Thursday 21st July 2022

Alpine reveals all-electric A110 E-ternité

Finally - an electric car we can all get onboard with. Shame you won't be able to buy one...

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“I want to electrify Alpine to preserve its name for all eternity,” said Luca de Meo when he arrived in the Renault wheelhouse. Obviously there’s a lot to unpack there - not least the absolute certainty that the Alpine name will not survive for eternity - but the comment was apparently sufficient for the newly emboldened division to break out the rubber-handled spanners, and set to the A110 with the intention of replacing its 1.8-litre engine with an all-electric powertrain. The result is the A110 E-ternité - a ‘rolling laboratory’ which is said to point the way to an ambitious future.  

We’ll get to the motor in a moment, but it’s worth pausing here to consider the concept’s other noteworthy feature: a ‘long-awaited’ open roof. Alpine says it wanted to give itself another challenge (although presumably the engineers were also keen to remove as much panel weight as possible) but the outcome, a removable section formed by two roof shells injected with recycled carbon, does make the A110 even cooler. Literally. Alpine says it has also been playing around with flax as an alternative skin in the some of the bodywork - which absolutely is about reducing mass. 

This was a preoccupation because elsewhere the firm had to find room for 392kg of battery pack. The twelve modules were liberated from a Megane E-Tech, but required bespoke battery casings for squeeze them into the A110’s architecture. To achieve the optimum weight distribution, Alpine went with four at the front and eight at the back. Apparently these are positioned in ‘atypical’ fashion, which suggests the engineers have had to squeeze them to just about every available nook and cranny.  

The result though, when mated to a 242hp rear-mounted electric motor, is 0-62mph in 4.5 seconds and a top speed of 155mph alongside a 261-mile range. That doesn’t seem too shabby at all from where we’re sitting - especially as Alpine concedes that, even with the additional savings achieved elsewhere, it has increased the car’s kerbweight by as much as 258kg. It even went to the trouble of adapting the A110’s dual-clutch transmission to work in conjunction with the new e-motor, using ‘clutches dimensioned to pass high torques’. Although it now only boasts two ratios where once there was seven.  

Elsewhere the manufacturer makes a point of highlighting the complexities of making the different electrical systems work together (i.e. the one you get as standard on the A110, and the one needed to deal with all the new gubbins). Apparently a single ECU was installed to ensure smooth transition between the two. It doesn’t go into commensurate detail about the chassis, but this too appears to have been overhauled - or ‘reinforced’ is probably the better description. Certainly the dampers are now courtesy of Ohlins, and the lower arm of the rear wishbone has been strengthened.  

That suggests that Alpine are indeed using the E-ternité ‘to work on electrics in an exploratory way’, and the project doesn’t seem short of in-house innovation. Certainly it’s a fine effort for a first go in terms of conceiving what an electric A110 - and, indeed, the first electric Alpine, period - might look. Of course, it’s unlikely to bear much resemblance to the next-generation model currently being developed in loose partnership with Lotus. That will be a bespoke electric sports car, built on a more appropriate platform. But the firm has talked earnestly about maintaining its DNA come what may; the E-ternité suggests it is putting the time and effort into ensuring that comes true.

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• 2022 Alpine A110 S | PH Review
• Alpine A110 | PH Used Buying Guide

[apx7]

The one thing that's never mentioned nor questioned by reviewers is charge cycles and degradation. Sure having an electric "sports car" is a great eco (debatable) alternative however when driven hard the batteries will deplete incredibly quickly, and thus need recharging, which is more charge cycles than "typical use" as often suggested by manufacturers.

What is (going to be) the price of a replacement battery pack once these become a problem 6~10 years down the road, and the envronmental impact of the old pack (plus new oine).

Edited by apx7 on Thursday 21st July 17:01

[GroundEffect]

apx7 said:

The one thing that's never mentioned nor questioned by reviewers is charge cycles and degradation. Sure having an electric "sports car" is a great eco (debatable) alternative however when driven hard the batteries will deplete incredibly quickly, and thus need recharging, which is more charge cycles than "typical use" as often suggested by manufacturers.

What is (going to be) the price of a replacement battery pack once these become a problem 6~10 years down the road, and the envronmental impact of the old pack (plus new oine).

Edited by apx7 on Thursday 21st July 17:01

Legislation is going through the EU now for legislated state of health of the pack at 8 years. That should help hold OEMs to account.

Actually one of the very biggest (if not the actual biggest) degrading factors on a battery is storing it at high state of charge, not necessarily cycling. You should store at ~50% SoC when not in use. At 100% they age quite quickly, especially at high temps.

[GreatScott2016]

apx7 said:

The one thing that's never mentioned nor questioned by reviewers is charge cycles and degradation. Sure having an electric "sports car" is a great eco (debatable) alternative however when driven hard the batteries will deplete incredibly quickly, and thus need recharging, which is more charge cycles than "typical use" as often suggested by manufacturers.

What is (going to be) the price of a replacement battery pack once these become a problem 6~10 years down the road, and the envronmental impact of the old pack (plus new oine).

Edited by apx7 on Thursday 21st July 17:01

Good points, let’s await responses from those who may just know ...

[McAndy]

apx7 said:

The one thing that's never mentioned nor questioned by reviewers is charge cycles and degradation. Sure having an electric "sports car" is a great eco (debatable) alternative however when driven hard the batteries will deplete incredibly quickly, and thus need recharging, which is more charge cycles than "typical use" as often suggested by manufacturers.

What is (going to be) the price of a replacement battery pack once these become a problem 6~10 years down the road, and the envronmental impact of the old pack (plus new oine).

Edited by apx7 on Thursday 21st July 17:01

Whole packs rarely need replacing. Cells can be individually rectified, unless the failure is catastrophic (as per an ICE timing chain failure, for example).

Anyway, nice work, Alpine. Decent power and range while keeping the mass low compared to the current tranche of EVs. Excited to see what they can do on a bespoke EV platform!

[NDNDNDND]

Well, the existing Alpine's only available as an auto, so a switch to an electric drivetrain is no great loss.

[VR6 Eug]

Up to 261 miles range will be 240 real miles at best taking it easy and now its a really heavy car the lightweight handling will be compromised, so the driving feel will diluted, so a twin test of the petrol version should see the petrol on top for a drivers car and the E110 should be slower around the circuit because it wont stop or handle as well and that's called progress these days!

[leglessAlex]

VR6 Eug said:

Up to 261 miles range will be 240 real miles at best taking it easy and now its a really heavy car the lightweight handling will be compromised, so the driving feel will diluted, so a twin test of the petrol version should see the petrol on top for a drivers car and the E110 should be slower around the circuit because it wont stop or handle as well and that's called progress these days!

Really heavy? It’s lighter than the Emira and current Cayman still, at only 1,350kg or so.

[Olivera]

Interesting, but a few questions that EVers might be able to answer:

1) Just how reduced will the range be if you drive mostly in a spirited manner, or even worse run it on a trackday? 200 miles, 100 miles, less?
2) How will long term battery life be affected by 1 above, as this is a different use-case to most EVs
3) They've junked a cheap parts bin drivetrain (Megane engine with clio DCT gearbox) for an expensive battery pack + motor, won't this be a bit of a problem if it's now a £75k 240bhp EV version?

[Krikkit]

leglessAlex said:

VR6 Eug said:

Up to 261 miles range will be 240 real miles at best taking it easy and now its a really heavy car the lightweight handling will be compromised, so the driving feel will diluted, so a twin test of the petrol version should see the petrol on top for a drivers car and the E110 should be slower around the circuit because it wont stop or handle as well and that's called progress these days!

Really heavy? It’s lighter than the Emira and current Cayman still, at only 1,350kg or so.

Yep even being pessimistic this is a 1400kg car, hardly a lard-arse!

[leglessAlex]

Krikkit said:

leglessAlex said:

VR6 Eug said:

Up to 261 miles range will be 240 real miles at best taking it easy and now its a really heavy car the lightweight handling will be compromised, so the driving feel will diluted, so a twin test of the petrol version should see the petrol on top for a drivers car and the E110 should be slower around the circuit because it wont stop or handle as well and that's called progress these days!

Really heavy? It’s lighter than the Emira and current Cayman still, at only 1,350kg or so.

Yep even being pessimistic this is a 1400kg car, hardly a lard-arse!

They're so specific I think it'll be exactly 258kg on top of the almost exactly 1,100kg that many (most?) A110s come in at. But yes, even allowing for some flexibility this is in line with many competitors cars.

I think the range when 'on it' will be severely compromised, so I don't think it'll be a good track car, but I wouldn't be surprised if it manages 130-140 miles of really fast Sunday morning driving. Might not be enough for many on here, but I think there are a great number of people out there who buy sports cars that would be more than happy with that.

[dogdayafternoon]

apx7 said:

The one thing that's never mentioned nor questioned by reviewers is charge cycles and degradation. Sure having an electric "sports car" is a great eco (debatable) alternative however when driven hard the batteries will deplete incredibly quickly, and thus need recharging, which is more charge cycles than "typical use" as often suggested by manufacturers.

What is (going to be) the price of a replacement battery pack once these become a problem 6~10 years down the road, and the envronmental impact of the old pack (plus new oine).

Edited by apx7 on Thursday 21st July 17:01

Something else that's not mentioned is what happens to electric cars once they've been involved in an accident or broken down.

Obviously a bit of a taboo subject but prospective owners should know that the wheels lock so they cant be towed or driven in limp mode. They usually get craned on to the back of a flatbed. Then they get 'quarantined" in a special section of a qualified garage that can deal with them safely (i.e not electrocute themselves when dealing with the batteries). Parts will also take longer to arrive.

Imagine you live in the UK, own an electric Alpine like this one, and get tapped by a third party in the Alps on the way into Italy. How is all of that going to work and in what future decade are you getting your car back?

[samoht]

Wow, that's really encouraging that they're already able to put together an EV sports car that weighs only 1350kg and has a useful range. Plenty of cars that weigh that sort of amount and are praised to the hills for their driving experience, as long as the weight is in the right place it shouldn't spoil things much at all.

It suggests that the enjoyment of driving doesn't necessarily have to die with the internal combustion engine.

[Sq1rL]

dogdayafternoon said:

Imagine you live in the UK, own an electric Alpine like this one, and get tapped by a third party in the Alps on the way into Italy. How is all of that going to work and in what future decade are you getting your car back?

Let's ignore the whiny "I want people to listen to me, ME, ME" wannabe radgy reddit thread about electric cars and focus on what we know; imagine you own a petrol-powered Alpine and get "tapped" anywhere not close to home? I'd suspect that things wouldn't be much better. With supply chains as they are, I think I'd prefer to crash our imaginary Alpine, electric or otherwise, on the way "into Italy" than in the UK.

Edit: Re. "tapped" - are you Carcoat Damphands writing under a nom de plume?

Edited by Sq1rL on Thursday 21st July 19:31

[Sq1rL]

samoht said:

Wow, that's really encouraging that they're already able to put together an EV sports car that weighs only 1350kg and has a useful range. Plenty of cars that weigh that sort of amount and are praised to the hills for their driving experience, as long as the weight is in the right place it shouldn't spoil things much at all.

It suggests that the enjoyment of driving doesn't necessarily have to die with the internal combustion engine.

The enjoyment will just change, I think; I did miss the sound of combustion when I owned the i3, but the electric motor "warp drive" sound was curiously compelling. The driving experience was brilliant on skinny tyres and low CoG (and a kerb weight of 1390-odd kilos wasn't too shabby either).

To play the devil on my own shoulder: I had a Harley LiveWire for an extended test ride recently. Utterly, completely brilliant, but I'm not sure I can live without the sound and, maybe most importantly, smell of my Aprilia RS250 <3

[dogdayafternoon]

Sq1rL said:

Let's ignore the whiny "I want people to listen to me, ME, ME" wannabe radgy reddit thread about electric cars and focus on what we know; imagine you own a petrol-powered Alpine and get "tapped" anywhere not close to home? I'd suspect that things wouldn't be much better. WIth supply chains as they are, I think I'd prefer to crash our imaginary Alpine, electric or otherwise, on the way "into Italy" than in the UK.

Edit: Re. "tapped" - are you Carcoat Damphands writing under a nom de plume?

Edited by Sq1rL on Thursday 21st July 19:21

Chose the word tapped as I was trying to highlight a situation involving a light collision, or tap, which would render an EV immobile but allow an ICE vehicle to continue moving.

I was actually trying to highlight the massive constraints that EV's are introducing in the logistics / supply chain for manufacturers. If you think about a reduction in available recovery vehicles, qualified garages, technicians, and parts, things are always going to take longer.

You or I will likely get a courtesy car while our imaginary Alpine is in the garage, but the increased complexity of recovering and repairing EVs makes things a lot less, oh whats that word again, sustainable?

[McAndy]

dogdayafternoon said:

Something else that's not mentioned is what happens to electric cars once they've been involved in an accident or broken down.

Obviously a bit of a taboo subject but prospective owners should know that the wheels lock so they cant be towed or driven in limp mode. They usually get craned on to the back of a flatbed. Then they get 'quarantined" in a special section of a qualified garage that can deal with them safely (i.e not electrocute themselves when dealing with the batteries). Parts will also take longer to arrive.

Imagine you live in the UK, own an electric Alpine like this one, and get tapped by a third party in the Alps on the way into Italy. How is all of that going to work and in what future decade are you getting your car back?

Fair points for consideration, however the flatbed isn't a necessity as vans now travel with deployable trailers that can deal with these scenarios, e.g.: https://www.rac.co.uk/innovation/all-wheels-up

For the specialist car example, I feel that a minor incident would affect an ICE Alpine the same as an EV in many cases, particularly if they part share with Méganes.

[kambites]

apx7 said:

The one thing that's never mentioned nor questioned by reviewers is charge cycles and degradation. Sure having an electric "sports car" is a great eco (debatable) alternative however when driven hard the batteries will deplete incredibly quickly, and thus need recharging, which is more charge cycles than "typical use" as often suggested by manufacturers.

I don't think it's an lssie. Most sports cars cover lower mileages than typical mainstream cars, and the loss of economy from spirited driving is far less with an EV than an ICE vehicle because much of the energy which is thrown away through braking on an ICE is regenerated on an EV. I suspect the average number of charge cycles per year of an A110 would be far lower than, say, a Model-3. Also because they tend to be used for shorter trips, the charge cycles will tend to be shallower which also helps keep the batteries in better condition than in cars which are subject to regular deep discharges.

If they don't mess up the battery management, I'd expect the battery in something like this to maintain a good charge capacity for 20+ years of typical use.

Edited by kambites on Thursday 21st July 19:52

[Sq1rL]

dogdayafternoon said:

Chose the word tapped as I was trying to highlight a situation involving a light collision, or tap, which would render an EV immobile but allow an ICE vehicle to continue moving.

I was actually trying to highlight the massive constraints that EV's are introducing in the logistics / supply chain for manufacturers. If you think about a reduction in available recovery vehicles, qualified garages, technicians, and parts, things are always going to take longer.

You or I will likely get a courtesy car while our imaginary Alpine is in the garage, but the increased complexity of recovering and repairing EVs makes things a lot less, oh whats that word again, sustainable?

Your point is well made; both have their weaknesses, of course (Li-ion batteries are a nightmare once a fire has taken hold and driving around with a lightly-pressurised container of combustible fluid carries another set of risks which our emergency services are admittedly better equipped to deal with right now), but a light collision will no more render an EV immobile than any other ICE vehicle. A heavy crash? It's going to be a world of pain, physically and environmentally, no matter what.

Sustainability? Until we have more experience with battery fires and leakage then I'll take the fifth, but my guess (and it is only that, I'm very willing to stand corrected here) is that the cleanup for both scenarios is equally damaging for the environment.

ETA: I would happily own any Alpine - old or new, EV or ICE.

Edited by Sq1rL on Thursday 21st July 20:14

[kambites]

Olivera said:

Interesting, but a few questions that EVers might be able to answer:

1) Just how reduced will the range be if you drive mostly in a spirited manner, or even worse run it on a trackday? 200 miles, 100 miles, less?
2) How will long term battery life be affected by 1 above, as this is a different use-case to most EVs
3) They've junked a cheap parts bin drivetrain (Megane engine with clio DCT gearbox) for an expensive battery pack + motor, won't this be a bit of a problem if it's now a £75k 240bhp EV version?

1) Track driving I suspect you'd be looking at <100 miles, but that's still 40+ laps of most club circuits. Not ideal if you want to take it to the 'ring I guess!
2) Generally it's fast charging, especially fast charging when the battery is nearly full, which causes degradation of Lithium Ion cells. Fast dis-charging is pretty harmless.
3) Assuming similar profit margins, it shouldn't be more than about £10k more expensive than the ICE version, it might well be closer to £5k. Which is still a big chunk, but it wont be £75k unless they feel the market will bear far more profit than they make on the ICE vehicle (which it might).

[Sq1rL]

Olivera said:

1) Just how reduced will the range be if you drive mostly in a spirited manner, or even worse run it on a trackday? 200 miles, 100 miles, less?
2) How will long term battery life be affected by 1 above, as this is a different use-case to most EVs
3) They've junked a cheap parts bin drivetrain (Megane engine with clio DCT gearbox) for an expensive battery pack + motor, won't this be a bit of a problem if it's now a £75k 240bhp EV version?

As an ex-2nd gen EV owner:
1 - it'll be decimated. You'll have lots of fun for not very long and be very sad if you're not close to a fast charger and have a car that can pull top chargerates.
2 - not much; my old i3 (now property of my ex, I needed a diesel for the range - ohhh the sadness and irony) from 2016 is still on its original battery rated at 91% after 113,000 (ish) KM.
3 - haven't been there, but the lack of moving parts and general longevity make the motor cheap to replace. Not so sure about the battery though.

ETA: I love all vehicles no matter what propels them. Let's embrace change (it's coming, like it or not), bask in the present and fondly remember the past.

Edited by Sq1rL on Thursday 21st July 20:19