The cars of the 2000s were the "best". Discuss...
Discussion
I'm increasingly of the opinion that modern cars aren't really my thing and that I should have just bought a new/nearly new (probably "premium") car in the 2000s and just looked after it and kept it.
As much as I enjoy older cars from the 1980s and 1990s, I think that on balance, cars from the 2000s era (2000-2009) were the best for the following reasons:
1) Decent passive safety;
2) Fundamentally reliable - most cars had fuel injection but still relatively simple, not strangled by emissions tech, not many highly stressed small capacity/high specific output turbocharged engines with "wet" belts/DPFs/"dry clutch" twin clutch gearboxes etc;
3) Relatively elegant/unfussy styling;
4) Refined enough to use every day;
5) Good rust protection for the most part;
6) Relatively cheap to fix and still good parts availability for the most part;
7) Decent level of performance, still some steering feel and most ride decently;
8) Good level of standard equipment ie most cars had AC, electric windows/mirrors, central locking, CD player etc, so easy to live with every day;
9) Most cars had decent heating.
10) Still a decent choice of bodystyles/engine configurations.
The only drawback is lighting and tech but you can work around that with retro-fit LED lighting and aftermarket infotainment upgrades (Android Auto/Apple Carplay/Bluetooth) these days.
I would happily run any of the following over the modern equivalent if I could find a nice one.
Last of the E46 3-Series/E39 5-Series/E38 7-Series with a straight six engine
W204 C-Class/W211 E-Class/C208/C209 CLK
C6 Audi A6
X350/X358 Jaguar XJ
Volvo S60/V70 with a 5 cylinder petrol/diesel engine
L322/L320 FFRR/RRS
Mk5 Golf GTI
My colleague runs a 15 year old Audi A6 (C6), 3.0 TDI quattro with the Tiptronic transmission as his daily and it's a lovely old thing.
Having said that, even the basic family cars like the Golf/Focus/Astra of that era were really good and the hot hatch had also made a proper comeback with strong offerings from Ford/Vauxhall/Renault/Honda/VW/Seat etc.
Granted, some cars of this era weren't the best (Peugeot/Citroen/Renault) but on the whole, since the 2000s, most cars have only got uglier, less reliable, less good to drive, overly complex and more annoying to interact with. Even my 2015 Renault Clio (a relatively simple car) has malfunctioning TPMS sensors, the keyless entry doesn't work properly, the Bluetooth calling doesn't work that great and the satnav "bongs" at me constantly for reason that eludes me. Fortunately it still drives quite well and lacks lane departure intervention (probably the feature that I hate the most in modern cars) but I'm kind of the opinion that it would be all the better without any of the above features, as the fact that they don't work/don't work well would be a non-issue.
So, do you think that the cars of the 2000s were the "best"/"peak car" or do you think that the improvements in engineering/technology in cars since the 2000s have been worthwhile? Discuss!
As much as I enjoy older cars from the 1980s and 1990s, I think that on balance, cars from the 2000s era (2000-2009) were the best for the following reasons:
1) Decent passive safety;
2) Fundamentally reliable - most cars had fuel injection but still relatively simple, not strangled by emissions tech, not many highly stressed small capacity/high specific output turbocharged engines with "wet" belts/DPFs/"dry clutch" twin clutch gearboxes etc;
3) Relatively elegant/unfussy styling;
4) Refined enough to use every day;
5) Good rust protection for the most part;
6) Relatively cheap to fix and still good parts availability for the most part;
7) Decent level of performance, still some steering feel and most ride decently;
8) Good level of standard equipment ie most cars had AC, electric windows/mirrors, central locking, CD player etc, so easy to live with every day;
9) Most cars had decent heating.
10) Still a decent choice of bodystyles/engine configurations.
The only drawback is lighting and tech but you can work around that with retro-fit LED lighting and aftermarket infotainment upgrades (Android Auto/Apple Carplay/Bluetooth) these days.
I would happily run any of the following over the modern equivalent if I could find a nice one.
Last of the E46 3-Series/E39 5-Series/E38 7-Series with a straight six engine
W204 C-Class/W211 E-Class/C208/C209 CLK
C6 Audi A6
X350/X358 Jaguar XJ
Volvo S60/V70 with a 5 cylinder petrol/diesel engine
L322/L320 FFRR/RRS
Mk5 Golf GTI
My colleague runs a 15 year old Audi A6 (C6), 3.0 TDI quattro with the Tiptronic transmission as his daily and it's a lovely old thing.
Having said that, even the basic family cars like the Golf/Focus/Astra of that era were really good and the hot hatch had also made a proper comeback with strong offerings from Ford/Vauxhall/Renault/Honda/VW/Seat etc.
Granted, some cars of this era weren't the best (Peugeot/Citroen/Renault) but on the whole, since the 2000s, most cars have only got uglier, less reliable, less good to drive, overly complex and more annoying to interact with. Even my 2015 Renault Clio (a relatively simple car) has malfunctioning TPMS sensors, the keyless entry doesn't work properly, the Bluetooth calling doesn't work that great and the satnav "bongs" at me constantly for reason that eludes me. Fortunately it still drives quite well and lacks lane departure intervention (probably the feature that I hate the most in modern cars) but I'm kind of the opinion that it would be all the better without any of the above features, as the fact that they don't work/don't work well would be a non-issue.
So, do you think that the cars of the 2000s were the "best"/"peak car" or do you think that the improvements in engineering/technology in cars since the 2000s have been worthwhile? Discuss!
I think it's too simplistic to say a particular era was "best".
My favourite era was the late 50s into the 60s but there's no denying that cars of that era were objectively pretty crap compared to modern cars.
I think the best cars at being cars (as opposed to being hobbies), despite the annoyance of modern electronic nannies, is now and cars will continue to get better at that primary role. I'd be very interested to know why you think cars have got less reliable, because I've never seen any evidence to back up that claim! I think peak reliability is now.
So I just don't have a "best" era, different eras have done different things well. If I absolutely had to pick a single best era I'd probably say now because for most motorists, I think that's the correct answer.
ETA: I must admit for me the 2000s certainly wouldn't feature because for my preferences that era was, in the main, the worst of all worlds. Mainstream cars had got heavy enough and numb enough to be rather boring to drive, without having the creature comforts and safety of modern cars. I also, by and large, don't like FWD which had become the default layout for most cars by 2000.
My favourite era was the late 50s into the 60s but there's no denying that cars of that era were objectively pretty crap compared to modern cars.
I think the best cars at being cars (as opposed to being hobbies), despite the annoyance of modern electronic nannies, is now and cars will continue to get better at that primary role. I'd be very interested to know why you think cars have got less reliable, because I've never seen any evidence to back up that claim! I think peak reliability is now.
So I just don't have a "best" era, different eras have done different things well. If I absolutely had to pick a single best era I'd probably say now because for most motorists, I think that's the correct answer.
ETA: I must admit for me the 2000s certainly wouldn't feature because for my preferences that era was, in the main, the worst of all worlds. Mainstream cars had got heavy enough and numb enough to be rather boring to drive, without having the creature comforts and safety of modern cars. I also, by and large, don't like FWD which had become the default layout for most cars by 2000.
Edited by kambites on Friday 27th March 11:22
not sure of exact dates. but my issues with modern is:
- tall eco gearing
- throttle mapping
- weight
- ADAS bings bongs and worse
- over complexity leading to v high repair costs
most of the rest is welcome advancement. I guess with weight it should be my choice to have all safety systems or compromise, as I can't have both at a low price.
- tall eco gearing
- throttle mapping
- weight
- ADAS bings bongs and worse
- over complexity leading to v high repair costs
most of the rest is welcome advancement. I guess with weight it should be my choice to have all safety systems or compromise, as I can't have both at a low price.
This is pretty much the reason I'm still daily driving my E46 M3. It's generally very reliable (although does get a lot of preventative maintenance), is nice to drive, and £ per mile factoring everything in isn't too bad. I just wish I could find a reliable android head unit - decent sat nav and spotify would be handy.
The only modern car I've driven that I actually liked and would consider buying is the Polestar 2, but I've no idea how reliable that would prove long term.
The only modern car I've driven that I actually liked and would consider buying is the Polestar 2, but I've no idea how reliable that would prove long term.
I'm always wary that one's age/era might introduce a little confirmation bias into these threads but I basically agree. I'm mid 40's and most of my favourite cars are 90's and 00's. And as someone who works on my own cars, I would also agree with the comments about rust protection, servicing etc. Reliability too but then I would say newer cars are also very reliable but they can be more complex and certainly more expensive to fix.
A pet peeve of mine is that somewhere around mid 00's and beyond, cars slowly started to lose having a standard spare wheel and in many cases even the space to fit one was designed out.
Tech has obviously 'improved' in recent years though not that much of it interests me and some of it is a downright nuisance. Performance across the board has improved but I personally wasn't asking for that. You can go right back to the 80's and still be spoilt for choice for cars that have more than enough performance for the road.
If you told me to pick a decade of cars to build a collection from and I could have nothing else, I think it would be 00's. Though 90's is running it close. I just think everyday cars from the 00's are better and reliability is improved too. Biggest issue in doing this for real would be parts availability. It's a real mixed bag. Some manufacturers are brilliant for this, some are a disaster.
A pet peeve of mine is that somewhere around mid 00's and beyond, cars slowly started to lose having a standard spare wheel and in many cases even the space to fit one was designed out.
Tech has obviously 'improved' in recent years though not that much of it interests me and some of it is a downright nuisance. Performance across the board has improved but I personally wasn't asking for that. You can go right back to the 80's and still be spoilt for choice for cars that have more than enough performance for the road.
If you told me to pick a decade of cars to build a collection from and I could have nothing else, I think it would be 00's. Though 90's is running it close. I just think everyday cars from the 00's are better and reliability is improved too. Biggest issue in doing this for real would be parts availability. It's a real mixed bag. Some manufacturers are brilliant for this, some are a disaster.
I did. I initially bought a Corvette C5 Z06 but changed that for a supercharged 2005 Mustang GT which is far from a daily driver with only 17k on the clock and almost as good as new.
My two dailies are Panda 169s, one 2009, the other 2011. Little changed over the lifetime if the Panda from 2003 save bigger door mirrors. Perfect little cars, lost when they blobbed it in 2012.
As for modern cars, my 2019 Mazda MX5 RF creeps in with it's electric roof and driving "aids" that can all be turned off permanently.
Modern cars you can keep with their driver aids, hybrid nonsense and incomprehensible electronics and crap touchscreens. I will say, in their defence that bluetoothing Google Maps to the screen is the one thing I found useful as in-car sat navs tend to go out of date.
My two dailies are Panda 169s, one 2009, the other 2011. Little changed over the lifetime if the Panda from 2003 save bigger door mirrors. Perfect little cars, lost when they blobbed it in 2012.
As for modern cars, my 2019 Mazda MX5 RF creeps in with it's electric roof and driving "aids" that can all be turned off permanently.
Modern cars you can keep with their driver aids, hybrid nonsense and incomprehensible electronics and crap touchscreens. I will say, in their defence that bluetoothing Google Maps to the screen is the one thing I found useful as in-car sat navs tend to go out of date.
kambites said:
I think it's too simplistic to say a particular era was "best".
My favourite era was the late 50s into the 60s but there's no denying that cars of that era were objectively pretty crap compared to modern cars.
I think the best cars at being cars (as opposed to being hobbies), despite the annoyance of modern electronic nannies, is now and cars will continue to get better at that primary role. I'd be very interested to know why you think cars have got less reliable, because I've never seen any evidence to back up that claim! I think peak reliability is now.
So I just don't have a "best" era, different eras have done different things well. If I absolutely had to pick a single best era I'd probably say now because for most motorists, I think that's the correct answer.
ETA: I must admit for me the 2000s certainly wouldn't feature because for my preferences that era was, in the main, the worst of all worlds. Mainstream cars had got heavy enough and numb enough to be rather boring to drive, without having the creature comforts and safety of modern cars.
I gave the example of the things not working on my 2015 Clio. The 2005 equivalent just wouldn't have had those features, so non-issue. Anecdotally, the cars that I have run from the 2000s era have been the most reliable. You make a good point but I think the era that you talk about was a bit earlier (mid-90s). Take my mk3 Astra. It was heavier and more substantial, therefore safer than the mk2 but the engines/chassis weren't really upgraded so it was slower/didn't handle as well as the mk2.My favourite era was the late 50s into the 60s but there's no denying that cars of that era were objectively pretty crap compared to modern cars.
I think the best cars at being cars (as opposed to being hobbies), despite the annoyance of modern electronic nannies, is now and cars will continue to get better at that primary role. I'd be very interested to know why you think cars have got less reliable, because I've never seen any evidence to back up that claim! I think peak reliability is now.
So I just don't have a "best" era, different eras have done different things well. If I absolutely had to pick a single best era I'd probably say now because for most motorists, I think that's the correct answer.
ETA: I must admit for me the 2000s certainly wouldn't feature because for my preferences that era was, in the main, the worst of all worlds. Mainstream cars had got heavy enough and numb enough to be rather boring to drive, without having the creature comforts and safety of modern cars.
Edited by kambites on Friday 27th March 11:19
I think that legislation/emissions regs/the pursuit of that little bit of extra efficiency/cost savings have led to some design flaws and needless complexity/wear. Start/stop, extended service intervals, "wet" belt engines, "dry clutch" twin clutch transmissions being just a few examples. Lots of issues with Stellantis/VAG/Ford engines/transmissions failing which wouldn't have been such a frequent issue with simpler/more established tech. Mazda for instance seem to have mostly stayed with NA petrol engines and torque converter automatic transmissions and this has seemed to have served them well in terms of reliability vs. those other manufacturers (we won't mention their diesel engines though)!
Starsky80 said:
I'm increasingly of the opinion that modern cars aren't really my thing and that I should have just bought a new/nearly new (probably "premium") car in the 2000s and just looked after it and kept it.
The used car market agrees with you!Look at the prices that decent E90/E91 BMWs sell for, and look at the (frankly mental) long-running thread on PH that is devoted to them.
Starsky80 said:
I gave the example of the things not working on my 2015 Clio. The 2005 equivalent just wouldn't have had those features, so non-issue.
It's not really fair to mark one car down vs another in terms of reliability because a particular feature fails when the other car doesn't have it at all! Unless having the failed feature is materially worse than not having it at all, of course. There have been reliable and unreliable cars in every era, but I'm pretty sure that the mean average amount of maintenance required for a car to get to, say, 15 years old and/or 100k miles has only gone down over the years. Obviously there's no right answer because everyone has different priorities, but for me the 2000s would definitely be near the bottom of the list.
Edited by kambites on Friday 27th March 11:42
Pica-Pica said:
E36 BMW was my best. Not too big (4.4m long)?
Decent turning circle.
Good turning circle.
Spare wheel
straight six petrol (mine was 2.5 litre)
I kept it for 19 years and 150k miles.
Rust got to it, butt I would have bought the same again, if it was still sold.
Good point about size. Cars have got bigger but the roads/parking spaces haven't and yet bigger doesn't necessarily equate to more interior space.Decent turning circle.
Good turning circle.
Spare wheel
straight six petrol (mine was 2.5 litre)
I kept it for 19 years and 150k miles.
Rust got to it, butt I would have bought the same again, if it was still sold.
Starsky80 said:
I would happily run any of the following over the modern equivalent if I could find a nice one.
Last of the E46 3-Series/E39 5-Series/E38 7-Series with a straight six engine
W204 C-Class/W211 E-Class/C208/C209 CLK
C6 Audi A6
X350/X358 Jaguar XJ
Volvo S60/V70 with a 5 cylinder petrol/diesel engine
L322/L320 FFRR/RRS
Mk5 Golf GTI
Good condition low mileage examples of all of these are readily available from the "modern classic" dealers (KGF, Old Colonel Cars, Swallows Jaguar etc), or marketplaces like Carandclassic.com or the PH classifieds.Last of the E46 3-Series/E39 5-Series/E38 7-Series with a straight six engine
W204 C-Class/W211 E-Class/C208/C209 CLK
C6 Audi A6
X350/X358 Jaguar XJ
Volvo S60/V70 with a 5 cylinder petrol/diesel engine
L322/L320 FFRR/RRS
Mk5 Golf GTI
Not necessarily cheap, but they are out there. Set your search criteria and go get one!
Starsky80 said:
Pica-Pica said:
E36 BMW was my best. Not too big (4.4m long)?
Decent turning circle.
Good turning circle.
Spare wheel
straight six petrol (mine was 2.5 litre)
I kept it for 19 years and 150k miles.
Rust got to it, butt I would have bought the same again, if it was still sold.
Good point about size. Cars have got bigger but the roads/parking spaces haven't and yet bigger doesn't necessarily equate to more interior space.Decent turning circle.
Good turning circle.
Spare wheel
straight six petrol (mine was 2.5 litre)
I kept it for 19 years and 150k miles.
Rust got to it, butt I would have bought the same again, if it was still sold.
Also emissions. Early 2000's we had cats and that's about it. Now we have more problems with emissions equipment than ever.
Starsky80 said:
Last of the E46 3-Series/E39 5-Series/E38 7-Series with a straight six engine
W204 C-Class/W211 E-Class/C208/C209 CLK
C6 Audi A6
X350/X358 Jaguar XJ
Volvo S60/V70 with a 5 cylinder petrol/diesel engine
L322/L320 FFRR/RRS
Mk5 Golf GTI
Rose tinted glasses off:W204 C-Class/W211 E-Class/C208/C209 CLK
C6 Audi A6
X350/X358 Jaguar XJ
Volvo S60/V70 with a 5 cylinder petrol/diesel engine
L322/L320 FFRR/RRS
Mk5 Golf GTI
Last of the E46 3-Series/E39 5-Series/E38 7-Series with a straight six engine - corrosion problems, straight 6 petrol suffers from lots of coolant system and head gasket issues
W204 C-Class/W211 E-Class/C208/C209 CLK - the W211 suffered from horrendous corrosion and wasn't particularly reliable, I know as I owned one. Merc only started to get a grip on build quality and corrosion resistance by the end of the noughties.
Volvo S60/V70 with a 5 cylinder petrol/diesel engine - a good workhorse, but real bags of s
te to drive in comparison to modern equivalentsMk5 Golf GTI - these were corroding away on the front arches about a decade ago, not sure how many are left now
kambites said:
Starsky80 said:
I gave the example of the things not working on my 2015 Clio. The 2005 equivalent just wouldn't have had those features, so non-issue.
It's not really fair to mark one car down vs another in terms of reliability because a particular feature fails when the other car doesn't have it at all! Unless having the failed feature is materially worse than not having it at all, of course. There have been reliable and unreliable cars in every era, but I'm pretty sure that the mean average amount of maintenance required for a car to get to, say, 15 years old and/or 100k miles has only gone down over the years. Obviously there's no right answer because everyone has different priorities, but for me the 2000s would definitely be near the bottom of the list.
Edited by kambites on Friday 27th March 11:42
Olivera said:
Rose tinted glasses off:
I took the discussion to be about desirability of driving characteristics. For sure there’s been progress in safety, materials, engineering,manufacturing, design etc. But as driver’s cars we’ve gone backwards. Despite the number of rads and hoses in an EV they’re still incredibly reliable.
The driving component that has improved is suspension, although you can always retrofit that.
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