RE: Westfield SEIW | The Brave Pill
RE: Westfield SEIW | The Brave Pill
Saturday 7th January 2023

Westfield SEIW | The Brave Pill

One Q we wouldn't mind joining


Many new year’s resolutions revolve around the desire to lead a healthier and purer life, such feelings often triggered by the superabundance of overindulgence that marks the festive season. To get into the Spartan spirit, Brave Pill is starting 2023 with the equivalent of a bracing dip into a frozen pond. Cars don’t get much purer and less complex than a Westfield.

But while the capacity for thrills in something with such a compelling power-to-weight ratio is obvious, the risk of spills is less apparent in a vehicle that lacks pretty much everything. Can a car with so little to go wrong really be considered even slightly courageous? It’s a point we will circle back to later, but the fact this is the first Brave Pill to be wearing a Q-registration plate should mean the jury will have to at least debate for a few minutes before bringing in a guilty verdict.

Westfield has long lived in the shadow of Caterham, but beyond their early legal tussles the two companies have long been aimed at substantially different audiences. Caterham acquired the rights to continue to build what had been the Lotus Seven in 1973, with Westfield being one of several outfits that sprang up to offer very similar cars without official sanction. In the case of Westfield these were similar enough to bring the threat of legal action from Caterham, with the newer company then agreeing substantial changes to better distinguish the two ranges.

The need to be different created some interesting new directions, with Westfield liberated to try new things. Much of the new thinking centred on squeezing in new powerplants, with the company quickly broadening its offering beyond the previous range of mainstream four-pots. The most infamous new engine was the Rover V8 that was somehow squeezed between the Westfield’s chassis rails to create the monstrous SEiGHT, but there were also a series of motorbike-donor engines and even a few turbodiesels.

There were other changes, too – Westfield offering the choice between independent rear suspension and a live rear axle, plus the option of a widened chassis ahead of Caterham offering one. For much of Westfield’s post-litigation existence, the company’s unofficial motto seemed to be “yes, now what’s the question?”

The a la carte attitude was well suited to the fact that most Westfields were always sold as kits to be built by their owners, something obviously tolerant of making changes. But it also meant that no two Westfields were ever completely the same, with much down to the care and attention with which they had been assembled.

The quicker ones were always pretty terrifying. In a classic example of starting at the top, the first Westfield I drove was the factory’s SEiGHT demonstrator. I was a lowly teaboy charged with driving this to a photoshoot rather than delivering a full Troy Queef verdict, and within a couple of miles of picking it up from Kingswinford I was struggling to see through a misted windscreen, one my sleeve was completely unable to clear. Stopping revealed that the problem lay on the other side of the glass, with the V8 huffing out clouds of unburned petrol under acceleration. Shortly afterwards I discovered, on a damp dual carriageway, that the SEiGHT was also capable of spinning its rear wheels in fourth gear, well before the accelerator reached its stop. Then there was the Hayabusa-engined one with a clutch mechanism that would make a mousetrap look smooth and progressive, plus the adrenaline-spiking tendency to yaw sideways under hard braking.

For years my presumption was that, as these were cars being sent out for media drives, they must have been carefully prepared and that the home-built one would therefore be much shonkier. Then I did a story with a specialist dealer in lightweight sports cars who cheerfully admitted he would much rather buy a carefully assembled kit-made Westfield than one of the company’s own efforts, which he reckoned were usually pretty slapdash.

By Westfield standards of spiciness, our Pill is pretty mild. It is a wide-body chassis that was first registered in 1998, with the advert’s claim of a RS2000 engine referring to a Pinto from a Mk2 Escort rather than the 16v Zetec from the much rarer Mk5 RS2000. That is confirmed by the presence of four intake trumpets from a pair of Weber carburettors peeking out from the side of the bonnet, along with the advert’s claim of a recent new camshaft (singular). While the dealer doesn’t make any detailed performance claims, even a well-tuned fast road Pinto isn’t going to be throwing out more than about 170hp, which shouldn’t feel hairy even working against a kerbweight of about 620kg. Mechanical spec includes a limited-slip differential, adjustable coil-over suspension with Spax dampers, modern Team Dynamics alloys and what the dealer promises is a brand-new set of Toyo Proxes tyres.

It looks great in the pictures. Presuming our Pill hasn’t spent the last quarter century in suspended animation it has been brought back up to what looks like as-new condition, with smart yellow bodywork, equally vibrant sunburst pattern sport seats and a spangely stainless steel side-exit exhaust. It is also being sold with a full seat of weather gear, although the fact it has only managed to cover 12,000 miles in 24 years suggests that previous owners haven’t been treating it as a daily driver.

The online MOT history backs up the gentle rate of mileage acquisition – between 2010 and 2016 it averaged just 400 miles a year. It was then off the road until May 2020, but has managed no fewer than four clean tickets since then, the most recent noting nothing scarier than slight play in the nearside front wheel bearing.

In truth, the bravest thing about this car is likely the fact it wears a Q plate. Officially this means nothing more than that it has an indeterminate age, likely the result of being registered from a 1998 kit using parts from a much earlier donor car. But for many it will always be a mark of shame, triggering memories of dodgy salvage specials – and even in these enlightened times some insurance companies will still flatly refused to cover cars wearing one. Your attitude to such things will likely determine your wider opinion of the car itself. The registration might be undesirable, but everything else seems right.


See the original advert here

 

 

Author
Discussion

Portofino

Original Poster:

5,381 posts

221 months

Saturday 7th January 2023
quotequote all
Many thrills for the price & this one looks very tidy.

Must admit when I had mine it needed to be a non Q plate, but not sure I’m bothered about that now.

Belle427

11,977 posts

263 months

Saturday 7th January 2023
quotequote all
Great fun but a bit pointless in this country with our weather.

Jordie Barretts sock

6,018 posts

49 months

Saturday 7th January 2023
quotequote all
Belle427 said:
Great fun but a bit pointless in this country with our weather.
Utterly ridiculous statement and missing the point of these cars completely. In fact, missing the point of any drophead car.

Fantastic bit of kit for the money. If I didn't already have a TVR taking up space in the garage, this would be in there.

Gad-Westy

16,613 posts

243 months

Saturday 7th January 2023
quotequote all
Had two narrow bodied Westfields in my younger days. Both Q plate. It never really occurred to me that I should care about that. Not sure it does now either. To further add to the evidence that this one is indeed a pinto, it's exhaust is on the driver side. Zetec would be on the other side. On the plus side the exhaust holes in the bodywork are also on the correct side for a duratec conversion.

Totally disagree that these are pointless in the UK. They're not intended to be a daily driver. I know some lunatics do that but most people will be saving them for blowing off the cob webs on dry days of which the UK has plenty even if it doesn't seem like it sometimes. Personally for me, that would also mean, I'd just ditch the windscreen, carpets and weather gear and embrace the rawness. I prefer them like that and it removes the need for wipers, demister etc so less to go wrong and less weight. I hate the single roll hoop too. Utterly pointlss and I'm amazed ho many Westfields and other Sevenalikes have that. Even if it were tall enough to protect you, it would fold flat in an instant. Plenty of better options available though.

One of the biggest appeals of these types of cars for me is how easy they're to work on. Everything is where you'd expect it to be and easy to get at. It's no wonder many end up being tinkered with more than driven. It's part of the fun.

Naturally there will be plenty of comparisons drawn with Caterhams but I don't think you can buy even the ropiest of Caterham for this money any more. £15k seems to be the entry point these days. There are good reasons to buy a Caterham and if I was buying a Seven Type car again, I might have done so, but Westfield have always offered a more stomach-able entry point into this world and if you are happy to get your hands a bit dirty, you can pretty much mould any of them into any spec you fancy.

I think for this money though, I might have chosen this one. If you're going to have a silly car, may as well make it really silly.

https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/14382742

Edited by Gad-Westy on Saturday 7th January 07:15

Mabbs9

1,679 posts

248 months

Saturday 7th January 2023
quotequote all
I had a pre-lit 7SE with a live axle. It was a really enjoyable simple car. My first car too, no heater either so not massively practical.

I moved over to Caterham many years later. I prefer the Caterham but the Westfield was way cheaper and was certainly great value for the fun it delivered.

This one looks pretty good to me for what it's worth.

Equus

16,980 posts

131 months

Saturday 7th January 2023
quotequote all
The Pinto is the least desirable engine there is for one of these, bar none, which actually makes the price rather strong (as you'd expect from a dealer like Toybox).

There are cheaper, better-specced cars out there if you look for them.

Belle427

11,977 posts

263 months

Saturday 7th January 2023
quotequote all
Jordie Barretts sock said:
Belle427 said:
Great fun but a bit pointless in this country with our weather.
Utterly ridiculous statement and missing the point of these cars completely. In fact, missing the point of any drophead car.

Fantastic bit of kit for the money. If I didn't already have a TVR taking up space in the garage, this would be in there.
Most dropheads are quite practical, the roofs can be put up/down in 30 seconds from the comfort of your seat.
The Tvr panel takes what around 2 minutes if it’s in the boot?
A good friend of mine has a V8 Westfield that was up for sale last year and I had the pleasure of using it for a few months whilst doing some work on it. No doubt it’s a fabulous thing but I had a space in my garage at the time and wasn’t really persuaded to buy it.

CalisenQX

218 posts

103 months

Saturday 7th January 2023
quotequote all
This car has been advertised for about 2 years!! It was on the shortlist when I was buying then… not sure how often Toybox update their stock on PH - but my guess is very rarely…. Or they never sell any cars!

Either way, looks good value for money but probably not the model I’d buy.

ajprice

33,492 posts

226 months

Saturday 7th January 2023
quotequote all
Jordie Barretts sock said:
Belle427 said:
Great fun but a bit pointless in this country with our weather.
Utterly ridiculous statement and missing the point of these cars completely. In fact, missing the point of any drophead car.
yes inappropriate convertibles are the British way...

Bill Bailey said:
In Britain we have the highest per-capita ownership of convertible cars in Europe.

That is preposterous optimism, right there.

When you see a couple with the top down in July, their faces contorted in a rictus of optimism, as the horizontal hail drills into their retinas...

"It's clearing up, it's clearing up."
hehe

Griffith4ever

6,995 posts

65 months

Saturday 7th January 2023
quotequote all
Equus said:
The Pinto is the least desirable engine there is for one of these, bar none, which actually makes the price rather strong (as you'd expect from a dealer like Toybox).

There are cheaper, better-specced cars out there if you look for them.
My thoughts entirely, and I've owned three. For fast and not too mad, ztec is a far better option. Even a vauxhall 2.0 will be better.

I appreciate the rs2000 was top of its game at the time but still....



Griffith4ever

6,995 posts

65 months

Saturday 7th January 2023
quotequote all
Belle427 said:
Jordie Barretts sock said:
Belle427 said:
Great fun but a bit pointless in this country with our weather.
Utterly ridiculous statement and missing the point of these cars completely. In fact, missing the point of any drophead car.

Fantastic bit of kit for the money. If I didn't already have a TVR taking up space in the garage, this would be in there.
Most dropheads are quite practical, the roofs can be put up/down in 30 seconds from the comfort of your seat.
The Tvr panel takes what around 2 minutes if it’s in the boot?
A good friend of mine has a V8 Westfield that was up for sale last year and I had the pleasure of using it for a few months whilst doing some work on it. No doubt it’s a fabulous thing but I had a space in my garage at the time and wasn’t really persuaded to buy it.
Most people who have a westie have it in a garage.

Nice day? Yay! Blat in the westie.
Not nice day? Drive usual car.

UK is surprisingly dry most of the time. March onwards, right into sept can be some lovely roof down driving days. I didn't ever put the roof on my Griffith (garaged, of course!)

Turbobanana

8,493 posts

231 months

Saturday 7th January 2023
quotequote all
Belle427 said:
Great fun but a bit pointless in this country with our weather.
<checks he hasn't clicked on Mumsnet by mistake> I owned a convertible for 21 years and the number of times I drove it with the hood up didn't quite get into double figures.

Westfield looks good: if I had spotted it in September when I bought my GT6 I would have had a look at this. Not a brave pill though.

sideways man

1,674 posts

167 months

Saturday 7th January 2023
quotequote all
I’ve had two, and loved them both! The first which I used daily, was a narrow body with independent suspension and was my favourite. It was much more agile than the later wide body, I’d have another of those , but that’s now an old car; although there’s not much involved in a full rebuild…..

Ah;the advert. Too expensive for a pinto car, it really is the least desirable engine.

Draxindustries1

1,657 posts

53 months

Saturday 7th January 2023
quotequote all
Equus said:
The Pinto is the least desirable engine there is for one of these, bar none, which actually makes the price rather strong (as you'd expect from a dealer like Toybox).

There are cheaper, better-specced cars out there if you look for them.
They're a very strong engine. They don't suffer head gasket issues or anything of the like and are extremely easy and cheap to repair.
A cambelt can be done in 45 minutes and any other service parts are cheap and plentiful.
This one has been put together with longevity in mind.
A non complex car like a Westfield with this power unit is far from being a Brave Pill..


Equus

16,980 posts

131 months

Saturday 7th January 2023
quotequote all
Draxindustries1 said:
They're a very strong engine.
So is a Massey Ferguson diesel. It doesn't make them in any way suitable for an ultra-lightweight sportscar (and yes, I'm aware or the myth that early Triumph TR's had Massey engines.

Draxindustries1 said:
They don't suffer head gasket issues or anything of the like...
Actually, they do: they're notorious for clogging up their oil spraybars (and then eating their own camshafts), and they are prone to blowing head gaskets and burning pistons if you get the iginition timing or fueling wrong.

They were cheap and (relatively) tough back in their day, but their day was the 1970's and 80's, and even then they played second fiddle to engines like the Kent Crossflow, Fiat Twin Cam and Alfa Twin Cam for any sort of sporting use.

These days, their use is best reserved for anchoring boats.

AC43

13,656 posts

238 months

Saturday 7th January 2023
quotequote all
That's cheered up a rainy Saturday morning.

When I was younger I'd have dismissed that for not having the V8 but, having read the comments from owners, a 2.0 four is clearly plenty enough for something that light.

Must be an absolute hoot on a B road on a balmy summer's day.

Portofino

Original Poster:

5,381 posts

221 months

Saturday 7th January 2023
quotequote all
The engine argument has been done to death but a well specced twin 45 Pinto will be as torquey as it is powerful & thumps you up the road & sounds like a light aircraft taking off.

The Pinto championship still runs every year as it offers decent reliable weekend racing.

So don’t be put off by one.


Quinten

1,172 posts

271 months

Saturday 7th January 2023
quotequote all
The author clearly has a lot of knowledge on Westfields, but this example is wrong on so many levels.

1) advertised by Toybox, which if you call them, will tell you that "the car has been sold already, but we have this other one available"
2) a Pinto for £10K? with a cosmetic rollbar? Overpriced by about £3K
3) a Q plate is only frowned upon by those who still think of Skoda as an alternative for a skip. The benefit of a Q plate on a kit car is that there is no emissions check at MOT time. And that alone is a good enough reason to desire one.

getmecoat

Iamnotkloot

1,915 posts

177 months

Saturday 7th January 2023
quotequote all
Belle427 said:
Great fun but a bit pointless in this country with our weather.
So I should throw my motorbike in a lake then?
There are plenty of dry days and even more with only some light showers. This kind of car is like a more practical motorbike!

Wacky Racer

41,388 posts

277 months

Saturday 7th January 2023
quotequote all
Draxindustries1 said:
Equus said:
The Pinto is the least desirable engine there is for one of these, bar none, which actually makes the price rather strong (as you'd expect from a dealer like Toybox).

There are cheaper, better-specced cars out there if you look for them.
They're a very strong engine. They don't suffer head gasket issues or anything of the like and are extremely easy and cheap to repair.
A cambelt can be done in 45 minutes and any other service parts are cheap and plentiful.
This one has been put together with longevity in mind.
A non complex car like a Westfield with this power unit is far from being a Brave Pill..
I've had a Westfield and a Tiger Supersix, both fitted with 2 litre Pintos.

Plus, I've had Seirras, Granadas, 3 Capri's fitted with them, over 200.000 miles without a single problem, (Even camshafts). Great engine.

Just make sure the oil & filter is changed every 6,000 miles.