What defines a hot hatch, to you?
Discussion
I'm curious to get the view of a wider audience on a subject being discussed somewhere else.
It seems many people these days consider the likes of the Focus ST, Astra VXR etc. the benchmark, and thus older, less powerful "hot hatches" such as the 106 GTi etc. are no longer considered "hot".
I believe power output is pretty low on the criteria for a hot hatch, with handling, chuckability, but most importantly fun factor all being far more important.
So do you consider the likes of 106 GTi, Fiesta ST etc. a "hot hatch" by definition?
It seems many people these days consider the likes of the Focus ST, Astra VXR etc. the benchmark, and thus older, less powerful "hot hatches" such as the 106 GTi etc. are no longer considered "hot".
I believe power output is pretty low on the criteria for a hot hatch, with handling, chuckability, but most importantly fun factor all being far more important.
So do you consider the likes of 106 GTi, Fiesta ST etc. a "hot hatch" by definition?
I'd go so far as to say that the likes of the Focus RS, Astra VXR etc aren't hot hatches, but rather sports GTs in hatch-cum-coupe clothing. They're more reminiscent of the Lancia Beta HPE VX than the original Golf GTI.
It's interesting how people complain that cars are getting so bloated when in reality the models have moved up a size but another has taken it's place beneath it. The Golf GTI seems more like the VW Corrado to me, so as a result the Polo GTI is closer in spirit ot the original Golf GTI - lighter, nippier, more compact.
Same goes for the Astra VXR - that's more like a Calibra successor. The Corsa VXR is more like the old Astra GTE. And the Focus RS - Capri? And the Fiesta ST is closer in spirit to the XR3, because the Ka has taken the old Fiesta's place.
It's interesting how people complain that cars are getting so bloated when in reality the models have moved up a size but another has taken it's place beneath it. The Golf GTI seems more like the VW Corrado to me, so as a result the Polo GTI is closer in spirit ot the original Golf GTI - lighter, nippier, more compact.
Same goes for the Astra VXR - that's more like a Calibra successor. The Corsa VXR is more like the old Astra GTE. And the Focus RS - Capri? And the Fiesta ST is closer in spirit to the XR3, because the Ka has taken the old Fiesta's place.
The Focus ST and RS are Hot-Hatches today.
The Saxo VTS was a few years ago (well, warm anyway, there's ALWAYS been a pecking order).
The Golf GTi mk1 was once.
The power level and performance changes, but the ethos remain the same - It's any shopping trolley with stiffened suspension, beefier brakes and engine and hopefully a tasteless bodykit (which in a few years time will be replaced with even more tasteless aftermarket bodykits by yoofs!).
Saying a car is no longer a hot hatch because newer cars are faster like saying a Calibra isn't a Coupe because the latest Audis and Peugeots have less space or an Aston DB5 is a tractor because it had drum brakes on the back!
M.
The Saxo VTS was a few years ago (well, warm anyway, there's ALWAYS been a pecking order).
The Golf GTi mk1 was once.
The power level and performance changes, but the ethos remain the same - It's any shopping trolley with stiffened suspension, beefier brakes and engine and hopefully a tasteless bodykit (which in a few years time will be replaced with even more tasteless aftermarket bodykits by yoofs!).
Saying a car is no longer a hot hatch because newer cars are faster like saying a Calibra isn't a Coupe because the latest Audis and Peugeots have less space or an Aston DB5 is a tractor because it had drum brakes on the back!
M.
Edited by marcosgt on Tuesday 14th December 14:06
Twincam16 said:
The Golf GTI seems more like the VW Corrado to me, so as a result the Polo GTI is closer in spirit ot the original Golf GTI - lighter, nippier, more compact.
I agree with the majority of what you are saying except this. The corrado is no way the same as a golf, it wasn always intended to be a coupe not a hatch regardless if the boot/glass operate much like a hatchback.The Lupo GTI from 2002 era has nearly the same power/weight and dimensions of a mk1 golf.
To me a hot hatch is in plain simple terms a relatively small hatchback that people would normally expect to find eg a 1.4L engine in but with a shoehorned 2.0 or similar in it giving it the performance of cars above its leaque.
Hence mk1 golf 1.6, 112hp sub 9s to 60 when the majority of people were driving around in Austins with 998cc motors that took a month to get to 60.
dave
Its got to be fun to drive, with chuckable handling, good steering, enough power to be fun but light enough to be agile; the sort car you can jump in it never having driven it before and drive the wheels off it knowing exactly what will happen next.
Should also be based on a run of the mill hatch, with just enough upgrades to make it look a bit sporting.
The newer ones that are big and heavy (but powerfull hence fast) dont really do it for me, I liked my Golf GTi T Fsi DSG but when I think of a hot hatch I dont think of that car, I think of my Clio Williams, 205 Gti, Golf Mk2 Gti, newer ones I've had being 106 Gti/Saxo VTS, Lupo GTi, they feel like hot hatches. Big heavy turbo charged refined modern day super hot hatches dont have that same feeling.
Should also be based on a run of the mill hatch, with just enough upgrades to make it look a bit sporting.
The newer ones that are big and heavy (but powerfull hence fast) dont really do it for me, I liked my Golf GTi T Fsi DSG but when I think of a hot hatch I dont think of that car, I think of my Clio Williams, 205 Gti, Golf Mk2 Gti, newer ones I've had being 106 Gti/Saxo VTS, Lupo GTi, they feel like hot hatches. Big heavy turbo charged refined modern day super hot hatches dont have that same feeling.
Edited by rallycross on Tuesday 14th December 14:38
Edited by rallycross on Tuesday 14th December 14:39
mikehiow said:
I'm curious to get the view of a wider audience on a subject being discussed somewhere else.
It seems many people these days consider the likes of the Focus ST, Astra VXR etc. the benchmark, and thus older, less powerful "hot hatches" such as the 106 GTi etc. are no longer considered "hot".
I believe power output is pretty low on the criteria for a hot hatch, with handling, chuckability, but most importantly fun factor all being far more important.
So do you consider the likes of 106 GTi, Fiesta ST etc. a "hot hatch" by definition?
A fun and/or interesting version of an otherwise boring and dull 3/5 door shopping cart.It seems many people these days consider the likes of the Focus ST, Astra VXR etc. the benchmark, and thus older, less powerful "hot hatches" such as the 106 GTi etc. are no longer considered "hot".
I believe power output is pretty low on the criteria for a hot hatch, with handling, chuckability, but most importantly fun factor all being far more important.
So do you consider the likes of 106 GTi, Fiesta ST etc. a "hot hatch" by definition?
Anyone who doen't think a 106GTI is a hot hatch is just an idiot.
Above all else it should be fun. Unless you drive in convoy with your mates and regularly race one another the ultimate performance doesn't matter. It's useful for willy waving and is certainly fun when you get an empty stretch of straight road, but the main criteria is being able to drive along a descent road at a non-licence-losing speed and have fun. It's unfortunate that in the same way that supercar manufacturers have become fixated on 'Ring times, hot hatch manufacturers have got themselves into a BHP competition and have forgotten the 'fun' requirement.
Funny, I was thinking about this the other day. Yes by definition the ST is a hot hatch. Anything that is fast with a hatchback i suppose is.
But a true Hot hatch needs to be based on a standard production everyday eco box. It should be a little bit daft but make perfect sense in the REAL world. It should be fun, a bit naughty, and should have a slightly agressive image.
I can never see myself driving anything other than a hot hatch. They are, or should be great at everything.
But a true Hot hatch needs to be based on a standard production everyday eco box. It should be a little bit daft but make perfect sense in the REAL world. It should be fun, a bit naughty, and should have a slightly agressive image.
I can never see myself driving anything other than a hot hatch. They are, or should be great at everything.
rufusgti said:
Funny, I was thinking about this the other day. Yes by definition the ST is a hot hatch. Anything that is fast with a hatchback i suppose is.
But a true Hot hatch needs to be based on a standard production everyday eco box. It should be a little bit daft but make perfect sense in the REAL world. It should be fun, a bit naughty, and should have a slightly agressive image.
I can never see myself driving anything other than a hot hatch. They are, or should be great at everything.
I wonder how old you are?But a true Hot hatch needs to be based on a standard production everyday eco box. It should be a little bit daft but make perfect sense in the REAL world. It should be fun, a bit naughty, and should have a slightly agressive image.
I can never see myself driving anything other than a hot hatch. They are, or should be great at everything.
I only ask because, only a few days ago, I was thinking I can't imagine driving a hot hatch again, but I'm getting on a bit now
M.
Edited by marcosgt on Tuesday 14th December 16:01
SonicHedgeHog said:
300bhp/ton said:
S3K04 said:
1M, RS3, Focus RS, Megane
these are just evolutions of hot hatches with fun. comfort and affordable power in one package
yeah, they are all small, lightwieght and really cheap..... these are just evolutions of hot hatches with fun. comfort and affordable power in one package
For me the hot hatch should be aimed at younger markets, cheap to insure, cheap to run, cheap to fix, fun and chuckable and Light! What they'd class as a warm hatch or supermini hot versions are closer to what I'd say is a Hot hatch. Your 200+bhp 1.5ton overweight machines are more your reminisance for hot hatch for when you're 30 old and overweight and have some dosh.
300bhp/ton said:
S3K04 said:
1M, RS3, Focus RS, Megane
these are just evolutions of hot hatches with fun. comfort and affordable power in one package
yeah, they are all small, lightwieght and really cheap..... these are just evolutions of hot hatches with fun. comfort and affordable power in one package
The concept of what constitutes a hot hatch has evolved. Irrespective of views of what the first true 'hot hatch' was (Golf, Alfasud, Renault 5 Alpine etc), to me the last 'old school' hot hatch was the Clio 172 Cup in 2003. Since then we have seen a steady increase in weight/addition of Turbo Chargers etc, so whilst I would still consider more recent cars ( Focus ST being the prime example) to be hot hatches (in terms of what defines a hot hatch) you can actually create a number of hot hatch catergories.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff