Sale of Goods Act - buying a used car from a small trader
Discussion
OK, I have searched around for this I couldn't find a definitive answer.
I'm looking at buying a second hand car from a trader (not a main dealer or franchise) - a small business with formal premises and a number of cars for sale, credit card facilities, etc - not a massive operation, but not a one man and 2 cars operation.
I'm looking at a 10yr old, ~3k car. Make and model irrelevant. Whilst I'm not expecting it to be perfect, nor do I expect it to blow up or die on exiting the showroom...
What is the legal position on the warranty when a small business sells to a member of the public?
Sale of Goods act applies, no question, but can a trader limit the liability? 3 months? 6 months? fair wear and tear?
In reality, what am I entitled to? and is there a standard reference for what would be in/out of scope of a warranty by law?
Cheers
plg
I'm looking at buying a second hand car from a trader (not a main dealer or franchise) - a small business with formal premises and a number of cars for sale, credit card facilities, etc - not a massive operation, but not a one man and 2 cars operation.
I'm looking at a 10yr old, ~3k car. Make and model irrelevant. Whilst I'm not expecting it to be perfect, nor do I expect it to blow up or die on exiting the showroom...
What is the legal position on the warranty when a small business sells to a member of the public?
Sale of Goods act applies, no question, but can a trader limit the liability? 3 months? 6 months? fair wear and tear?
In reality, what am I entitled to? and is there a standard reference for what would be in/out of scope of a warranty by law?
Cheers
plg
There are guidelines and regs, but its not cut and dry.
If you don't want to risk it, don't buy it - simple!
But what else can you do, you have no protection if you buy private.
In most cases if you don't take the piss most traders will be fairly decent. If you buy a car and 2 days later the engine blows then yes I'd expect either money back, help to either replace the engine, such as they pay for the labour you pay for the parts. Or offer to replace the engine for you.
Courts are expensive and messy and there's no guarantee on the outcome.
£3k for a 10 year old car is not big money, one should expect to have to maintain a car over a 12 month period. So consumables like brakes and clutch are far less likely to be covered or enforced in a court of law. Major faults like engines and gearboxes are a slightly different matter, but its always about proving it was at fault when you bought it.
If you had a water hose burst but did nothing about and carried on drving then cooking the engine. It would not be the traders fault, you could have stopped before damage was caused.
If you don't want to risk it, don't buy it - simple!
But what else can you do, you have no protection if you buy private.
In most cases if you don't take the piss most traders will be fairly decent. If you buy a car and 2 days later the engine blows then yes I'd expect either money back, help to either replace the engine, such as they pay for the labour you pay for the parts. Or offer to replace the engine for you.
Courts are expensive and messy and there's no guarantee on the outcome.
£3k for a 10 year old car is not big money, one should expect to have to maintain a car over a 12 month period. So consumables like brakes and clutch are far less likely to be covered or enforced in a court of law. Major faults like engines and gearboxes are a slightly different matter, but its always about proving it was at fault when you bought it.
If you had a water hose burst but did nothing about and carried on drving then cooking the engine. It would not be the traders fault, you could have stopped before damage was caused.
300bhp/ton said:
There are guidelines and regs, but its not cut and dry.
If you don't want to risk it, don't buy it - simple!
But what else can you do, you have no protection if you buy private.
In most cases if you don't take the piss most traders will be fairly decent. If you buy a car and 2 days later the engine blows then yes I'd expect either money back, help to either replace the engine, such as they pay for the labour you pay for the parts. Or offer to replace the engine for you.
Courts are expensive and messy and there's no guarantee on the outcome.
£3k for a 10 year old car is not big money, one should expect to have to maintain a car over a 12 month period. So consumables like brakes and clutch are far less likely to be covered or enforced in a court of law. Major faults like engines and gearboxes are a slightly different matter, but its always about proving it was at fault when you bought it.
If you had a water hose burst but did nothing about and carried on drving then cooking the engine. It would not be the traders fault, you could have stopped before damage was caused.
Sounds like a reasonable take on life. Thanks for the feedback.If you don't want to risk it, don't buy it - simple!
But what else can you do, you have no protection if you buy private.
In most cases if you don't take the piss most traders will be fairly decent. If you buy a car and 2 days later the engine blows then yes I'd expect either money back, help to either replace the engine, such as they pay for the labour you pay for the parts. Or offer to replace the engine for you.
Courts are expensive and messy and there's no guarantee on the outcome.
£3k for a 10 year old car is not big money, one should expect to have to maintain a car over a 12 month period. So consumables like brakes and clutch are far less likely to be covered or enforced in a court of law. Major faults like engines and gearboxes are a slightly different matter, but its always about proving it was at fault when you bought it.
If you had a water hose burst but did nothing about and carried on drving then cooking the engine. It would not be the traders fault, you could have stopped before damage was caused.
plg101 said:
300bhp/ton said:
There are guidelines and regs, but its not cut and dry.
If you don't want to risk it, don't buy it - simple!
But what else can you do, you have no protection if you buy private.
In most cases if you don't take the piss most traders will be fairly decent. If you buy a car and 2 days later the engine blows then yes I'd expect either money back, help to either replace the engine, such as they pay for the labour you pay for the parts. Or offer to replace the engine for you.
Courts are expensive and messy and there's no guarantee on the outcome.
£3k for a 10 year old car is not big money, one should expect to have to maintain a car over a 12 month period. So consumables like brakes and clutch are far less likely to be covered or enforced in a court of law. Major faults like engines and gearboxes are a slightly different matter, but its always about proving it was at fault when you bought it.
If you had a water hose burst but did nothing about and carried on drving then cooking the engine. It would not be the traders fault, you could have stopped before damage was caused.
Sounds like a reasonable take on life. Thanks for the feedback.If you don't want to risk it, don't buy it - simple!
But what else can you do, you have no protection if you buy private.
In most cases if you don't take the piss most traders will be fairly decent. If you buy a car and 2 days later the engine blows then yes I'd expect either money back, help to either replace the engine, such as they pay for the labour you pay for the parts. Or offer to replace the engine for you.
Courts are expensive and messy and there's no guarantee on the outcome.
£3k for a 10 year old car is not big money, one should expect to have to maintain a car over a 12 month period. So consumables like brakes and clutch are far less likely to be covered or enforced in a court of law. Major faults like engines and gearboxes are a slightly different matter, but its always about proving it was at fault when you bought it.
If you had a water hose burst but did nothing about and carried on drving then cooking the engine. It would not be the traders fault, you could have stopped before damage was caused.
On other occasions we replaced whole engines at no cost to the customer and even leant them a car while the work was being done.
If you pay for an AA or RAC inspection and they dont find anything wrong with the car but it turns out to be a lemon, are there any guarantee with them? I.E. can you sue the AA/RAC?
It may be an idea to go down this route as the results of the inspection will at least tell you what will need fixing or repairing in the first few months of the cars life.
It may be an idea to go down this route as the results of the inspection will at least tell you what will need fixing or repairing in the first few months of the cars life.
"Courts are expensive and messy and there's no guarantee on the outcome."
Too right...
Yes sale of goods applies. However, you don't want to have to use it, as it will take ages and be a lot of hastle.
If the vehicle develops a fault within the first six months it is assumed it was thier when purchased, and upto the seller to prove overwise. After that, it's upto the buyer to prove it was there at the point of purchase. The seller may also fight that it was an inherrent fault in the design of the vehicle.
Wether you win or not is usually down to the definition of "reasonable" ie what a normal person would define as a "reasonable" amount of time before something breaks or what can be reasonably expected from the car. Hence it's a grey area. When they offer a 6-month warranty they are basically covering thier own liabilities not yours, and hoping you'll just use that.
I had an issue last year with a used car - needed £7-10k of work (yeah I know, I bought a duffer...) it took a hell of a lot of hastle, 14mths, threats of counter claims, dodging things left right and centre, pretending to be on the board of trading standards (they loved that!) etc. He even said he "had someone watching me". And this from a prestige car dealer in a sleepy village. I did win in the end and get most of my moeny back, put have a lot more grey hair thanks to it.
Too right...
Yes sale of goods applies. However, you don't want to have to use it, as it will take ages and be a lot of hastle.
If the vehicle develops a fault within the first six months it is assumed it was thier when purchased, and upto the seller to prove overwise. After that, it's upto the buyer to prove it was there at the point of purchase. The seller may also fight that it was an inherrent fault in the design of the vehicle.
Wether you win or not is usually down to the definition of "reasonable" ie what a normal person would define as a "reasonable" amount of time before something breaks or what can be reasonably expected from the car. Hence it's a grey area. When they offer a 6-month warranty they are basically covering thier own liabilities not yours, and hoping you'll just use that.
I had an issue last year with a used car - needed £7-10k of work (yeah I know, I bought a duffer...) it took a hell of a lot of hastle, 14mths, threats of counter claims, dodging things left right and centre, pretending to be on the board of trading standards (they loved that!) etc. He even said he "had someone watching me". And this from a prestige car dealer in a sleepy village. I did win in the end and get most of my moeny back, put have a lot more grey hair thanks to it.
For any dealer to comply with the "sale of goods" act regarding car sales, the important part is "that the vehicle should be fit for purpose". In reality this means that if the dealer sells the car and a fault is found it is up to the dealer to prove that the car was fit for sale for the 1st 6 months, after that it is down to the buyer to prove fault.
Phone your local council ask if trading standards are aware of the guy. Make sure the car comes with a minimum of 6 months mot. Ask him to warranty the car at his cost. Not all dealers are bad people, many of the big boys started off small.
Phone your local council ask if trading standards are aware of the guy. Make sure the car comes with a minimum of 6 months mot. Ask him to warranty the car at his cost. Not all dealers are bad people, many of the big boys started off small.
plg101 said:
What is the legal position on the warranty when a small business sells to a member of the public?
Sale of Goods act applies, no question, but can a trader limit the liability? 3 months? 6 months? fair wear and tear?
In reality, what am I entitled to? and is there a standard reference for what would be in/out of scope of a warranty by law?
Cheers
plg
Any fault will, within the first six months, be presumed to have existed at the time of sale. Bear in mind here the key word is fault. Wear and tear will not count. And presumed, it is not guaranteed that the court will deem it so, BUT the burden of proof falls to the vendor and that makes it a challenge for them to prove something didn't exist at the material time. Sale of Goods act applies, no question, but can a trader limit the liability? 3 months? 6 months? fair wear and tear?
In reality, what am I entitled to? and is there a standard reference for what would be in/out of scope of a warranty by law?
Cheers
plg
Make sure it is trade and there is some identification that this is a trade sale as well. I've seen smaller traders claim they are not traders when it comes to selling and cars are sold as seen........
cniv2001 said:
I bought a car for £2000 (05 plate) from a dealer and less than 24 hours later the timing belt snapped and the dealer is asking me to pay £700 to fix it.
How can i get the dealer to pay for repairs or refund me? What options do i have?
What's the car, mileage, was it serviced, etc?How can i get the dealer to pay for repairs or refund me? What options do i have?
james_tigerwoods said:
cniv2001 said:
I bought a car for £2000 (05 plate) from a dealer and less than 24 hours later the timing belt snapped and the dealer is asking me to pay £700 to fix it.
How can i get the dealer to pay for repairs or refund me? What options do i have?
What's the car, mileage, was it serviced, etc?How can i get the dealer to pay for repairs or refund me? What options do i have?
plg said:
james_tigerwoods said:
cniv2001 said:
I bought a car for £2000 (05 plate) from a dealer and less than 24 hours later the timing belt snapped and the dealer is asking me to pay £700 to fix it.
How can i get the dealer to pay for repairs or refund me? What options do i have?
What's the car, mileage, was it serviced, etc?How can i get the dealer to pay for repairs or refund me? What options do i have?
Fox- said:
plg said:
james_tigerwoods said:
cniv2001 said:
I bought a car for £2000 (05 plate) from a dealer and less than 24 hours later the timing belt snapped and the dealer is asking me to pay £700 to fix it.
How can i get the dealer to pay for repairs or refund me? What options do i have?
What's the car, mileage, was it serviced, etc?How can i get the dealer to pay for repairs or refund me? What options do i have?
Tell him to fix it, or money back.
Simple.
I'd be astonished if a judge was not on your side on this one. (depending on circumstances we may not be aware of, obviously)
Fox- said:
plg said:
james_tigerwoods said:
cniv2001 said:
I bought a car for £2000 (05 plate) from a dealer and less than 24 hours later the timing belt snapped and the dealer is asking me to pay £700 to fix it.
How can i get the dealer to pay for repairs or refund me? What options do i have?
What's the car, mileage, was it serviced, etc?How can i get the dealer to pay for repairs or refund me? What options do i have?
clarkey said:
Not necessarily - if the dealer sold it on the understanding that it was due a service, and that service included a timing belt change, I'd not be so hopeful. Don't know the facts, but there are circumstances that can make it unclear.
Nope. Have you ever seen the phrase 'Your statutory rights are not affected'? A seller cannot take these away.Poster should contact local Trading Standards.
clarkey said:
Not necessarily - if the dealer sold it on the understanding that it was due a service, and that service included a timing belt change, I'd not be so hopeful. Don't know the facts, but there are circumstances that can make it unclear.
Why do people post such stuff when all they have to do is read the SOGA and understand their rights. clarkey said:
Not necessarily - if the dealer sold it on the understanding that it was due a service, and that service included a timing belt change, I'd not be so hopeful. Don't know the facts, but there are circumstances that can make it unclear.
If it was due one in 5,000 miles, maybe......but next day?
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