A Class - oil loss after dealer service
Discussion
My Mum has a 2019 Mercedes A Class. Had it serviced at Mercedes main dealer, then on drive home engine light comes on. Drove to petrol station and oil leaking out of sump.
Put in litre of oil that came straight out the bottom (inferring the the sump was empty?)
Recovery man says that the sump plug is very loose and engine has no oil.
Recovery company took the car to the dealership.
What is her recourse? Should she get a written statement from the recovery company (not sure if AA, RAC etc)?
Should she reject the car outright and ask for market value plus compensation?
Should she get a high Street solicitor to help draft a letter?
How likely are Mercedes to just settle?
What I am trying to avoid is Mercedes giving her a bunch of flowers and telling her it's fine.
Put in litre of oil that came straight out the bottom (inferring the the sump was empty?)
Recovery man says that the sump plug is very loose and engine has no oil.
Recovery company took the car to the dealership.
What is her recourse? Should she get a written statement from the recovery company (not sure if AA, RAC etc)?
Should she reject the car outright and ask for market value plus compensation?
Should she get a high Street solicitor to help draft a letter?
How likely are Mercedes to just settle?
What I am trying to avoid is Mercedes giving her a bunch of flowers and telling her it's fine.
I would wait to see if the engine is beyond help first, if it’s ok just get them to put it in writing that any issues that appear relating to engine failure they will cover.
If the engine is scrap, a new genuine Renault, I mean Mercedes engine fitted with use of a loan car should cover it.
Why the need for compensation?
If the engine is scrap, a new genuine Renault, I mean Mercedes engine fitted with use of a loan car should cover it.
Why the need for compensation?
Thanks stevemcs.
I guess that MB aren't going to be to forthcoming about if the engine is damaged.
How likely are they able to provide a letter indemnifying against future problems. I would have thought that this would be complex therefore having them buy the car is simpler?
Note my Mum is, mid 70s so I need to keep things simple
I guess that MB aren't going to be to forthcoming about if the engine is damaged.
How likely are they able to provide a letter indemnifying against future problems. I would have thought that this would be complex therefore having them buy the car is simpler?
Note my Mum is, mid 70s so I need to keep things simple
If it’s damaged you will know straight away, however a little oil can go a long way.
You would normally start by draining the oil, seeing what came out, knowing what should be in there and from that you would have an idea of what might be wrong.
We regularly have to top engines up prior to an mot, it’s not unusual to have to put 1.5/2 litres in a fiat - they only hold 2.8 on a service fill and they still run fine.
As for the letter, they would be quick to put something in writing if it was the other way around, but when it’s their own fault you may have to ask a few times.
You would normally start by draining the oil, seeing what came out, knowing what should be in there and from that you would have an idea of what might be wrong.
We regularly have to top engines up prior to an mot, it’s not unusual to have to put 1.5/2 litres in a fiat - they only hold 2.8 on a service fill and they still run fine.
As for the letter, they would be quick to put something in writing if it was the other way around, but when it’s their own fault you may have to ask a few times.
stevemcs said:
You would normally start by draining the oil, seeing what came out, knowing what should be in there and from that you would have an idea of what might be wrong.
Agreed that a competent mechanic should do this, but I very much doubt Mercedes will. I suspect they'll just refill it a hand it back.If she's going to have them buy it back from her should she refuse to 'receive' it back? ie if she drives it home tonight does she lose bargaining power?
This happened to a friend of mine with an M2 who builds engines for a living.
Was an oil trail on the industrial estate where the sump plug came out after picking it up from BMW after a service. So he ran it for a bit to make sure it was completely knackered and making some horrible noises, then rejected the car. He did this because he knew what they would do.
Sure enough, a few days later it was back on the forecourt for sale. They just filled it back up.
Was an oil trail on the industrial estate where the sump plug came out after picking it up from BMW after a service. So he ran it for a bit to make sure it was completely knackered and making some horrible noises, then rejected the car. He did this because he knew what they would do.
Sure enough, a few days later it was back on the forecourt for sale. They just filled it back up.
stevemcs said:
If it’s damaged you will know straight away, however a little oil can go a long way.
You would normally start by draining the oil, seeing what came out, knowing what should be in there and from that you would have an idea of what might be wrong.
We regularly have to top engines up prior to an mot, it’s not unusual to have to put 1.5/2 litres in a fiat - they only hold 2.8 on a service fill and they still run fine.
As for the letter, they would be quick to put something in writing if it was the other way around, but when it’s their own fault you may have to ask a few times.
Disagree, whilst motors do run for some time to failure without oil, oil starvation of any pressure fed bearings will cause damage .You would normally start by draining the oil, seeing what came out, knowing what should be in there and from that you would have an idea of what might be wrong.
We regularly have to top engines up prior to an mot, it’s not unusual to have to put 1.5/2 litres in a fiat - they only hold 2.8 on a service fill and they still run fine.
As for the letter, they would be quick to put something in writing if it was the other way around, but when it’s their own fault you may have to ask a few times.
Like a motorcycle goes down road, engine spinning on it's side at high rpms...no apparent damage but same motor is rattling within a few hundred miles. (or no problems if a roller bearing pressed crank -as opposed to pressure fed shell bearings )
As insurer's describe it: 'unseen damage ' .
Plain bearings, as used on the crank and connecting rod big ends in almost all modern engines, are entirely reliant on oil pressure to form and maintain the film of oil that sits between the metal bearing surface and the component. With a loss of oil pressure, this film quickly dissipates, and you end up with the metal bearing shell riding directly on the metal bearing surfaces on the crank. These bearings are under a lot of load when the engine is working, so it rapidly destroys the bearing surface and soon after, the crank itself.
Fresh oil may allow the engine to run OK, but the damage is done at that point, the clearances won't be right (which has a further knock-on effect on oil pressure), and you're storing up problems for the future. That's without any metal swarf that might have blocked the oil pick up, or done other damage before getting trapped in the filter.
I might take the chance on a snotter, but on a car of any value, I would want the sump dropped and checked for swarf, and the big end caps removed and the bearings inspected. This can be done without removing the engine. As an absolute bare minimum, I would expect any professional service outfit to do those checks on an engine that's been run very low on oil through no fault of the customer.
Fresh oil may allow the engine to run OK, but the damage is done at that point, the clearances won't be right (which has a further knock-on effect on oil pressure), and you're storing up problems for the future. That's without any metal swarf that might have blocked the oil pick up, or done other damage before getting trapped in the filter.
I might take the chance on a snotter, but on a car of any value, I would want the sump dropped and checked for swarf, and the big end caps removed and the bearings inspected. This can be done without removing the engine. As an absolute bare minimum, I would expect any professional service outfit to do those checks on an engine that's been run very low on oil through no fault of the customer.
Edited by Limpet on Monday 14th August 10:35
Limpet said:
Plain bearings, as used on the crank and connecting rod big ends in almost all modern engines, are entirely reliant on oil pressure to form and maintain the film of oil that sits between the metal bearing surface and the component. With a loss of oil pressure, this film quickly dissipates, and you end up with the metal bearing shell riding directly on the metal bearing surfaces on the crank. These bearings are under a lot of load when the engine is working, so it rapidly destroys the bearing surface and soon after, the crank itself.
Fresh oil may allow the engine to run OK, but the damage is done at that point, the clearances won't be right (which has a further knock-on effect on oil pressure), and you're storing up problems for the future. That's without any metal swarf that might have blocked the oil pick up, or done other damage before getting trapped in the filter.
I might take the chance on a snotter, but on a car of any value, I would want the sump dropped and checked for swarf, and the big end caps removed and the bearings inspected. This can be done without removing the engine. As an absolute bare minimum, I would expect any professional service outfit to do those checks on an engine that's been run very low on oil through no fault of the customer.
We both know Mercedes won't do that though, even though thats what we would do.Fresh oil may allow the engine to run OK, but the damage is done at that point, the clearances won't be right (which has a further knock-on effect on oil pressure), and you're storing up problems for the future. That's without any metal swarf that might have blocked the oil pick up, or done other damage before getting trapped in the filter.
I might take the chance on a snotter, but on a car of any value, I would want the sump dropped and checked for swarf, and the big end caps removed and the bearings inspected. This can be done without removing the engine. As an absolute bare minimum, I would expect any professional service outfit to do those checks on an engine that's been run very low on oil through no fault of the customer.
Edited by Limpet on Monday 14th August 10:35
A bit more info, the sump plug was completely out. It was on the tray under the engine - you can see it in the photo below.
The oil on the ground in the forecourt is the 1 litre that my mum put in - which came straight out again as the undertray was already full of oil (the photo of the tray is after the AA man took it off).
So that confirms that the engine was empty of oil...
The oil on the ground in the forecourt is the 1 litre that my mum put in - which came straight out again as the undertray was already full of oil (the photo of the tray is after the AA man took it off).
So that confirms that the engine was empty of oil...
Edited by Matt_T on Monday 14th August 19:12
You won't get any cooperation from the dealer for long term issues and they're going to be very defensive on the idea of putting anything in writing wishing to avoid liability now and in the future.
You have to come up with simple low cost demands if you want any compensation right now.
You should write them a letter sent by recorded delivery which states the facts and your dissatisfaction and your fears about what could happen to the engine. You don't require a response but if you have sent it recorded you are set for future action should it become necessary.
In the longer term you should be documenting this situation in 4k HD 1024mp high resolution, in duplicate, blood and stone carvings. If the engine begins to show signs of deterioration sooner than it should you have prepared in advance your case against them.
You have to come up with simple low cost demands if you want any compensation right now.
You should write them a letter sent by recorded delivery which states the facts and your dissatisfaction and your fears about what could happen to the engine. You don't require a response but if you have sent it recorded you are set for future action should it become necessary.
In the longer term you should be documenting this situation in 4k HD 1024mp high resolution, in duplicate, blood and stone carvings. If the engine begins to show signs of deterioration sooner than it should you have prepared in advance your case against them.
Just a bit of balance.
A few years ago, I smashed the sump on my car, leaving a fist-sized hole in the bottom. I drove the car a few hundred metres to get it off the road, parked up, and had it towed home. Ran it for a minute or so with zero oil pressure to do that.
Bolted on a new sump (and a heftier skid plate), filled the oil, and ran it for another 5 years and 60k or so miles, and it was still fine when it was sold on.
Don't assume it's wrecked.
A few years ago, I smashed the sump on my car, leaving a fist-sized hole in the bottom. I drove the car a few hundred metres to get it off the road, parked up, and had it towed home. Ran it for a minute or so with zero oil pressure to do that.
Bolted on a new sump (and a heftier skid plate), filled the oil, and ran it for another 5 years and 60k or so miles, and it was still fine when it was sold on.
Don't assume it's wrecked.
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