Do cars have too tall gearing or too many gears these days?
Discussion
I drove a new Cooper S auto a short while back. It wasn't bad by any means. But the engine, despite being turbo charged, felt like it did its best work when being revved to the red line.
The trouble is..... 2nd gear would take you almost to 60mph (the legal limit). And 3rd gear over 90mph (so I've heard
)
I get the fact that low rpm is needed for cruising and in this modern day an age cars need a 140mph+ top speed, because every car is driven on the unlimited sections of the German autobahns weekly... (sarcasm for those that didn't get it
)
The issue I have is. Even with 4 or 5 gears that is still pretty tall gearing. But the Cooper S has 8 gears.....!!!! So, one has to ask. Realistically what are the other 5 gears for?
For me I found it removed a huge amount of driver enjoyment. If you wanted to remain UK legal you'd get 1 gear change when accelerating. And even if you didn't mind some excessive speeding it is only 2 gear changes. It also meant that for the vast majority of the time the engine was not in its prime rpm to have fun. Which heavily detracted from the fun aspect of thrashing the pants off it on a good B road!
Another thing worth noting. I bet the Cooper S employs torque limiting tactics in the lower gears. So while all your legal wide open throttle antics will be in 1st & 2nd gear. I be the engine doesn't make its full quota of ponies until you are in higher gears. Which would make me feel rather short changed on the advertised Horse Power ratings vs what you can legally access at wide open throttle on UK roads.
Anyone else notice this sort of thing?
The trouble is..... 2nd gear would take you almost to 60mph (the legal limit). And 3rd gear over 90mph (so I've heard
)I get the fact that low rpm is needed for cruising and in this modern day an age cars need a 140mph+ top speed, because every car is driven on the unlimited sections of the German autobahns weekly... (sarcasm for those that didn't get it
)The issue I have is. Even with 4 or 5 gears that is still pretty tall gearing. But the Cooper S has 8 gears.....!!!! So, one has to ask. Realistically what are the other 5 gears for?
For me I found it removed a huge amount of driver enjoyment. If you wanted to remain UK legal you'd get 1 gear change when accelerating. And even if you didn't mind some excessive speeding it is only 2 gear changes. It also meant that for the vast majority of the time the engine was not in its prime rpm to have fun. Which heavily detracted from the fun aspect of thrashing the pants off it on a good B road!
Another thing worth noting. I bet the Cooper S employs torque limiting tactics in the lower gears. So while all your legal wide open throttle antics will be in 1st & 2nd gear. I be the engine doesn't make its full quota of ponies until you are in higher gears. Which would make me feel rather short changed on the advertised Horse Power ratings vs what you can legally access at wide open throttle on UK roads.
Anyone else notice this sort of thing?
300bhp/ton said:
Another thing worth noting. I bet the Cooper S employs torque limiting tactics in the lower gears. So while all your legal wide open throttle antics will be in 1st & 2nd gear. I be the engine doesn't make its full quota of ponies until you are in higher gears. Which would make me feel rather short changed on the advertised Horse Power ratings vs what you can legally access at wide open throttle on UK roads.
Anyone else notice this sort of thing?
Yes. Anyone else notice this sort of thing?
My car is torque limited in its (fairly high) first and second gears. Standing starts are "pedestrian", although its ok once into 3rd. I'd have preferred to have had a heftier clutch and the full torque available.
Heathwood said:
All for the purpose of official economy / emissions figures isn’t it?
Maybe, although I'd have thought with 8 gears you could have enough to do both.If you think of it like having 4 gears and an OD on each gear to split it. Top speed wouldn't be as high maybe, although you could chuck a tall top gear on it. I guess it might be more about final drive than the actual ratios (not sure what they are and how many are over rather than under drives?). It just seemed a bit wasted.
Not singling out the MINI. I'm sure lots of modern cars are the same. Manual and autos.
Canon_Fodder said:
You had the wrong Mini
Get a Mini One with a manual box.
Great fun thrashed (legally) in 3rd & 4th on B roads and then use very long 6th on the motorway for 60mpg 70mph cruising.
5th seems redundant in mine I must say, but 2nd is useful in 30mph zones, as it labours in 3rd at 30
How do you thrash a car legally in 3rd & 4th?Get a Mini One with a manual box.
Great fun thrashed (legally) in 3rd & 4th on B roads and then use very long 6th on the motorway for 60mpg 70mph cruising.
5th seems redundant in mine I must say, but 2nd is useful in 30mph zones, as it labours in 3rd at 30
Heathwood said:
All for the purpose of official economy / emissions figures isn’t it?
This all day long. Driveability has long gone out the window, now gearboxes shuffle up a large number of ratios to keep the crank speed as low as possible at all times for reduced friction losses therefore better emissions. If you want super tall gears, see almost any Porsche. Or even more basic cars these days are geared for very low engine speeds for everyday speeds. My old Mk7 Fiesta could not take 5th below 50mph, and despite my efforts never once reached redline in 3rd. Contrast to my wife's older Honda Jazz that will take 5th at half that speed!Torque caps in lower gears are normally for the protection of the weakest link in the driveline - not necessarily the clutch, it could be the gearbox itself, diff, the CV joints, etc. Engineering the entire drivetrain to take peak torque for all of first gear would mean it would be very heavy and over-engineered for all other use cases except the standing start, which is very trivial in the grand scheme of things. If you don't need a competitive 0-60 time why bother.
I drove an F-150 Raptor once with a 10 speed auto and that was too many gears. In manual, I wanted 3rd for some actual 'response', after downshifting what what felt like a dozen times I still found myself only in 5th..! A horrid combination of clutch slip, lots of ratios and disconnected pedal meant that, in auto, any request for forward motion was met by a very long delay while the ECU juggled all those things to decide which would be best at delivering some torque to the driven wheels. Ends up feeling very disconnected (mash pedal and see what happens).
LankyFreak said:
Shaw Tarse said:
All you need is a Smart Roadster
If it was manual I would own a Smart Roadster, bizarre decision to not have a manual IMO...I'd sort of agree. Although having owned one and done lots and lots of miles in it. I found to actually love the gearbox for performance/enthusiastic driving. It was f'ing useless in town. But a darn good thrashing and it was highly interactive and required you to drive it well to reward. And reward it did.
Interestingly it technically was a manual gearbox. A 3 speed manual with electronic overdrive on each gear and an automated clutch. If you remembered this when driving and drove it like a manual, i.e. told it to change gear when you'd normally start to push the clutch pedal down. It was quick and responsive at shifting. A slightly pulse/lift on the throttle to smooth it all out was all that needed. Driving it as though it was a Playstation game with instantaneous gear changes the very millisecond you touched the lever, was simply not what it was about. It also didn't drive as a full auto very well.
In many ways I think a manual with the same gearing would be too much the other way. Far too much shifting. With the semi-auto it had you could up and down shift while keeping power on, something you can't really do the same with a conventional manual. You could also shift at times and points you probably wouldn't have wanted to with a manual either.
300bhp/ton said:
But the Cooper S has 8 gears.....!!!!
IIRC the Cooper S auto started with a 6 speed torque-converter, then later got a 7 speed DCT. Where did your 8 speed Cooper S come from?In my experience the 7 speed DCT actually has pretty good gearing, 1-6 are normal, and 7 is a good overdrive for the motorway.
Olivera said:
IIRC the Cooper S auto started with a 6 speed torque-converter, then later got a 7 speed DCT. Where did your 8 speed Cooper S come from?
In my experience the 7 speed DCT actually has pretty good gearing, 1-6 are normal, and 7 is a good overdrive for the motorway.
My bad, maybe it was 7. Doesn't change my point though.In my experience the 7 speed DCT actually has pretty good gearing, 1-6 are normal, and 7 is a good overdrive for the motorway.
Olivera said:
IIRC the Cooper S auto started with a 6 speed torque-converter, then later got a 7 speed DCT. Where did your 8 speed Cooper S come from?
In my experience the 7 speed DCT actually has pretty good gearing, 1-6 are normal, and 7 is a good overdrive for the motorway.
Well the car I drove was new and a demo from the dealer, so I assume the latest/current model. Gearing is as I describe, have a video review too if you don't believe me.In my experience the 7 speed DCT actually has pretty good gearing, 1-6 are normal, and 7 is a good overdrive for the motorway.
As for the gearbox, no idea now on the number of gears. Just been on the MINI website, but it doesn't seem to tell you. I've been through a load of pages, the 'technical data section and the configurator.
But maybe I found an answer... officially it seems the car is capable of 235mph!!!
which might explain the tall gearing 
300bhp/ton said:
Olivera said:
IIRC the Cooper S auto started with a 6 speed torque-converter, then later got a 7 speed DCT. Where did your 8 speed Cooper S come from?
In my experience the 7 speed DCT actually has pretty good gearing, 1-6 are normal, and 7 is a good overdrive for the motorway.
Well the car I drove was new and a demo from the dealer, so I assume the latest/current model. Gearing is as I describe, have a video review too if you don't believe me.In my experience the 7 speed DCT actually has pretty good gearing, 1-6 are normal, and 7 is a good overdrive for the motorway.
As for the gearbox, no idea now on the number of gears. Just been on the MINI website, but it doesn't seem to tell you. I've been through a load of pages, the 'technical data section and the configurator.
Let's be honest, you drove this car for 10 minutes, it's got lots more gears than your old yank tanks, and it prompted you to go on an ill informed rant?
Olivera said:
It would be helpful if you stated the correct year and model (as specs change), and actually knew the correct number of gears that it had. You also stated that 3rd tops out at 'over 90', when in fact it's about 85mph, which is very similar to many manual cars and is reasonably short by todays standards, given some manual Porsches can exceed that in 2nd. I've driven the 7 speed quite a bit and the gearing is actually very good, and in no way long compared to many other modern cars.
Let's be honest, you drove this car for 10 minutes, it's got lots more gears than your old yank tanks, and it prompted you to go on an ill informed rant?
Why are you being a tit like this??? Let's be honest, you drove this car for 10 minutes, it's got lots more gears than your old yank tanks, and it prompted you to go on an ill informed rant?
N.B. you are factually wrong on many counts above.
Depends on what the cars intended use is, but my initial thought is No,
Small engined low powered town cars that never need to be used for commuting would be a yes example.
I am more happy to change gear a split second later, than I am to Rev the engine at 4000 revs on the motorway for 100 miles.
Small engined low powered town cars that never need to be used for commuting would be a yes example.
I am more happy to change gear a split second later, than I am to Rev the engine at 4000 revs on the motorway for 100 miles.
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