So hard as necessary, so soft as possible
Discussion
The other day a colleague sent me this image from a track test of the new Civic Type R FL5:
This reminded me of that quote in the thread title from a vehicle dynamics engineer from a (not so) beloved manufacturer in this forum.
He would tune the “base” setting based on this philosophy and would make the “sportier” setting harder than necessary “because the client wants to feel the difference when they press that “Sport” button”.
So, I wonder if, as much as people here complains about suspensions that are too hard, the general public want to feel that (supossed) sportiness?
This reminded me of that quote in the thread title from a vehicle dynamics engineer from a (not so) beloved manufacturer in this forum.
He would tune the “base” setting based on this philosophy and would make the “sportier” setting harder than necessary “because the client wants to feel the difference when they press that “Sport” button”.
So, I wonder if, as much as people here complains about suspensions that are too hard, the general public want to feel that (supossed) sportiness?
There must be a multitude of variables to deal with before one can conclude definitively that soft suspension on an adjustable vehicle is faster around a track.
A few that come to mind:
Track surface
Driver
How the suspension settings work
The basic design and componentry of the non adjustable part of the suspension
Just within only one of these parameters, there will be the possibility of favouring either end of the suspension adjustment settings.
A few that come to mind:
Track surface
Driver
How the suspension settings work
The basic design and componentry of the non adjustable part of the suspension
Just within only one of these parameters, there will be the possibility of favouring either end of the suspension adjustment settings.
Mr Tidy said:
I just wish manufacturers made an effort to make a car that works properly in all conditions without "needing" daft modes and adaptive suspension that costs stupid money when it inevitably fails out of warranty. 
When looking for my current car I purposely avoided any models with IVDC (ie the switchable adaptive suspension) fantastic I'm sure when new but an absolute fortune to replace when they inevitably fail. Typically however I found out the self-levelling dampers mine are fitted with at the back are just as bad, £500ea!
That said, while I would *never* buy one[1] I do love the idea of the Multimatic TrueActive Spool Valve (TASV) Damper suspension fitted to the Ferrari Purosangue.
I also avoided 19in wheels primarily on a cost basis[2] but also on a comfort basis. A few times I've even been tempted to try and pick up some 17in just to fit higher sidewall tyres our roads are so bad these days.
[1] Ignoring for a second that I could only buy one if I sold my house and lived in it...but I'd never buy an SUV so even if I was to win massively big on the lottery I wouldn't.
[2]The tyres at the time being ~£100ea more expensive for equivalent tyres. Admittedly as 19in have become more popular, they're only £33ea more expensive now...so it's not as bad as it was but that's still an extra ~£66-£132 every tyre change.
I suspect that a racing driver will always be quickest (after some familiarisation with the car) in whatever mode keeps the tyres in best contact with the road, whether that be granite mode, regular or marshmallow mode. Overly hard suspension will skip across sub-optimal surfaces.
For a regular driver, a firmer suspension may inspire more confidence to carry more speed in to and out of corners, so may be faster.
For a regular driver, a firmer suspension may inspire more confidence to carry more speed in to and out of corners, so may be faster.
Mr Tidy said:
I just wish manufacturers made an effort to make a car that works properly in all conditions without "needing" daft modes and adaptive suspension that costs stupid money when it inevitably fails out of warranty.
They do, but adaptive systems give you some additional control, any passive suspension will be a compromise.Not really heard of folk have massive problems with them to be honest, I had a Mercedes with Airmatic and had to replace the pump but thats probably more complex than a lot of systems.
I think people like to feel their dynamic driving style warrants sportiness, while they do 45mph everywhere and sit in L2 of the motorway at 68mph.
Stuff like cooking Audis and "R line" or whatever it is versions of VW stuff mystifies me, all the downsides of "sporty" with bad ride and easy to break wheels, but when you press on they're crap and as much fun as a boot in the groin. Pure affectation.
Stuff like cooking Audis and "R line" or whatever it is versions of VW stuff mystifies me, all the downsides of "sporty" with bad ride and easy to break wheels, but when you press on they're crap and as much fun as a boot in the groin. Pure affectation.
StRemy said:
The other day a colleague sent me this image from a track test of the new Civic Type R FL5:
This reminded me of that quote in the thread title from a vehicle dynamics engineer from a (not so) beloved manufacturer in this forum.
He would tune the “base” setting based on this philosophy and would make the “sportier” setting harder than necessary “because the client wants to feel the difference when they press that “Sport” button”.
So, I wonder if, as much as people here complains about suspensions that are too hard, the general public want to feel that (supossed) sportiness?
It's just lazy engineering. This reminded me of that quote in the thread title from a vehicle dynamics engineer from a (not so) beloved manufacturer in this forum.
He would tune the “base” setting based on this philosophy and would make the “sportier” setting harder than necessary “because the client wants to feel the difference when they press that “Sport” button”.
So, I wonder if, as much as people here complains about suspensions that are too hard, the general public want to feel that (supossed) sportiness?
Suspensions stiff so it's obviously sporty.
donkmeister said:
I suspect that a racing driver will always be quickest (after some familiarisation with the car) in whatever mode keeps the tyres in best contact with the road, whether that be granite mode, regular or marshmallow mode. Overly hard suspension will skip across sub-optimal surfaces.
For a regular driver, a firmer suspension may inspire more confidence to carry more speed in to and out of corners, so may be faster.
Yeah, I mean just look at the setup Ash Sutton had on the Infiniti BTCC car! For a regular driver, a firmer suspension may inspire more confidence to carry more speed in to and out of corners, so may be faster.
Edited by Speed Badger on Monday 13th March 17:38
Mr Tidy said:
I just wish manufacturers made an effort to make a car that works properly in all conditions without "needing" daft modes and adaptive suspension that costs stupid money when it inevitably fails out of warranty.
Lotus were good at this, add more lightness resolves many problems.I have no real insight, but I suspect many vehicle sign offs are a compromise between engineering excellence and marketing’s view.
I don’t blame marketing, after all you can be an excellent engineering department, but you will not have a company if know one buys your product. I lay the blame at frothing motoring journalists endlessly trying to find a new way of describing steering feel and confusing ride quality with pastimes involving a competitive nature.
What Sport is it that a firmer suspended car is undertaking that a softer one is not? Is body roll and yaw a sport? Absolutely Poppycock all this “sports suspension set up”, utter b
ks!
I don’t blame marketing, after all you can be an excellent engineering department, but you will not have a company if know one buys your product. I lay the blame at frothing motoring journalists endlessly trying to find a new way of describing steering feel and confusing ride quality with pastimes involving a competitive nature.
What Sport is it that a firmer suspended car is undertaking that a softer one is not? Is body roll and yaw a sport? Absolutely Poppycock all this “sports suspension set up”, utter b
ks!As long as the "comfort" setting is good, does it matter if the "sports" setting is rubbish? No-one forces anyone to use it; it's just there to sell cars to people who believe that to be sporty something has to be uncomfortable. At least with an active setup they can give you the choice rather than making the only setting unnecessarily stiff "because sporty!".
What's annoying is when the comfort setting is horribly under-damped, the sports setting is horribly over-damped, and there's no option for anything in the middle.
What's annoying is when the comfort setting is horribly under-damped, the sports setting is horribly over-damped, and there's no option for anything in the middle.
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