Are all DCT gearboxes horrible at low speed?
Discussion
I really want an automatic as my next car and we were given a Renault Arkana automatic as a hire car for five days recently. Now thiis car was quite high mileage and has no doubt had a very hard life but I found it horrible to drive at slow speeds in traffic. I understand this has a DCT gearbox, the major issues I had were.
1)Seemed to be a delay before pressing the accelerator and the car moving forward, especially on a hill.
2)As I was slowing in traffic, just before I was about to stop, if I lifted off slightly from the brake the car would lurch forward as if you had let the clutch out on a manual.
3)The throttle just seemed incredibly jerky at slow speed, at crawling speeds if you lifted or applied 0.000001mm of throttle the thing would lurch forward like a leaner driver.
4)On a really steep hill it would not creep forward as I lifted off the brake and would then almost feel like it was slowly letting out the clutch before it lurched forward as i applied the throttle.
Basically I hated it, it felt incredibly dim witted and jerky at slow speeds and I would never want one. Are all of the dual clutch transmissions like this?
It felt horrible compared to the automatic Mercedes with an old school slush box I have driven in the past.
1)Seemed to be a delay before pressing the accelerator and the car moving forward, especially on a hill.
2)As I was slowing in traffic, just before I was about to stop, if I lifted off slightly from the brake the car would lurch forward as if you had let the clutch out on a manual.
3)The throttle just seemed incredibly jerky at slow speed, at crawling speeds if you lifted or applied 0.000001mm of throttle the thing would lurch forward like a leaner driver.
4)On a really steep hill it would not creep forward as I lifted off the brake and would then almost feel like it was slowly letting out the clutch before it lurched forward as i applied the throttle.
Basically I hated it, it felt incredibly dim witted and jerky at slow speeds and I would never want one. Are all of the dual clutch transmissions like this?
It felt horrible compared to the automatic Mercedes with an old school slush box I have driven in the past.
thecremeegg said:
119 said:
DSG in ours is buttery smooth.
The Merc standard 9sp auto on the other hand is f
king awful.
Disagree on the Merc, loved the 9 speed I had in mine. Not sporty but very smoothThe Merc standard 9sp auto on the other hand is f
king awful.All single and twin clutch automated manuals i've driven have been an aquired taste at best and bloody awful at worst, but then i drove car transporters for years so precise clutch control was the ideal requirement due to extreme angles and inch by inch control needed.
All TC autoboxes were streets ahead at maneuvering or town traffic speeds, Toyota hybrids were a revelation in silky smooth fine control.
Out on the open road you get used to them and adjust your driving to suit the failings, there's no way i'd buy a car for myself with an automated manual box single or twin clutch, TC auto or hybrid drive for me.
All TC autoboxes were streets ahead at maneuvering or town traffic speeds, Toyota hybrids were a revelation in silky smooth fine control.
Out on the open road you get used to them and adjust your driving to suit the failings, there's no way i'd buy a car for myself with an automated manual box single or twin clutch, TC auto or hybrid drive for me.
I've got a 7sp DCT in my Alpine and it's absolutely fine in Normal Auto.
Sport and Track is a bit lumpy changing down from 3, 2, 1 in auto when in traffic, but then I only tend to use those modes for more enthusiastic driving on open roads.
Does the Renault SUV have a Sport mode? although in most cars it will default to Normal when turned off.
Sport and Track is a bit lumpy changing down from 3, 2, 1 in auto when in traffic, but then I only tend to use those modes for more enthusiastic driving on open roads.
Does the Renault SUV have a Sport mode? although in most cars it will default to Normal when turned off.
I have a 3.0 td with a 6sp tc zf auto a 3.0td with a 7sp dsg and a 2.0bitdi 8sp tc zf auto.
The dsg is my least favourite, but its far from awful, it doesn't have the foibles you mention, its just a bit less smooth than the tc autos at low speed.
If i wasnt driving them back to back i wouldnt have any complaints about the dsg.
I had a loan of a golf r for a while and really didnt like the dsg in that though.
My 3.0 td dsg creeps like an auto, hill starts are fine, low speed is fine. The golf r barely had any creep, pootling along slowly changes could occasionally be dimwitted and jerky, it just wasnt nice when you werent giving it some beans.
The golf was lower mileage than my q5, but had a hard life.
Renault have a bad track record when it comes to gearboxes, they are a constant source of problems , maybe try a few different brands.
The dsg is my least favourite, but its far from awful, it doesn't have the foibles you mention, its just a bit less smooth than the tc autos at low speed.
If i wasnt driving them back to back i wouldnt have any complaints about the dsg.
I had a loan of a golf r for a while and really didnt like the dsg in that though.
My 3.0 td dsg creeps like an auto, hill starts are fine, low speed is fine. The golf r barely had any creep, pootling along slowly changes could occasionally be dimwitted and jerky, it just wasnt nice when you werent giving it some beans.
The golf was lower mileage than my q5, but had a hard life.
Renault have a bad track record when it comes to gearboxes, they are a constant source of problems , maybe try a few different brands.
Edited by OldGermanHeaps on Monday 26th May 15:52
119 said:
DSG in ours is buttery smooth.
PDK in my 981 is also brilliant and buttery smooth in boring mode.I had a 2009 335i auto with old fashioned slush box, similar 6 cylinder turbo to the M4 but a lot older. I didn't like the throttle in that car. It wasn't the auto it was the throttle. It felt like turbo lag but throttle lag. So pulling away from a stand still if you only pressed the throttle a bit it would take a second to move. So if you pressed it more during that initial second - because it wasn't doing anything - it would then surge forward when it finally woke up. So it felt a bit all or nothing getting off the line. Once moving it was fine.
My Skoda Superb has the 7-speed wet clutch DSG (behind a 190PS TDI) and it exhibits none of the foibles in the OP or the ones classically levelled at DSGs/DCTs. It basically drives and acts like a good torque-converter auto with crisper changes. Very smooth and a very good sense of what gear it needs to be in and when.
The one wrinkle I've discovered is that the clutches take up drive at a fairly fixed (and gentle) rate, regardless of throttle position. If you need to pull away briskly (at a roundabout or junction) and give it a prod of throttle, the revs will soar to 2.5k but you'll pull away oh-so-smoothly and gently until the clutch is fully engaged and then you zoom away at full TDI urge. The ways to get around this seem to be to give it loads more throttle (ridiculous amounts of acceleration with a beefy engine) or to proactively click it into Sports mode.
But for the vast majority of driving it's a great system.
A good friend of mine had a Fabia VRS with the classic 6-spd dry clutch DSG and that did exhibit a lot of the stereotypical issues - great when driven hard but very lurchy and snatchy at lower speeds/lighter throttles and irritating to parallel park because of the binary clutch control.
The one wrinkle I've discovered is that the clutches take up drive at a fairly fixed (and gentle) rate, regardless of throttle position. If you need to pull away briskly (at a roundabout or junction) and give it a prod of throttle, the revs will soar to 2.5k but you'll pull away oh-so-smoothly and gently until the clutch is fully engaged and then you zoom away at full TDI urge. The ways to get around this seem to be to give it loads more throttle (ridiculous amounts of acceleration with a beefy engine) or to proactively click it into Sports mode.
But for the vast majority of driving it's a great system.
A good friend of mine had a Fabia VRS with the classic 6-spd dry clutch DSG and that did exhibit a lot of the stereotypical issues - great when driven hard but very lurchy and snatchy at lower speeds/lighter throttles and irritating to parallel park because of the binary clutch control.
2xChevrons said:
My Skoda Superb has the 7-speed wet clutch DSG (behind a 190PS TDI) and it exhibits none of the foibles in the OP or the ones classically levelled at DSGs/DCTs. It basically drives and acts like a good torque-converter auto with crisper changes. Very smooth and a very good sense of what gear it needs to be in and when.
The one wrinkle I've discovered is that the clutches take up drive at a fairly fixed (and gentle) rate, regardless of throttle position. If you need to pull away briskly (at a roundabout or junction) and give it a prod of throttle, the revs will soar to 2.5k but you'll pull away oh-so-smoothly and gently until the clutch is fully engaged and then you zoom away at full TDI urge. The ways to get around this seem to be to give it loads more throttle (ridiculous amounts of acceleration with a beefy engine) or to proactively click it into Sports mode.
But for the vast majority of driving it's a great system.
A good friend of mine had a Fabia VRS with the classic 6-spd dry clutch DSG and that did exhibit a lot of the stereotypical issues - great when driven hard but very lurchy and snatchy at lower speeds/lighter throttles and irritating to parallel park because of the binary clutch control.
I’ve got a petrol Octavia VRS with the same 7 speed box. The thing I’ve found with it is that you have to pre-empt the stop-start when you’re at roundabouts etc. The trick appears to be to lift your foot off the brakes a second or so before you intend to go so by the time you’re ready to start moving the engine has fired and it’s started to creep. If you want a laugh for getting it going quickly, have a look in the manual where it tells you how to make the launch control work on the auto box. Convoluted doesn’t begin to describe it!The one wrinkle I've discovered is that the clutches take up drive at a fairly fixed (and gentle) rate, regardless of throttle position. If you need to pull away briskly (at a roundabout or junction) and give it a prod of throttle, the revs will soar to 2.5k but you'll pull away oh-so-smoothly and gently until the clutch is fully engaged and then you zoom away at full TDI urge. The ways to get around this seem to be to give it loads more throttle (ridiculous amounts of acceleration with a beefy engine) or to proactively click it into Sports mode.
But for the vast majority of driving it's a great system.
A good friend of mine had a Fabia VRS with the classic 6-spd dry clutch DSG and that did exhibit a lot of the stereotypical issues - great when driven hard but very lurchy and snatchy at lower speeds/lighter throttles and irritating to parallel park because of the binary clutch control.
In general driving it’s great, albeit it has a tendency to let the car plod about at 1200rpm. If you floor the throttle it’ll happily wait till 7000rpm before changing up, well into the red line and far faster than I’d let the engine spin if it had a manual box
DSGs do have a fundamental disadvantage compared to a slush-box when pulling away slowly, in that they need to make a trade-off between slipping the clutch for longer, giving a smoother engagement but more clutch wear; and engaging the clutch more abruptly to protect the clutch, which will give a jerkier application of drive.
Modern ones are very good at striking this balance, mostly through having more resilient clutches, but it's still there compared to a fluid coupling.
Other than pulling away from a standstill, a good modern DSG should be virtually indistinguishable from a torque converter.
Modern ones are very good at striking this balance, mostly through having more resilient clutches, but it's still there compared to a fluid coupling.
Other than pulling away from a standstill, a good modern DSG should be virtually indistinguishable from a torque converter.
Edited by kambites on Monday 26th May 17:46
croyde said:
Does the Renault SUV have a Sport mode? although in most cars it will default to Normal when turned off.
No, although it did have an ECO mode which made it even worse when switched on. It also had stop start which made it worse again.I switched both off as soon as I started the car.
It depends on the DCT. Some companies do it better than others. Who invented it - VW?
They are often found to be wanting when pulling up to and entering a roundabout, or junction.
Had a VAG offering recently (a Cupra Formentor) and the DCT was a thing of horror, lots of thumping, sluggishness, noise and lack of forward motion.
They are often found to be wanting when pulling up to and entering a roundabout, or junction.
Had a VAG offering recently (a Cupra Formentor) and the DCT was a thing of horror, lots of thumping, sluggishness, noise and lack of forward motion.
Maybe it's just me but in very broad brush terms any DCT I have driven falls into one of two camps, wet clutch no problems, some are better than others but even so generally fine. Dry clutch the best ones are not even a patch on the worst wet clutch, especially low speed manoeuvres in tight spaces, hill starts and so on.
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