RE: Toyota fuel cell prototype set for Dakar Rally
Yesterday
Toyota fuel cell prototype set for Dakar Rally
Don't think Toyota is moving quickly enough with FCEVs? New GR FC Hilux is meant to prove it's ready for anything
Toyota will endeavour to bring water to the desert next year when it fields a fuel cell-powered Hilux in the Future Mission 1000 class of the Dakar Rally. While it’s not the first FCEV to compete in Dakar’s alternative energy class - that honour went to France’s GCK Motorsport back in 2024 - or even GR’s first involvement with an H2-powered entrant, it will be the first time a major manufacturer has made the switch as a factory outfit, meaning there’s a more direct link between the lessons learned by Gazoo Racing on the sand and development of its tech for future roadgoing vehicles than ever before.
Still, given that Toyota was once a trailblazer for hydrogen fuel cell tech, putting the first mass-produced FCEV available to buy, the Mirai, on sale back in 2014, it’s perhaps surprising to note that the Hilux is its first FCEV to face the Saudi dunes. But Toyota seems to be making up for lost time as it’s been on a bit of a roll this year, not only demonstrating the potential of liquid hydrogen with its TR LH2 Racing Prototype at Le Mans 24 Hours, but also actually racing the first liquid-hydrogen-powered GR Corolla in the Super Taikyu Series. That car uses a modified version of the road car’s (and GR Yaris’s)1.6-litre three-pot.
By contrast (and perhaps disappointingly), the DKR GR Hilux does away completely with the 3.4-litre V6 that usually powers the DKR GR Hilux, instead using fuel cells to compete in the Future Mission class’s 1,000-kilometre route. While it’s about a quarter of the full rally course, it still promises to offer all of the usual hellish Dakar challenges, like consistent 40-degree daytime temps outside, and 50-degree temps inside the cockpit for good measure, even with the air con on.
“The gruelling course pushes vehicles and drivers to their limits as it winds its way through sand dunes, rocky unpaved roads and dry riverbeds,” said Gazoo Racing in its announcement. “Lessons learned from developing and running the DKR GR FC Hilux will contribute to the wider application of fuel cell technology in passenger cars, trucks, buses, trains, marine applications, race cars and stationary power generators.”
Gazoo Racing expects its Dakar experience to help not only with the development of heat management technology, but also the downsizing of fuel cells. This would help to make FCEVs lighter, a benefit not only to chewed-up road surfaces, but also handling and ride comfort, not to mention the challenge of packaging. Even if many of us would prefer Toyota to focus its full attention on developing liquid hydrogen cars - so that ICE engines might live on - few would deny the advantages of production-ready FCEVs over socket-based solutions.
Oh, and if you’re wondering why Toyota is so adamant about moving forward on hydrogen at a time when everyone else seems obsessed with conventional EV tech, an insider told PH at Le Mans that it has more than a little to do with the country’s natural resources. As an island with no rare earth minerals or exploitable oil of its own, it has to rely on imports to develop the associated technologies. Hydrogen, meanwhile, is the most abundant gas in the universe. Obviously that hasn't solved the infrastructure issues associated with fuel cells - but one day at a time, right? Or perhaps that should be one international motorsport event at a time...
Discussion
Well, good luck to them persisting with it. But Hydrogen power is a proven dead end as a means of propulsion. Way too inefficient to make, and way too hard to handle to be practical en masse. And the line about Japan not having its own natural resources…..how does hydrogen fix that vs electricity?
Keep fossil fuel ICE for the special/hard to electrify use cases, and everything else goes electric. Emissions slashed to sustainable levels, everybody happy. Even those who don’t understand physics.
Keep fossil fuel ICE for the special/hard to electrify use cases, and everything else goes electric. Emissions slashed to sustainable levels, everybody happy. Even those who don’t understand physics.
Cristio Nasser said:
Well, good luck to them persisting with it. But Hydrogen power is a proven dead end as a means of propulsion. Way too inefficient to make, and way too hard to handle to be practical en masse. And the line about Japan not having its own natural resources ..how does hydrogen fix that vs electricity?
Keep fossil fuel ICE for the special/hard to electrify use cases, and everything else goes electric. Emissions slashed to sustainable levels, everybody happy. Even those who don t understand physics.
No mate, this is evidence that “Hydrogen is the future” for folk that hate EVs but don’t realise that a Hydrogen car is an EV with a worse way of storing energy Keep fossil fuel ICE for the special/hard to electrify use cases, and everything else goes electric. Emissions slashed to sustainable levels, everybody happy. Even those who don t understand physics.
I think some do believe it’s just more gassy petrol you burn in a piston engine that satisfies the “eco loons”, and of course you can run a piston engine on it but it’s a rather costly and inefficient way to go much slower than using rename energy in an EV.
Andy86GT said:
There is a case for using hydrogen as a way of storing excess energy.
For example, I understand that some Scottish wind farms get paid to be turned off when there is too much production!
Why not use the spare energy to create hydrogen, then it makes sense however inefficient it is.
If the utilisation and round trip efficiency is so poor that there is insufficient ROI on all the plant, equipment and ongoing maintenance required, does it still make sense?For example, I understand that some Scottish wind farms get paid to be turned off when there is too much production!
Why not use the spare energy to create hydrogen, then it makes sense however inefficient it is.
GT9 said:
Andy86GT said:
There is a case for using hydrogen as a way of storing excess energy.
For example, I understand that some Scottish wind farms get paid to be turned off when there is too much production!
Why not use the spare energy to create hydrogen, then it makes sense however inefficient it is.
If the utilisation and round trip efficiency is so poor that there is insufficient ROI on all the plant, equipment and ongoing maintenance required, does it still make sense?For example, I understand that some Scottish wind farms get paid to be turned off when there is too much production!
Why not use the spare energy to create hydrogen, then it makes sense however inefficient it is.
Andy86GT said:
GT9 said:
Andy86GT said:
There is a case for using hydrogen as a way of storing excess energy.
For example, I understand that some Scottish wind farms get paid to be turned off when there is too much production!
Why not use the spare energy to create hydrogen, then it makes sense however inefficient it is.
If the utilisation and round trip efficiency is so poor that there is insufficient ROI on all the plant, equipment and ongoing maintenance required, does it still make sense?For example, I understand that some Scottish wind farms get paid to be turned off when there is too much production!
Why not use the spare energy to create hydrogen, then it makes sense however inefficient it is.
Andy86GT said:
GT9 said:
Andy86GT said:
There is a case for using hydrogen as a way of storing excess energy.
For example, I understand that some Scottish wind farms get paid to be turned off when there is too much production!
Why not use the spare energy to create hydrogen, then it makes sense however inefficient it is.
If the utilisation and round trip efficiency is so poor that there is insufficient ROI on all the plant, equipment and ongoing maintenance required, does it still make sense?For example, I understand that some Scottish wind farms get paid to be turned off when there is too much production!
Why not use the spare energy to create hydrogen, then it makes sense however inefficient it is.
Hydrogen vehicles work great for motorsport - where the hydrogen tank can completely fill the space passengers would normally occupy, there is a team of mechanics on hand to fix issues, and a hydrogen fill up point at every finish line.
Hydrogen road cars have been available for over 10 years, but few people buy them, and the infrastructure is closing down....even in California they failed.
As has already been posted
Hydrogen road cars have been available for over 10 years, but few people buy them, and the infrastructure is closing down....even in California they failed.
As has already been posted
J4CKO said:
Hydrogen is the future for folk that hate EVs but don't realise that a Hydrogen car is an EV with a worse way of storing energy
All facts not opinion If we continue to insist on hobbling our economy with the highest electricity prices in the world thanks to our over-dependence on taxpayer subsidy-gobbling, unpredictable and intermittent windmills, then at least the spare electricity can be put to good use by powering electrolysis to produce hydrogen.
Hydrogen has the highest energy density by weight of any common fuel, and is nearly three times the energy density of traditional fossil fuels. Electrolysis of hydrogen would also help to solve grid congestion and prevents operators from having to curtail, or switch off their turbines when supply exceeds demand, and of course hydrogen is a good way to store energy.
Unlike the European manufacturers who put all their eggs in the EV basket, and are now as a result in very bad financial shape, laying off staff and taking a hit from cheap Chinese EV’s, Toyota seem to be going from strength to strength at the moment. They have predicted that EV’s will only ever be appropriate for use in around 30% of global vehicle passenger transport.
Turns out that despite the incessant government meddling from ministers and civil servants without a clue about basic economics, it looks like they are correct, and have judged the current and future markets to perfection. So hats off to Toyota!
Hydrogen has the highest energy density by weight of any common fuel, and is nearly three times the energy density of traditional fossil fuels. Electrolysis of hydrogen would also help to solve grid congestion and prevents operators from having to curtail, or switch off their turbines when supply exceeds demand, and of course hydrogen is a good way to store energy.
Unlike the European manufacturers who put all their eggs in the EV basket, and are now as a result in very bad financial shape, laying off staff and taking a hit from cheap Chinese EV’s, Toyota seem to be going from strength to strength at the moment. They have predicted that EV’s will only ever be appropriate for use in around 30% of global vehicle passenger transport.
Turns out that despite the incessant government meddling from ministers and civil servants without a clue about basic economics, it looks like they are correct, and have judged the current and future markets to perfection. So hats off to Toyota!
Interesting. I wonder if this could be a potential demonstrator for military sales. If a military customer was interested in EV for reliability reasons, this could be a potential solution for being away from power sources. Obviously comes with the disadvantage of storing a large amount of explosive gas when you're under fire... it'll never be a viable civilian road transport solution though.
Dysonfury said:
If we continue to insist on hobbling our economy with the highest electricity prices in the world thanks to our over-dependence on taxpayer subsidy-gobbling, unpredictable and intermittent windmills, then at least the spare electricity can be put to good use by powering electrolysis to produce hydrogen.
Hydrogen has the highest energy density by weight of any common fuel, and is nearly three times the energy density of traditional fossil fuels. Electrolysis of hydrogen would also help to solve grid congestion and prevents operators from having to curtail, or switch off their turbines when supply exceeds demand, and of course hydrogen is a good way to store energy.
Unlike the European manufacturers who put all their eggs in the EV basket, and are now as a result in very bad financial shape, laying off staff and taking a hit from cheap Chinese EV s, Toyota seem to be going from strength to strength at the moment. They have predicted that EV s will only ever be appropriate for use in around 30% of global vehicle passenger transport.
Turns out that despite the incessant government meddling from ministers and civil servants without a clue about basic economics, it looks like they are correct, and have judged the current and future markets to perfection. So hats off to Toyota!
Dont be silly with all that common sense. For sure the ability to store energy is were the effort should be, but that is not what the government is going to do. Hydrogen has the highest energy density by weight of any common fuel, and is nearly three times the energy density of traditional fossil fuels. Electrolysis of hydrogen would also help to solve grid congestion and prevents operators from having to curtail, or switch off their turbines when supply exceeds demand, and of course hydrogen is a good way to store energy.
Unlike the European manufacturers who put all their eggs in the EV basket, and are now as a result in very bad financial shape, laying off staff and taking a hit from cheap Chinese EV s, Toyota seem to be going from strength to strength at the moment. They have predicted that EV s will only ever be appropriate for use in around 30% of global vehicle passenger transport.
Turns out that despite the incessant government meddling from ministers and civil servants without a clue about basic economics, it looks like they are correct, and have judged the current and future markets to perfection. So hats off to Toyota!
Scotland is the guinea pig, we have two power stations Torness and Peterhead. Both reaching end of life, they tried and failed to find someone to refurb the latter gas power station. Torness being Nuclear will almost certainly be closed by 2028. Interesting times.
Dysonfury said:
Hydrogen has the highest energy density by weight of any common fuel, and is nearly three times the energy density of traditional fossil fuels.
Correct......but, (and it's a big one !)Because it is the lightest element in the universe, it takes up a massive amount of space. To store enough hydrogen to be useful, it must be compressed to extreme pressures, like 700 bar/10,000 PSI, or liquefied at cryogenic temperatures of -300c
So, not so great as you made out
timrud said:
I'm sure the cult of EV will be along with their usual positivity
Already out in full force. Hard to argue with it though, Hydrogen does seem a strange option.
Dysonfury said:
If we continue to insist on hobbling our economy with the highest electricity prices in the world thanks to our over-dependence on taxpayer subsidy-gobbling, unpredictable and intermittent windmills, then at least the spare electricity can be put to good use by powering electrolysis to produce hydrogen.
Hydrogen has the highest energy density by weight of any common fuel, and is nearly three times the energy density of traditional fossil fuels. Electrolysis of hydrogen would also help to solve grid congestion and prevents operators from having to curtail, or switch off their turbines when supply exceeds demand, and of course hydrogen is a good way to store energy.
Unlike the European manufacturers who put all their eggs in the EV basket, and are now as a result in very bad financial shape, laying off staff and taking a hit from cheap Chinese EV s, Toyota seem to be going from strength to strength at the moment. They have predicted that EV s will only ever be appropriate for use in around 30% of global vehicle passenger transport.
Turns out that despite the incessant government meddling from ministers and civil servants without a clue about basic economics, it looks like they are correct, and have judged the current and future markets to perfection. So hats off to Toyota!
This does seem like a viable argument though. Hydrogen has the highest energy density by weight of any common fuel, and is nearly three times the energy density of traditional fossil fuels. Electrolysis of hydrogen would also help to solve grid congestion and prevents operators from having to curtail, or switch off their turbines when supply exceeds demand, and of course hydrogen is a good way to store energy.
Unlike the European manufacturers who put all their eggs in the EV basket, and are now as a result in very bad financial shape, laying off staff and taking a hit from cheap Chinese EV s, Toyota seem to be going from strength to strength at the moment. They have predicted that EV s will only ever be appropriate for use in around 30% of global vehicle passenger transport.
Turns out that despite the incessant government meddling from ministers and civil servants without a clue about basic economics, it looks like they are correct, and have judged the current and future markets to perfection. So hats off to Toyota!
Dysonfury said:
If we continue to insist on hobbling our economy with the highest electricity prices in the world thanks to our over-dependence on taxpayer subsidy-gobbling, unpredictable and intermittent windmills, then at least the spare electricity can be put to good use by powering electrolysis to produce hydrogen.
Hydrogen has the highest energy density by weight of any common fuel, and is nearly three times the energy density of traditional fossil fuels. Electrolysis of hydrogen would also help to solve grid congestion and prevents operators from having to curtail, or switch off their turbines when supply exceeds demand, and of course hydrogen is a good way to store energy.
Unlike the European manufacturers who put all their eggs in the EV basket, and are now as a result in very bad financial shape, laying off staff and taking a hit from cheap Chinese EV s, Toyota seem to be going from strength to strength at the moment. They have predicted that EV s will only ever be appropriate for use in around 30% of global vehicle passenger transport.
Turns out that despite the incessant government meddling from ministers and civil servants without a clue about basic economics, it looks like they are correct, and have judged the current and future markets to perfection. So hats off to Toyota!
Yeah, lets buy more Oil and Gas, that doesnt hobble the economy when someone farts in the middle east now does it.Hydrogen has the highest energy density by weight of any common fuel, and is nearly three times the energy density of traditional fossil fuels. Electrolysis of hydrogen would also help to solve grid congestion and prevents operators from having to curtail, or switch off their turbines when supply exceeds demand, and of course hydrogen is a good way to store energy.
Unlike the European manufacturers who put all their eggs in the EV basket, and are now as a result in very bad financial shape, laying off staff and taking a hit from cheap Chinese EV s, Toyota seem to be going from strength to strength at the moment. They have predicted that EV s will only ever be appropriate for use in around 30% of global vehicle passenger transport.
Turns out that despite the incessant government meddling from ministers and civil servants without a clue about basic economics, it looks like they are correct, and have judged the current and future markets to perfection. So hats off to Toyota!
Its not hard to grasp, we get tons of energy hit us in the form of wind and sun every day, harness it and reduce dependence on other countries who are just piling up the money, and using it to buy stuff in the UK, property, football teams etc.
Look around you, two point one million plus pure EVs running, in part on renewable electricity from "Windmills" (its not a windmill, its a wind turbine, it doesnt get used to make flour, there is no milling aspect)
Hydrogen has a place in the energy mix but it isnt running cars, hence why there are 265 Hydrogen vehicles registered which includes trials for Hydrogen buses and trucks, 144 passengers cars, mainly the Toyota Mirai and a few Hyundai Nexos, about half of those 144 are SORNed so not in use. Its difficult where you can count the pumps you can actually fuel them on your hands, its the only fuel type you can form a club for and know every single other driver by name. Most are with local councils, universities etc, cant imagine anyone has one privately in daily use.
It will find a use and Hydrogen will be produced as a byproduct of excess renewable generation but it wont be used in passenger cars, it will be for industrial processes to burn, heavy goods vehicles, buses and trains and as a sort of battery for the grid, use excess energy generation to create hydrogen and then burn it to create electricity during slack periods
But cars, nope, would need a massive infrastructure implementing to move Hydrogen round, its so much more effcient to just put it into batteries, and as batteries improve the equation gets stacked more and more against it.
You miss the point, yes its energy dense but you need a massive foot thick tank as it tends to escape and is very prone to going boom if it gets out, so the energy density looks pretty poor when you take the storage into consideration, and its really expensive, if you could buy any.
Dysonfury said:
If we continue to insist on hobbling our economy with the highest electricity prices in the world thanks to our over-dependence on taxpayer subsidy-gobbling, unpredictable and intermittent windmills, then at least the spare electricity can be put to good use by powering electrolysis to produce hydrogen.
Hydrogen has the highest energy density by weight of any common fuel, and is nearly three times the energy density of traditional fossil fuels. Electrolysis of hydrogen would also help to solve grid congestion and prevents operators from having to curtail, or switch off their turbines when supply exceeds demand, and of course hydrogen is a good way to store energy.
Unlike the European manufacturers who put all their eggs in the EV basket, and are now as a result in very bad financial shape, laying off staff and taking a hit from cheap Chinese EV s, Toyota seem to be going from strength to strength at the moment. They have predicted that EV s will only ever be appropriate for use in around 30% of global vehicle passenger transport.
Turns out that despite the incessant government meddling from ministers and civil servants without a clue about basic economics, it looks like they are correct, and have judged the current and future markets to perfection. So hats off to Toyota!
For a first ever post on Pistonhead, this is far to correct and analytical, and makes far too many good points. Hydrogen has the highest energy density by weight of any common fuel, and is nearly three times the energy density of traditional fossil fuels. Electrolysis of hydrogen would also help to solve grid congestion and prevents operators from having to curtail, or switch off their turbines when supply exceeds demand, and of course hydrogen is a good way to store energy.
Unlike the European manufacturers who put all their eggs in the EV basket, and are now as a result in very bad financial shape, laying off staff and taking a hit from cheap Chinese EV s, Toyota seem to be going from strength to strength at the moment. They have predicted that EV s will only ever be appropriate for use in around 30% of global vehicle passenger transport.
Turns out that despite the incessant government meddling from ministers and civil servants without a clue about basic economics, it looks like they are correct, and have judged the current and future markets to perfection. So hats off to Toyota!
Can I suggest Science Forums or something of that ilk instead?
Jte3397 said:
Interesting. I wonder if this could be a potential demonstrator for military sales. If a military customer was interested in EV for reliability reasons, this could be a potential solution for being away from power sources. Obviously comes with the disadvantage of storing a large amount of explosive gas when you're under fire... it'll never be a viable civilian road transport solution though.
I'm pretty sure petrol is quite explosive when you're under fire. 
SDK said:
Dysonfury said:
Hydrogen has the highest energy density by weight of any common fuel, and is nearly three times the energy density of traditional fossil fuels.
Correct......but, (and it's a big one !)Because it is the lightest element in the universe, it takes up a massive amount of space. To store enough hydrogen to be useful, it must be compressed to extreme pressures, like 700 bar/10,000 PSI, or liquefied at cryogenic temperatures of -300c
So, not so great as you made out
Is this not just a scale model of something bigger? If hydrogen isn't much use for the road network, is it any use in the industrial sector where things perhaps don't move off site but need to run 24/7, or massive ships where storage is less of a problem and the current emissions are ridiculous?
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