When was "peak"Ford/BMW/Mercedes etc?
Discussion
The numerous global car manufacturers have peaked and troughed over the years, going through times where they have made a fantastic range of products and others when the majority of their products have been sub-par. What in your opinion was "peak" xxx?
Just picking a few manufacturers close to my heart, I would say
Peugeot
Late 90s. My all time favourite Peugeot is the 205 GTi 1.9 but I think the overall high point was the x06 range of cars, I'd be happy to have these 2 parked on my drive and unlike the 205 they would probably still be usable daily vehicles.
The 406 whether saloon/estate/coupe was also a fine looking and excellent family car and I even thought the 206 was a decent and good-looking car, even if the sporting variants were a little disappointing. Too bad the 207/307/407 that followed were so dire.
BMW
Early 2000s, although in fairness, BMW had been crushing it since the mid-80s.
Probably 2 of the finest and best-looking sports saloons ever made (and the lesser versions were fine cars too).
Add to this the E38 7-Series, 1st gen X5, Z3/Z3M and Z8 and were BMW really making any "bad" cars at the time? Admittedly, their fall from grace was slower than Peugeot.
Subaru
Mid-2000s
I adored my "blob eye" Impreza WRX but the Forester/Legacy of the day were also fantastic cars and a bit cool and alternative before Subaru embraced CVT transmissions and abandoned performance cars.
Others are harder to pinpoint. Possibly late 80s/early 90s with Mercedes with products like the 190E, W124 E-Class, R129 SL and 560 SEC?
People rave about 80s VWs but I was never a huge fan, certainly the early 2000s was the time when they were trying new things and pushing the boundaries with mixed success but the range was for the most part very competent but dull. Audi is another difficult one, as at one time they only ever had one RS model in production at a time, so no overlap. The original A8 was a real statement of intent to go upmarket and the A2/mk1 TT in the early 2000s really groundbreaking but for me, they probably reached their peak around 2008-2010 (just when BMW were starting to decline). I would love to have a manual R8 V8 and a V10 RS6 Avant parked on the drive.
Others have had multiple peaks IMHO. I think that Ford had a really solid range of products in the mid-late 80s (Fiesta/mk4 Escort/Orion/Sierra/Granada/Capri) with some very desirable sporting variants before a drop off in the 90s and a renaissance post-Millenium but with the Fiesta/Focus/Mondeo gone and that hideous electric Capri, they are a shadow of their former selves.
One could argue that some defunct car manufacturers have peaked close to the end of their lives. I'm a big fan of mid-90s Rovers and although one could argue that Jaguar's heyday was the 1960s (E-Type/mk2), I actually believe that the range of cars (XE/XF/X351 XJ/F-Pace/F-Type/I-Pace) on sale before they ceased to exist as we know it were some of the best Jaguars ever made (especially anything with the 5 litre Supercharged V8). Most of the engine options were a bit naff but had they had access to BMW's petrol/diesel engines, things could have been different.
Is any car manufacturer really "crushing it" in 2025? Modern Volvos certainly look very cool (something that they never ever achieved when I was a kid) but I'm not sure if the engineering/build quality/reliability/durability is up to the legendary Volvos of the past. Renault certainly seem to have embraced the EV thing and done it better than most but at the expense of the legendary "hot" RS Clios/Meganes. Kia/Hyundai probably more recently but I find their latest products less appealing than the ones that were available 5 or so years ago.
There are a small handful of "new" cars that I like but I'm struggling to think of 2 new cars from one manufacturer that I would like to own right now. Possibly the GR Yaris and the GR86 but I think that I preferred the original GR Yaris. Maybe a new FFRR and a new Defender 90 actually, although perhaps Land Rover have gone too far away from utilitarian and too far into luxury, so now lack a little authenticity? I would be equally (if not more) happy with a "classic" Defender TD5 and an L322/L320 FFRR/RRS with the TDV8 or even a Discovery 4, so perhaps c. 2010 was "peak" Land Rover?
So for some of your favourite car manufacturers, what period of time do you think was "peak"? Feel free to pick some of the same ones if you disagree.
Just picking a few manufacturers close to my heart, I would say
Peugeot
Late 90s. My all time favourite Peugeot is the 205 GTi 1.9 but I think the overall high point was the x06 range of cars, I'd be happy to have these 2 parked on my drive and unlike the 205 they would probably still be usable daily vehicles.
The 406 whether saloon/estate/coupe was also a fine looking and excellent family car and I even thought the 206 was a decent and good-looking car, even if the sporting variants were a little disappointing. Too bad the 207/307/407 that followed were so dire.
BMW
Early 2000s, although in fairness, BMW had been crushing it since the mid-80s.
Probably 2 of the finest and best-looking sports saloons ever made (and the lesser versions were fine cars too).
Add to this the E38 7-Series, 1st gen X5, Z3/Z3M and Z8 and were BMW really making any "bad" cars at the time? Admittedly, their fall from grace was slower than Peugeot.
Subaru
Mid-2000s
I adored my "blob eye" Impreza WRX but the Forester/Legacy of the day were also fantastic cars and a bit cool and alternative before Subaru embraced CVT transmissions and abandoned performance cars.
Others are harder to pinpoint. Possibly late 80s/early 90s with Mercedes with products like the 190E, W124 E-Class, R129 SL and 560 SEC?
People rave about 80s VWs but I was never a huge fan, certainly the early 2000s was the time when they were trying new things and pushing the boundaries with mixed success but the range was for the most part very competent but dull. Audi is another difficult one, as at one time they only ever had one RS model in production at a time, so no overlap. The original A8 was a real statement of intent to go upmarket and the A2/mk1 TT in the early 2000s really groundbreaking but for me, they probably reached their peak around 2008-2010 (just when BMW were starting to decline). I would love to have a manual R8 V8 and a V10 RS6 Avant parked on the drive.
Others have had multiple peaks IMHO. I think that Ford had a really solid range of products in the mid-late 80s (Fiesta/mk4 Escort/Orion/Sierra/Granada/Capri) with some very desirable sporting variants before a drop off in the 90s and a renaissance post-Millenium but with the Fiesta/Focus/Mondeo gone and that hideous electric Capri, they are a shadow of their former selves.
One could argue that some defunct car manufacturers have peaked close to the end of their lives. I'm a big fan of mid-90s Rovers and although one could argue that Jaguar's heyday was the 1960s (E-Type/mk2), I actually believe that the range of cars (XE/XF/X351 XJ/F-Pace/F-Type/I-Pace) on sale before they ceased to exist as we know it were some of the best Jaguars ever made (especially anything with the 5 litre Supercharged V8). Most of the engine options were a bit naff but had they had access to BMW's petrol/diesel engines, things could have been different.
Is any car manufacturer really "crushing it" in 2025? Modern Volvos certainly look very cool (something that they never ever achieved when I was a kid) but I'm not sure if the engineering/build quality/reliability/durability is up to the legendary Volvos of the past. Renault certainly seem to have embraced the EV thing and done it better than most but at the expense of the legendary "hot" RS Clios/Meganes. Kia/Hyundai probably more recently but I find their latest products less appealing than the ones that were available 5 or so years ago.
There are a small handful of "new" cars that I like but I'm struggling to think of 2 new cars from one manufacturer that I would like to own right now. Possibly the GR Yaris and the GR86 but I think that I preferred the original GR Yaris. Maybe a new FFRR and a new Defender 90 actually, although perhaps Land Rover have gone too far away from utilitarian and too far into luxury, so now lack a little authenticity? I would be equally (if not more) happy with a "classic" Defender TD5 and an L322/L320 FFRR/RRS with the TDV8 or even a Discovery 4, so perhaps c. 2010 was "peak" Land Rover?
So for some of your favourite car manufacturers, what period of time do you think was "peak"? Feel free to pick some of the same ones if you disagree.
Edited by white_goodman on Wednesday 20th August 22:26
I agree with you regarding BMW’s although I think they’ve been great from the early 70’s.
As regards Ford, their best time was the mid 70’s to early 80’s. By the mid 80’s the Mk 4 Escort was out and that was a real rot box. The less said about the Mk3 (also rust prone) dynamically weak and miles behind the competition Granada the better.
Vauxhall were doing well in the 80’s to 2000, including the underrated Mk1 Vectra.
Peak Fiat was undoubtedly the mid 70’s to early 80’s where they produced 1 class winner after another, 127, Panda, X19, 131 and 132.
As regards Ford, their best time was the mid 70’s to early 80’s. By the mid 80’s the Mk 4 Escort was out and that was a real rot box. The less said about the Mk3 (also rust prone) dynamically weak and miles behind the competition Granada the better.
Vauxhall were doing well in the 80’s to 2000, including the underrated Mk1 Vectra.
Peak Fiat was undoubtedly the mid 70’s to early 80’s where they produced 1 class winner after another, 127, Panda, X19, 131 and 132.
ScoobyChris said:
For me Subaru’s peak was pre-2001 after which they got bigger and heavier and slower!
Vauxhall’s peak I think was 80s to mid 90s.
Chris
I accept that the "classic" Impreza is more iconic but I think that the SG Forester/4th gen Legacy were both fantastic cars (and a good deal safer), although I did love my "blobeye" WRX at the time that I owned it (2010-2013). I quite fancy another Subaru, as a bit quirky and interesting and the symmetrical AWD system is brilliant but anything post around 2010 is just dull, dull, dull, so I would tend to lean more towards a sporty Audi sadly.Vauxhall’s peak I think was 80s to mid 90s.
Chris
Agree with you on Vauxhall though, I think they probably peaked at a time that Ford were starting to slide (mk3 Cavalier/Calibra/Corsa B kind of thing) but you could still get some of the good RWD stuff like the Carlton/Senator/Omega.
Rob 131 Sport said:
I agree with you regarding BMW’s although I think they’ve been great from the early 70’s.
As regards Ford, their best time was the mid 70’s to early 80’s. By the mid 80’s the Mk 4 Escort was out and that was a real rot box. The less said about the Mk3 (also rust prone) dynamically weak and miles behind the competition Granada the better.
Vauxhall were doing well in the 80’s to 2000, including the underrated Mk1 Vectra.
Peak Fiat was undoubtedly the mid 70’s to early 80’s where they produced 1 class winner after another, 127, Panda, X19, 131 and 132.
I thought that the 70s might have been a strong period for Ford but I wasn't around to attest to that. 70s Escorts/Cortinas/Granadas/Capris with their transatlantic styling certainly looked more appealing than some of the other tat (ahem BL) on sale in the 70s.As regards Ford, their best time was the mid 70’s to early 80’s. By the mid 80’s the Mk 4 Escort was out and that was a real rot box. The less said about the Mk3 (also rust prone) dynamically weak and miles behind the competition Granada the better.
Vauxhall were doing well in the 80’s to 2000, including the underrated Mk1 Vectra.
Peak Fiat was undoubtedly the mid 70’s to early 80’s where they produced 1 class winner after another, 127, Panda, X19, 131 and 132.
I also think that the mid-90s was a good era for Fiat. My first car was a Fiat Cinquecento Sporting that I inherited from my mum (and which she bought new) when it was 5 years old and it was a fantastic car. You also had the mk1 Punto, mk1 Tipo and the Bravo/Brava (my friend's dad had a Punto GT Turbo and later a Bravo HGT and when we picked up the Cinq it was rubbing shoulders with a metallic blue Fiat Coupe Turbo and an orange barchetta in the showroom, so I was quite a Fiat enthusiast at the time! I (ie my wife) later owned a "new" Fiat 500, which I liked and it was a significant car for Fiat but it didn't drive anywhere like as well as the Cinq and kind of succeeded in killing off the rest of the range.
white_goodman said:
I thought that the 70s might have been a strong period for Ford but I wasn't around to attest to that. 70s Escorts/Cortinas/Granadas/Capris with their transatlantic styling certainly looked more appealing than some of the other tat (ahem BL) on sale in the 70s.
I also think that the mid-90s was a good era for Fiat. My first car was a Fiat Cinquecento Sporting that I inherited from my mum (and which she bought new) when it was 5 years old and it was a fantastic car. You also had the mk1 Punto, mk1 Tipo and the Bravo/Brava (my friend's dad had a Punto GT Turbo and later a Bravo HGT and when we picked up the Cinq it was rubbing shoulders with a metallic blue Fiat Coupe Turbo and an orange barchetta in the showroom, so I was quite a Fiat enthusiast at the time! I (ie my wife) later owned a "new" Fiat 500, which I liked and it was a significant car for Fiat but it didn't drive anywhere like as well as the Cinq and kind of succeeded in killing off the rest of the range.
Absolutely agree with you on peak FIAT being the mid '90s. The were producing class leading cars at the time, and all were very successful. Can't say that today... much as I like the 500 and Panda, nothing else to inspire. Do they actually sell anything else?I also think that the mid-90s was a good era for Fiat. My first car was a Fiat Cinquecento Sporting that I inherited from my mum (and which she bought new) when it was 5 years old and it was a fantastic car. You also had the mk1 Punto, mk1 Tipo and the Bravo/Brava (my friend's dad had a Punto GT Turbo and later a Bravo HGT and when we picked up the Cinq it was rubbing shoulders with a metallic blue Fiat Coupe Turbo and an orange barchetta in the showroom, so I was quite a Fiat enthusiast at the time! I (ie my wife) later owned a "new" Fiat 500, which I liked and it was a significant car for Fiat but it didn't drive anywhere like as well as the Cinq and kind of succeeded in killing off the rest of the range.
For me, FORD were at their very best from late '90s for about 10 years. Another brand now a shadow of its' former self. You could be forgiven if you thought they were slowly exiting the European car market.
BMW are now past their best, which is a shame. The e30 / e36 and e46 were stellar. The e90/e91 were also good, but the e92 coupe never did it for me. The first gen 4 series in coupe and gran coupe guide were the last "3 series" to feature attractive and classic styling. The current design language is politly described as challenging. "Neue Klasse" has a lot riding on it.
Catflap66 said:
white_goodman said:
I thought that the 70s might have been a strong period for Ford but I wasn't around to attest to that. 70s Escorts/Cortinas/Granadas/Capris with their transatlantic styling certainly looked more appealing than some of the other tat (ahem BL) on sale in the 70s.
I also think that the mid-90s was a good era for Fiat. My first car was a Fiat Cinquecento Sporting that I inherited from my mum (and which she bought new) when it was 5 years old and it was a fantastic car. You also had the mk1 Punto, mk1 Tipo and the Bravo/Brava (my friend's dad had a Punto GT Turbo and later a Bravo HGT and when we picked up the Cinq it was rubbing shoulders with a metallic blue Fiat Coupe Turbo and an orange barchetta in the showroom, so I was quite a Fiat enthusiast at the time! I (ie my wife) later owned a "new" Fiat 500, which I liked and it was a significant car for Fiat but it didn't drive anywhere like as well as the Cinq and kind of succeeded in killing off the rest of the range.
Absolutely agree with you on peak FIAT being the mid '90s. The were producing class leading cars at the time, and all were very successful. Can't say that today... much as I like the 500 and Panda, nothing else to inspire. Do they actually sell anything else?I also think that the mid-90s was a good era for Fiat. My first car was a Fiat Cinquecento Sporting that I inherited from my mum (and which she bought new) when it was 5 years old and it was a fantastic car. You also had the mk1 Punto, mk1 Tipo and the Bravo/Brava (my friend's dad had a Punto GT Turbo and later a Bravo HGT and when we picked up the Cinq it was rubbing shoulders with a metallic blue Fiat Coupe Turbo and an orange barchetta in the showroom, so I was quite a Fiat enthusiast at the time! I (ie my wife) later owned a "new" Fiat 500, which I liked and it was a significant car for Fiat but it didn't drive anywhere like as well as the Cinq and kind of succeeded in killing off the rest of the range.
For me, FORD were at their very best from late '90s for about 10 years. Another brand now a shadow of its' former self. You could be forgiven if you thought they were slowly exiting the European car market.
BMW are now past their best, which is a shame. The e30 / e36 and e46 were stellar. The e90/e91 were also good, but the e92 coupe never did it for me. The first gen 4 series in coupe and gran coupe guide were the last "3 series" to feature attractive and classic styling. The current design language is politly described as challenging. "Neue Klasse" has a lot riding on it.
Toyota arguably are still peaking with their almost indestructible hybrid system which is only getting better with each new generation.
Their large 4x4 ranges are now past their peak at least for what we are allowed here, dare say if it wasn't for various eco legislations they'd still be offering the 4.2 turboDiesel 6 which effortlessly powered the 80 and 100 series Landcruisers.
Euro environmental and various taxes has ruined so much.
Volvo peaked in the noughties, still have fond memories of our '93 940 estate with the 2.4 6 pot turboDiesel plucked from the VW LT van range, robust simple and completely reliable, if they still made that exact model with no changes we'd buy one new.
Their large 4x4 ranges are now past their peak at least for what we are allowed here, dare say if it wasn't for various eco legislations they'd still be offering the 4.2 turboDiesel 6 which effortlessly powered the 80 and 100 series Landcruisers.
Euro environmental and various taxes has ruined so much.
Volvo peaked in the noughties, still have fond memories of our '93 940 estate with the 2.4 6 pot turboDiesel plucked from the VW LT van range, robust simple and completely reliable, if they still made that exact model with no changes we'd buy one new.
Peak Ford definitely early 2000's. The Mk1 Focus (1998) was the turning point but then the 2001 facelift and subsequent Mk3 Mondeo (2001) and Mk6 Fiesta (2002) were the peak in my view. A very traditional 3 car small, mid, big offering, all of them drove and looked better than the competition, even in lower trim levels.
When did Mercedes have a bad decade during the 20th century? They were pretty much at the top of their game pre-war, interwar and all the way through to the late '90s.
The '60s was a good decade for Peugeot - stylish, popular products at a time when they started exporting in a big way to emerging markets like Africa.
The '60s was a good decade for Peugeot - stylish, popular products at a time when they started exporting in a big way to emerging markets like Africa.
Edited by Rumdoodle on Thursday 21st August 12:37
Smint said:
Toyota arguably are still peaking with their almost indestructible hybrid system which is only getting better with each new generation.
Their large 4x4 ranges are now past their peak at least for what we are allowed here, dare say if it wasn't for various eco legislations they'd still be offering the 4.2 turboDiesel 6 which effortlessly powered the 80 and 100 series Landcruisers.
Euro environmental and various taxes has ruined so much.
Volvo peaked in the noughties, still have fond memories of our '93 940 estate with the 2.4 6 pot turboDiesel plucked from the VW LT van range, robust simple and completely reliable, if they still made that exact model with no changes we'd buy one new.
It would depend what the definition of "Peak" is for Toyota. In terms of good reliable engineering, it's more of a continuous plateau. If looking for "interesting" cars, they probably peaked in the early 90s with the Supra Turbo and 2nd gen MR2.Their large 4x4 ranges are now past their peak at least for what we are allowed here, dare say if it wasn't for various eco legislations they'd still be offering the 4.2 turboDiesel 6 which effortlessly powered the 80 and 100 series Landcruisers.
Euro environmental and various taxes has ruined so much.
Volvo peaked in the noughties, still have fond memories of our '93 940 estate with the 2.4 6 pot turboDiesel plucked from the VW LT van range, robust simple and completely reliable, if they still made that exact model with no changes we'd buy one new.
What manufacturers are yet to reach their peak though? Kia and Hyundai are possibly still on the up with most new car releases doing better relative to their competitors than their previous iteration.
I'd argue that Dacia has probably peaked already wjth the 2nd generation Duster. Their newer generation cars may be better than the older ones, but they are losing their selling point of being cheap and simple as they once were.
Arguably all the Chinese brands we've not heard of also haven't reached a peak yet, but it's not yet clear how many will be the next Proton or Daewoo and after a few years of pretty average cars just disappear again.
donkmeister said:
Peak Citroen would be the Citroen CX.
With the Xantia/XM they developed the tech further but had lost some of the wackiness.
With the Xantia/XM they developed the tech further but had lost some of the wackiness.
In 1974 Citroen made:
1) The 2CV
2) The Mehari
3) The Dyane
4) The Ami
5) The GS
6) The DS
7) The CX
8) and the SM
Of course, this would be on the eve of the company's collapse into financial disaster and its rescue by PSA, but it's definitely the peak of the marque in terms of its values, products and engineering. What a fantastic line-up of cars, each tailored to suit a niche and each embodying all the creativity and innovation and free-thinking that defined post-war Citroen. We won't see its like again.
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