RE: Toyota Gazoo Racing reveals hydrogen concept
RE: Toyota Gazoo Racing reveals hydrogen concept
Saturday 10th June 2023

Toyota Gazoo Racing reveals hydrogen concept

A hydrogen-powered Toyota will be at Le Mans by 2026 - and look something like the GR H2


Nobody could accuse Toyota of lacking commitment when it comes to using hydrogen to power cars. The Mirai is one of very, very few commercially available fuel cell electric vehicles, and the manufacturer has also shown what’s possible using hydrogen as a fuel for conventional engines. Since 2021 it has been racing a Corolla in Super Taikyu that’s hydrogen fuelled, and that car finished the Fuji 24 Hours earlier this year. Additionally, it’s taken the time to show that both the GR Yaris triple and Lexus 5.0 V8 can run on H2. So when the ACO said that hydrogen racers - either fuelled by it, or powering a fuel cell - could enter from 2026, you knew Toyota would be first out of the blocks with a preview.

This is the GR H2 Racing Concept which, well, looks a lot like a Toyota prototype racer. It’s low, long and sleek, the driver sits in a canopy and aero is clearly the name of the game. All sounds very obvious, of course, but then very little has actually been said so far about the GR. Toyota has confirmed the hydrogen engine and hybrid system, that it’s 5.1m long and 2.05m wide and, er, that’s it. The press release doesn’t even have anything interesting from Akio Toyoda, often so dependable when it comes to useful insight or enthusiasm. On the centenary of Le Mans, he expressed ‘his gratitude’ to the ACO ‘for the opportunity to hone cars through the race’. Yawn.

We’ve really got to look to the future, then. Following the introduction of a hydrogen class in 2026, the ACO expects all racers to be using it as fuel by 2030. The manufacturers will be encouraged to do so before then through - you’ve guessed it - Balance of Performance, which would mean that an H2 car could win outright before the decade is out. So no wonder Toyota is keen to show what it can do. Having enjoyed so much success in the hybrid era - a TS050 won Le Mans in 2018, 2019 and 2020, a GR010 in ’21 and ’22 - Toyota will understandably want to repeat those triumphs as the sportscar formula evolves further. And if it can bolster the hydrogen road car cause, then all the better.

Because that’s the end game, really. Toyota has been vocal in its multi-faceted approach to a carbon-neutral world (or as close to it as is possible), with hydrogen one of the avenues it’s pursuing to reduce emissions. A successful motorsport campaign could help convince the wider world of hydrogen’s viability going forward; prove it can fuel an exciting racing car and be replenished without too much kerfuffle and half the battle is won, surely. Or at least it suggests a. viable alternative to the battery-electric alternative. And if nothing else, the GR H2 Racing Concept, along with everything else Toyota is doing in motorsport, demonstrates that a top-tier hydrogen competition car isn’t far away. Given Toyota’s recent form in racing, that’s a prospect to be very excited about.


Author
Discussion

LasseV

Original Poster:

1,767 posts

152 months

Friday 9th June 2023
quotequote all
Nice! It will be very interesting to see which powertrain is the new king, h2 ice or FCEV.

And then we wait EV-loonies.

C.A.R.

3,983 posts

207 months

Friday 9th June 2023
quotequote all
LasseV said:
Nice! It will be very interesting to see which powertrain is the new king, h2 ice or FCEV.

And then we wait EV-loonies.
H2 just doesn't make sense for a broad application in personal transport. In a motorsport environment, it probably makes more sense - smaller production volume, faster to refuel vs. current battery technology etc.

Appreciate that there is a lot of noise out there regarding Green H2, but it's a fallacy for the personal motorcar, a net-loss in energy vs. just putting the same electricity into a battery car.

It's easy to see where the naivety can creep in.


D4rez

1,668 posts

75 months

Friday 9th June 2023
quotequote all
Mmm looks explosive. Bless Toyota, they’ve already had to eat humble pie and invest $5bn in batteries to catch back up and comply with legislation that moved faster than them

86wasagoodyear

805 posts

115 months

Friday 9th June 2023
quotequote all
Hope we'll see this in Le Mans Garage 56 in the next couple of years

FaustF

788 posts

173 months

Friday 9th June 2023
quotequote all
Very cool looking forward to this!

tr3a

619 posts

246 months

Friday 9th June 2023
quotequote all
LasseV said:
EV-loonies.
Really desperate to disqualify whatever you said with a mindless ad hominem, eh?

unsprung

6,034 posts

143 months

Friday 9th June 2023
quotequote all

C.A.R. said:
H2 just doesn't make sense for a broad application in personal transport.
Unfortunate but true.

While It's exciting to see engineers imagine H2 powertrains in various one-off vehicles, we've been round the houses on this topic a number of times.

As engineers and industry types on PH have noted in other threads, there are fundamental obstacles, fundamental laws of physics, that would render personal-transport-based H2, whether fuel cells or internal combustion, a veritable Brabazon meets W. Heath Robinson.


pheonix478

3,535 posts

57 months

Friday 9th June 2023
quotequote all
Is it going to have cryogenic fuel tanks? Without doing the calcs so off the top of my head, I'm struggling to see how it is even remotely possible to package enough range/volume of ambient temperature tanks in an LMP chassis...

Terminator X

18,606 posts

223 months

Friday 9th June 2023
quotequote all
unsprung said:
C.A.R. said:
H2 just doesn't make sense for a broad application in personal transport.
Unfortunate but true.

While It's exciting to see engineers imagine H2 powertrains in various one-off vehicles, we've been round the houses on this topic a number of times.

As engineers and industry types on PH have noted in other threads, there are fundamental obstacles, fundamental laws of physics, that would render personal-transport-based H2, whether fuel cells or internal combustion, a veritable Brabazon meets W. Heath Robinson.
Why are Toyota pursuing it then? As is often said in other threads perhaps they know better than the PH Massive ...

TX.

pheonix478

3,535 posts

57 months

Friday 9th June 2023
quotequote all
Terminator X said:
Why are Toyota pursuing it then? As is often said in other threads perhaps they know better than the PH Massive ...

TX.
The question you should ask is how much, of their own money, have they put into HICE compared to BEV. That will tell you how serious they are about it. I don't know the answer but I think it's pretty obvious one is orders of magnitude bigger than the other.

Dingu

4,893 posts

49 months

Friday 9th June 2023
quotequote all
Terminator X said:
unsprung said:
C.A.R. said:
H2 just doesn't make sense for a broad application in personal transport.
Unfortunate but true.

While It's exciting to see engineers imagine H2 powertrains in various one-off vehicles, we've been round the houses on this topic a number of times.

As engineers and industry types on PH have noted in other threads, there are fundamental obstacles, fundamental laws of physics, that would render personal-transport-based H2, whether fuel cells or internal combustion, a veritable Brabazon meets W. Heath Robinson.
Why are Toyota pursuing it then? As is often said in other threads perhaps they know better than the PH Massive ...

TX.
And better than almost every other manufacturer on the planet? Seems a touch unlikely.

CT-2017

13 posts

29 months

Friday 9th June 2023
quotequote all
Dingu said:
And better than almost every other manufacturer on the planet? Seems a touch unlikely.
Toyota has been leading car company for so long that whosoever think Toyota are wasting money on their fuel-cell and combustion engines running on H2 should start to think again.
And think better next time!

pheonix478

3,535 posts

57 months

Friday 9th June 2023
quotequote all
CT-2017 said:
Toyota has been leading car company for so long that whosoever think Toyota are wasting money on their fuel-cell and combustion engines running on H2 should start to think again.
And think better next time!
Hmmm. Sadly, and I genuinely mean that, HICE is almost certainly wishful thinking unless we come up with an almost inexhaustible supply of cheap green energy. Toyota know this. It's why all of their announcements to date have been consortia of multiple companies with funding in the tens of millions covered in large part by government "green" grants. Meanwhile, last month, they announced and extra $7bn in BEV development. They probably spend more on photocopy paper than they've invested/wasted on HICE.

For the manufacturers racing is marketing. That's what this car is and if and when it races it will no doubt steal the show regardless how it does. That's why they're doing it. By all means support it, I will be because it's cool, but I'll be staggered if it ever leads to a meaningful HICE/HFC offering.

Edited by pheonix478 on Friday 9th June 21:10

The Wookie

14,172 posts

247 months

Friday 9th June 2023
quotequote all
Terminator X said:
Why are Toyota pursuing it then? As is often said in other threads perhaps they know better than the PH Massive ...

TX.
Because it’s peanuts to a $350 billion turnover company and a risk averse Japanese mindset will justify it based on covering every base just in case they’re wrong on their primary strategy.

It’s not exclusive to the Japanese either, years ago in my old job I worked on a novel ICE tech project for a major German OEM that cost them millions but the basic cost/complexity against benefit made it so obviously pointless from virtually the outset that no sane person would ever believe it would make it past basic simulation. It made it all the way to running prototype because it was one relatively small legacy department spending their sizeable budget to justify their existence.

Fuel cells may well have useful applications in heavier vehicles in the future but not in typical cars or motorsport and hydrogen ICE just is not useful and probably never will be.

gruppeb86

596 posts

32 months

Friday 9th June 2023
quotequote all
I do enjoy reading these forums. Not once has anyone made mention of Synthetic fuels. Now., all I know is a) It can allow the continuation of the much loved ICE and b) It will be implemented in F1 from 2026. Tell me, what has derived from GT racing to the road, by comparison to F1? In short, I feel we need to be looking at F1 for the future! Don't you? That said, beit GT or F1, motor racing seems to be going through a bit of a renaissance in regard to manufacturer involvement, which is great.

Dingu

4,893 posts

49 months

Friday 9th June 2023
quotequote all
CT-2017 said:
Dingu said:
And better than almost every other manufacturer on the planet? Seems a touch unlikely.
Toyota has been leading car company for so long that whosoever think Toyota are wasting money on their fuel-cell and combustion engines running on H2 should start to think again.
And think better next time!
Funny how they are playing catch up on BEVs then if they are so far ahead…

Might wanna take your own advice.

donteatpeople

859 posts

293 months

Saturday 10th June 2023
quotequote all
I wonder how they’re going to balance the performance, tiny petrol tanks perhaps?

D4rez

1,668 posts

75 months

Saturday 10th June 2023
quotequote all
gruppeb86 said:
I do enjoy reading these forums. Not once has anyone made mention of Synthetic fuels. Now., all I know is a) It can allow the continuation of the much loved ICE and b) It will be implemented in F1 from 2026. Tell me, what has derived from GT racing to the road, by comparison to F1? In short, I feel we need to be looking at F1 for the future! Don't you? That said, beit GT or F1, motor racing seems to be going through a bit of a renaissance in regard to manufacturer involvement, which is great.
Not especially;

1. F1 racing doesn’t require huge volumes of fuels so the infinitesimally small volumes of these fuels that will be available now and in the future are ok.
2. F1 is a spectacle not transport so needs sound
3. F1 doesn’t have a tailpipe emissions ban like road cars do so they can continue to burn things whereas e-fuels are part of certainly the U.K. ban (new cars)
4. Energy required to run a full race is not compatible with the volumetric energy density of current battery technology
5. All of the above are the reason why e-fuels work for racing but not road

Having said all of that most of the emissions in F1 come from logistics, manufacture, air travel etc so it’s super irrelevant to lower the race car CO2. Their series technical guy Pat Fry confessed it was only 0.7% of their total footprint. They should carry on with petrol but it doesn’t have the same greenwashing potential so there you go. With transport and logistics of the synth fuel from the green hydro production locale it likely ends up dirtier

pheonix478

3,535 posts

57 months

Saturday 10th June 2023
quotequote all
gruppeb86 said:
I do enjoy reading these forums. Not once has anyone made mention of Synthetic fuels. Now., all I know is a) It can allow the continuation of the much loved ICE and b) It will be implemented in F1 from 2026. Tell me, what has derived from GT racing to the road, by comparison to F1? In short, I feel we need to be looking at F1 for the future! Don't you? That said, beit GT or F1, motor racing seems to be going through a bit of a renaissance in regard to manufacturer involvement, which is great.
synthetic/efuels have been discussed many times. Absent vast amounts of dirt cheap green electricity to create them, the price will always be way more than other forms of energy for personal transport, plus, like HICE, they still pollute at the point of use. efuels, if they ever take off, will be so expensive they will remain the preserve of planes, classic ICE and motorsport.

nismo48

5,736 posts

226 months

Saturday 10th June 2023
quotequote all
Interesting thing and if it works on track then could be entertaining wink