Warm hatches - gap in the market?

[Ecosseven]

Morning all,

I currently drive what could be called a 'warm' hatch - A manual Seat Leon FR1.8 with 180PS. Looking around for a replacement it is clear that there are virtually no similar cars on sale today - the closest example is probably a Mazda 3 with 186PS.

There are a number of hot hatches on sale today - Golf GTI, Golf R, Skoda Octavia VRS, Cupra Leon, Mercedes A Class A35/45, BMW M135i, Audi S3/RS3, etc but these have at least 265PS and are all over £40k (well over in some cases!).

Is there a gap in the market for those of us that don't need a hot hatch but would like something 'warm' with around 200bhp, decent ride quality, below £40k, and with semi-sensible running costs?

[spreadsheet monkey]

Ecosseven said:

Morning all,

I currently drive what could be called a 'warm' hatch - A manual Seat Leon FR1.8 with 180PS. Looking around for a replacement it is clear that there are virtually no similar cars on sale today - the closest example is probably a Mazda 3 with 186PS.

There are a number of hot hatches on sale today - Golf GTI, Golf R, Skoda Octavia VRS, Cupra Leon, Mercedes A Class A35/45, BMW M135i, Audi S3/RS3, etc but these have at least 265PS and are all over £40k (well over in some cases!).

Is there a gap in the market for those of us that don't need a hot hatch but would like something 'warm' with around 200bhp, decent ride quality, below £40k, and with semi-sensible running costs?

Mainstream manufacturers have given up on this market, but the premium brands will still sell you a hatchback with 180-ish horsepower.

BMW 120i - 176bhp
Merc A220 - 188bhp
Audi A3 2.0 TFSI - 190bhp

[Rowe]

You're looking at the wrong 'level' of car within the models you've listed.

Take the M135i as an example. If you wanted a 'warm' version as you describe, well that would be something like a 125i (depending on what generation you're talking about).

[OddCat]

New Skoda Fabia 130 Edition (175 bhp)

[MDT]

spreadsheet monkey said:

Mainstream manufacturers have given up on this market, but the premium brands will still sell you a hatchback with 180-ish horsepower.

BMW 120i - 176bhp
Merc A220 - 188bhp
Audi A3 2.0 TFSI - 190bhp

But we should remember that all these "warm" hatches will be automatic and I suspect a good bit heavier, so probably need more power to "warm" them up a bit.

[bodhi]

spreadsheet monkey said:

Ecosseven said:

Morning all,

I currently drive what could be called a 'warm' hatch - A manual Seat Leon FR1.8 with 180PS. Looking around for a replacement it is clear that there are virtually no similar cars on sale today - the closest example is probably a Mazda 3 with 186PS.

There are a number of hot hatches on sale today - Golf GTI, Golf R, Skoda Octavia VRS, Cupra Leon, Mercedes A Class A35/45, BMW M135i, Audi S3/RS3, etc but these have at least 265PS and are all over £40k (well over in some cases!).

Is there a gap in the market for those of us that don't need a hot hatch but would like something 'warm' with around 200bhp, decent ride quality, below £40k, and with semi-sensible running costs?

Mainstream manufacturers have given up on this market, but the premium brands will still sell you a hatchback with 180-ish horsepower.

BMW 120i - 176bhp
Merc A220 - 188bhp
Audi A3 2.0 TFSI - 190bhp

BMW have also just snuck out the 123 XDrive, which looks to have just over 200bhp and is below £40k (just).

[MissChief]

There does seem to be a gap in the market. I loved my Focus 1.6 Ecoboost with 180HP. Just enough to be sprightly and for a quick overtake but still good around town and on fuel. I routinely got 45MPG+ on a run and 30-35 around town.

[theicemario]

Of course there are.

MG3 - 192 bhp, can get one new for £17.5k
MINI Cooper S - 201 bhp
Audi A3 40 TFSI e / Cupra equivalent - 201 bhp
BMW 123 - 215 bhp
Polo GTI - 204 bhp
Skoda Fabia 130 - 174 bhp

Edited by theicemario on Tuesday 25th November 12:59

[RB Will]

Mini still sell the Cooper S. 204bhp, 45mpg, £28k probably hard to beat in that segment as an all rounder.

[spreadsheet monkey]

MDT said:

But we should remember that all these "warm" hatches will be automatic and I suspect a good bit heavier, so probably need more power to "warm" them up a bit.

I don't think an A3 is going to be noticeably heavier than a Golf or Leon. Thicker carpet and nicer seat fabric can't weigh *that* much

As for the automatic vs manual debate, the modern automatic gearboxes in a current A3 or 1-series are snappier and more responsive than their manual equivalents, and slightly quicker in most acceleration benchmarks.

Edited by spreadsheet monkey on Tuesday 25th November 13:17

[MDT]

spreadsheet monkey said:

I don't think an A3 is going to be noticeably heavier than a Golf or Leon. Thicker carpet and nicer seat fabric can't weigh *that* much

As for the automatic vs manual debate, the modern automatic gearboxes in a current A3 or 1-series are snappier and more responsive than their manual equivalents, and slightly quicker in most acceleration benchmarks.

Edited by spreadsheet monkey on Tuesday 25th November 13:17

Wow.
The Leon is showing as 1215kg
A3 1.5 TFSI e (204 PS) S Tronic is showing as 1600kg

So I would say 375kg is a fair chunk of thicker carpet... I was shocked too.

As to auto v man boxes yep new autos are very clever an efficient bits of kit, but hot (ok warm) hatch would be more fun / engaging as a manual, as I suspect the Leon is.

[plfrench]

Alpine A290 GT is 178hp and fits that fill perfectly. Well under £40 especially with the grant.

[mmm-five]

MDT said:

Wow.
The Leon is showing as 1215kg
A3 1.5 TFSI e (204 PS) S Tronic is showing as 1600kg

According to Parkers:

• 2020-2024 2.0 187bhp TSI DSG Leon FR is 1383kg
• 2020-2024 1.5 201bhp eHybrid DSG Leon is 1545kg

So the Leon hybrid has a very similar weight to the Audi A3 1.5 hybrid version.

A Hyundai i20N has 200bhp and weighs 1200kg.

Edited by mmm-five on Tuesday 25th November 14:17

[MDT]

mmm-five said:

According to Parkers:

• 2020-2024 2.0 187bhp TSI DSG Leon FR is 1383kg
• 2020-2024 1.5 201bhp eHybrid DSG Leon is 1545kg

So the Leon hybrid has a very similar weight to the Audi A3 1.5 hybrid version.

A Hyundai i20N has 200bhp and weighs 1200kg.

Edited by mmm-five on Tuesday 25th November 14:17

yes but the OP said he had " A manual Seat Leon FR1.8 with 180PS" which is what I looked up.

[CraigyMc]

MDT said:

mmm-five said:

According to Parkers:

• 2020-2024 2.0 187bhp TSI DSG Leon FR is 1383kg
• 2020-2024 1.5 201bhp eHybrid DSG Leon is 1545kg

So the Leon hybrid has a very similar weight to the Audi A3 1.5 hybrid version.

A Hyundai i20N has 200bhp and weighs 1200kg.

Edited by mmm-five on Tuesday 25th November 14:17

yes but the OP said he had " A manual Seat Leon FR1.8 with 180PS" which is what I looked up.

How come you didn't land on https://www.parkers.co.uk/seat/leon/st-2014/fr-tec... and 1280kg then?

[mmm-five]

CraigyMc said:

How come you didn't land on https://www.parkers.co.uk/seat/leon/st-2014/fr-tec... and 1280kg then?

Because I was comparing the weights of current/latest gen vehicles.

If you add the extra weight of a modern hybrid system to that older model, you'd be at near 1500kg too

[theicemario]

MDT said:

Wow.
The Leon is showing as 1215kg
A3 1.5 TFSI e (204 PS) S Tronic is showing as 1600kg

So I would say 375kg is a fair chunk of thicker carpet... I was shocked too.

As to auto v man boxes yep new autos are very clever an efficient bits of kit, but hot (ok warm) hatch would be more fun / engaging as a manual, as I suspect the Leon is.

New Audi A3 with 89 miles of electric range weighs more than a pure-ICE Leon. Shock, horror.

[PomBstard]

Not sure of the UK version, but the Aus-spec Hyundai i30 N-Line was 200bhp from a 1.6T closely related to that in the i20N. I bought one, new, in early 2020 for equivalent of £15k and it’s a brilliantly fun car. Ride/handling is top-notch, 0-60 in about 7s, 6-sp manual, and it’s been totally reliable over nearly 6 years.

I think new ones are some sort of 1.5T hybrid with only about 140bhp and auto only, which is a shame.