Keyless theft questions

[TheFungle]

I've had a search and can't find the answer to these questions.

Are JLR more susceptible than other brands from a technical PoV or is simply the 'demand' is higher?

Are thieves picking up the signal from the keys when they simply on the kitchen minding their own business or are the thieves intercepting the signal when the owner gets close to the vehicle?

[MitchT]

Can't answer the JLR part of the question but as I undertand it they use a booster to make the signal strong enough to open the car when the key is inside the house. The stock solution it to make sure the key is inside a container that blocks the signal.

[trickywoo]

Typically they will use a signal amplifier to pick up the signal from a key in the house and their mate next to the car on the driveway will have a receiver allowing them into the car and also start it.

Same would work out and about but would involve more effort than taking it off a driveway.

I think JLR are more desirable targets but also the key signal travels a further distance than other systems.

Recently they have put electronics in that require a constant signal (or something along those lines) which make the simple signal amplified theft more difficult.

[Cold]

No better or worse than other manufacturers. It's just that they are desirable to those stealing them.

[MElliottUK]

I think you can reprogram a blank key with access to the CANBUS, hence all you need is a laptop and blank to take the car.

[leef44]

I would have thought they are as easy to steal as Fiesta ST which also suffer from the same theft issue.

But there is more profit margin in stealing a LR.

[ScoobyChris]

I am sure some of the JLR cars were stolen by cutting a hole in the tailgate.

Found this -> https://www.rrsport.co.uk/forum/topic60060.html

Chris

[Caddyshack]

ScoobyChris said:

I am sure some of the JLR cars were stolen by cutting a hole in the tailgate.

Found this -> https://www.rrsport.co.uk/forum/topic60060.html

Chris

I believe that was after JLR did improvements to help stop thefts. If it’s built by a man then another man will always find a way to defeat it.

[indigochim]

I never understand why they don't code the keys to stop transmitting after a few minutes of not moving so once your home and the keys are in a drawer/pot/... they go tobsleep and won't transmit until they're picked up to go out. Surely that's East to implement and would stop the signal boosting thefts.

[s p a c e m a n]

I understand that the reason that jlr products are more susceptible to theft is because it's possible to Bluetooth hack the car to unlock the doors and then you can program a key through canbus without the need for the original key.

Other keyless cars require you to boost the signal from the original key.

[Ninja59]

indigochim said:

I never understand why they don't code the keys to stop transmitting after a few minutes of not moving so once your home and the keys are in a drawer/pot/... they go tobsleep and won't transmit until they're picked up to go out. Surely that's East to implement and would stop the signal boosting thefts.

They do and JLR even use UWB keys.

Problem is cutting a hole in the boot exposes the boot canbus wires cut them and the car unlocks. There is then lots of tools to programme a new key via the OBD port.

The canbus injection method on toyota, lexus, Alfa romeo is a big issue and they are seeing insurance renewal issues or high premiums now as well. In particular RAV4, RX and CHR.

The other one is Hyundai and Kia being caught with their trousers down with brute force tools that are hacking the rolling codes in 40 seconds because the tables are too small. An Ioniq 5 or EV6 is at particular risk, but other models are likely also at risk as they are also pretty high in some theft tables now.

Really overall a lot of manufacturers have failed to adequately protect key programming a simple live server connection and one time use codes would prevent a stload of that issue

Edited by Ninja59 on Friday 5th January 23:08

[agent006]

Ninja59 said:

The other one is Hyundai and Kia being caught with their trousers down with brute force tools that are hacking the rolling codes in 40 seconds because the tables are too small. An Ioniq 5 or EV6 is at particular risk, but other models are likely also at risk as they are also pretty high in some theft tables now.

Really overall a lot of manufacturers have failed to adequately protect key programming a simple live server connection and one time use codes would prevent a stload of that issue

A bit of intelligence from the vehicle, and a default to failing locked would resolve the brute force attacks. There are very few scenarios where a car would need to respond to more than one or two unlock requests per second.
Even in a large busy carpark the chances of having 10 people unlocking 10 Kias simultaneously all in range of each other is non existent. So if a car receives a huge stream of invalid unlock requests from a brute force attack it should go into a lockout mode, just like computers and phones do, and yknow, every other secure authentication method designed in the last 30 years does. Unlock with the key only for the next 5 minutes. Oh and trigger the alarm for the fun of it too.

[Mr Tidy]

I just don't know why anyone needs keyless entry!

I had a courtesy car that had it once and ended up chucking the key in the cup-holder as there was nowhere else to put it.

Pointless gimmick IMHO.

[ruhall]

Do any new cars still use that old fashioned thing that you had to put into a lock and turn to unlock the car. What was it called, a key? Something like that.

[DeuceDeuce]

Mr Tidy said:

I just don't know why anyone needs keyless entry!

I had a courtesy car that had it once and ended up chucking the key in the cup-holder as there was nowhere else to put it.

Pointless gimmick IMHO.

What about your pocket? Where do you put your key when you leave your own car and say, are going to the cinema?

[Pica-Pica]

DeuceDeuce said:

Mr Tidy said:

I just don't know why anyone needs keyless entry!

I had a courtesy car that had it once and ended up chucking the key in the cup-holder as there was nowhere else to put it.

Pointless gimmick IMHO.

What about your pocket? Where do you put your key when you leave your own car and say, are going to the cinema?

Indeed. If you are hijacked, crash, or otherwise have to abandon your car in an emergency, you still have the key (and presumably) house keys on you. In fact, better than having an ‘ignition key’ slot.

[FMOB]

Mr Tidy said:

I just don't know why anyone needs keyless entry!

I had a courtesy car that had it once and ended up chucking the key in the cup-holder as there was nowhere else to put it.

Pointless gimmick IMHO.

This is so true, it is a right pain not having somewhere to put they key. Having it in your pocket is fine for entry/start but when leaving you still have to dig about and find it to lock the car.

As for the security problems, these were all very predictable so the car manufacturers have been stupid is believing the hype and adopting it.

The insurance companies have been double stupid in believing the car manufacturers when they say trust me it will be fine and subsequently customers get their cars nicked and stiffed by the insurance renewal.

Just wait till we get fully autonomous vehicles with always on internet that can be nicked by someone anywhere on the planet with a computer.

Edited by FMOB on Saturday 6th January 17:47

[Summit_Detailing]

Maybe JLR should branch out into branded faraday bags/boxes.....cheap and easy solution to the problem.

[NortonES2]

FMOB said:

This is so true, it is a right pain not having somewhere to put they key. Having it in your pocket is fine for entry/start but when leaving you still have to dig about and find it to lock the car.

Edited by FMOB on Saturday 6th January 17:47

No you don't, you just press the button on the door handle, on mine anyway.

[119]

Had an old v70 with keyless and all you had to do was pull the handle and it opened and unlocked.

Locking was still a press of the fob or a button on any of the handles.

We also had a Kia with keyless and that used to unfold the mirrors as you approached but you still had to press the button on the handle to unlock and lock.