit of 85 but a car might.
The wider issue is that people are actually out there trying to con consumers into buying magical chemicals that somehow make ethanol disappear. Lord knows what that muck is going to do to engines!
If I had a car collection I think I'd be running a system of draining the fuel from the tanks, maybe then chucking in a litre or two is garden fuel and basically filling a car only when I'm going to use it.
The wider issue is that people are actually out there trying to con consumers into buying magical chemicals that somehow make ethanol disappear. Lord knows what that muck is going to do to engines!
If I had a car collection I think I'd be running a system of draining the fuel from the tanks, maybe then chucking in a litre or two is garden fuel and basically filling a car only when I'm going to use it.
eliot said:
I was about to swap all the fuel in my mowers and generator for esso super. I made a fuel extractor using an old red top fuel pump.
Will have to wait a bit before I dare venture to the garage to fill my jerry can up.
Right now the most dangerous thing about ethanol is risking confrontation with one of those dumb, angry folk when trying to buy some. Will have to wait a bit before I dare venture to the garage to fill my jerry can up.
I decided it was about time to get my old Honda genny up and running and properly plumbed into the house. First step was to remove the tank and clean out the fuel system. But in the process it dawned on me that this kind of machine where the fuel will sit potentially for years and is awkward to drain off is in need of a different approach going forward.
My experiment is to see if an outboard tank can be used instead. The existing tank was absolutely full of muck and is clearly rusty inside which made it an easier decision to junk it. Just waiting for some outboard brass fuel connectors to arrive before I can test the theory that once primed a syphon effect will keep the fuel being fed. If it works then the plastic fuel line between the carb and the old tank will need replacing and I'll tap the carb and fit a drainage screw etc.
DonkeyApple said:
eliot said:
I was about to swap all the fuel in my mowers and generator for esso super. I made a fuel extractor using an old red top fuel pump.
Will have to wait a bit before I dare venture to the garage to fill my jerry can up.
Right now the most dangerous thing about ethanol is risking confrontation with one of those dumb, angry folk when trying to buy some. Will have to wait a bit before I dare venture to the garage to fill my jerry can up.
I decided it was about time to get my old Honda genny up and running and properly plumbed into the house. First step was to remove the tank and clean out the fuel system. But in the process it dawned on me that this kind of machine where the fuel will sit potentially for years and is awkward to drain off is in need of a different approach going forward.
My experiment is to see if an outboard tank can be used instead. The existing tank was absolutely full of muck and is clearly rusty inside which made it an easier decision to junk it. Just waiting for some outboard brass fuel connectors to arrive before I can test the theory that once primed a syphon effect will keep the fuel being fed. If it works then the plastic fuel line between the carb and the old tank will need replacing and I'll tap the carb and fit a drainage screw etc.
[Img]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51546656440_a2b4829d94_c.jpg[/thumb]
[Img]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51546459074_36fc86f547_h.jpg[/thumb]
[Img]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51546656110_f88f57ba1e_c.jpg[/thumb]
Hopefully that's temporary!
CraigyMc said:
Forgive me for asking, but have you really just installed a fuel tank above the radiator fins of your generator's motor?
Hopefully that's temporary!
The problem rigo al ( problem rigo al? Meant to be original!!) tin tank was directly above and relied on about an inch of air flow between the fins and the base of the tank. This tank is offset away from the fins, has the 8mm ply floor and then sits on a pair of 10mm strips so is both better insulated and with two zones of air flow. Hopefully that's temporary!
Once in its final home, which will be a stand alone structure between the barn and the house, both the tank and the battery will be about a foot above the genny on their own shelf.
Edited by DonkeyApple on Tuesday 5th October 13:07
DonkeyApple said:
king believably loud? As in wake the dead, people 200 yards away wonder what is happening? Mine is, even without material load. I suspect the timing may be retarded, as the exhaust seems to get rather hot, but the silencing seems to be intact.rxe said:
DonkeyApple said:
[Img]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51546656110_f88f57ba1e_c.jpg[/thumb]
Question for you as a fellow owner of what I think is an E5000 - is yours un-fking believably loud? As in wake the dead, people 200 yards away wonder what is happening? Mine is, even without material load. I suspect the timing may be retarded, as the exhaust seems to get rather hot, but the silencing seems to be intact.I've an EU22i precisely because it's quiet enough to live with. YMMV.
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