If we still had Group-B, how fast would they be now?
Discussion
Anyone got any thoughts or ideas?
How do current WRC cars compare to the Group-B cars on the same stages?
How much more performance would modern technology be able to extract keeping within Group B regs?
What where the regs, for that matter?
I'm sure I've heard people drawing favourable comparisons with the Group B Quattros and F1 cars of the same era. How would they stack up today?
How do current WRC cars compare to the Group-B cars on the same stages?
How much more performance would modern technology be able to extract keeping within Group B regs?
What where the regs, for that matter?
I'm sure I've heard people drawing favourable comparisons with the Group B Quattros and F1 cars of the same era. How would they stack up today?
busta said:
Anyone got any thoughts or ideas?
How do current WRC cars compare to the Group-B cars on the same stages?
How much more performance would modern technology be able to extract keeping within Group B regs?
What where the regs, for that matter?
I'm sure I've heard people drawing favourable comparisons with the Group B Quattros and F1 cars of the same era. How would they stack up today?
i've often thought this aswell How do current WRC cars compare to the Group-B cars on the same stages?
How much more performance would modern technology be able to extract keeping within Group B regs?
What where the regs, for that matter?
I'm sure I've heard people drawing favourable comparisons with the Group B Quattros and F1 cars of the same era. How would they stack up today?
, they had much higher bhp that the 2010 wrc cars.And now it's going to move a step backwards again, with almost super 2000 rules.
Much less technically advanced, just so to get manufacturers /teams to take part.
i know next to nothing
Edited by Or888t on Monday 17th January 23:52
If it hadn't been banned, it definitely wouldn't exist today.
It would have been replaced with Group S (essentially the same rules, except they would only have to build one road car) which would then have been replaced with something cheaper five or so years down the line when costs spiralled out of control.
A Group S car would have been similar in power to a Pikes Peak car, but smaller so it can fit on none American roads.
It would have been replaced with Group S (essentially the same rules, except they would only have to build one road car) which would then have been replaced with something cheaper five or so years down the line when costs spiralled out of control.
A Group S car would have been similar in power to a Pikes Peak car, but smaller so it can fit on none American roads.
busta said:
Watching the first part of 'Still too fast to race' on youtube has revealed modern WRC cars are getting better times than Group B cars did, but that's 25 years on. Will watch the rest tomorrow night.
I gurantee you Group B cars were faster and much harder to handle, the modern cars are as quick because of other technology as well, light weight materials, engine (no big engines all small ones), traction, suspension etc etc.I read once that a fastest lap in a Group B car on a F1 track in one particular year would have put it sixth on the grid.
Everyone who has driven a Group B car has said that they were beasts.
IIRC that was the Peugeot at Estoril.
http://forums.autosport.com/lofiversion/index.php/...
Here's a good thread on it.
In terms of how fast they could be going now, the Pikes Peak monsters are probably a fairly good guide.
http://forums.autosport.com/lofiversion/index.php/...
Here's a good thread on it.
In terms of how fast they could be going now, the Pikes Peak monsters are probably a fairly good guide.
IIRC the highest category in Group B rallying was a 3litre N/A engine, or a 2litre forced induction engine, with no limits on engine modifications. They were only restricted by engine size and weight (and wheel size?)
If you look at some modern hillclimb cars, they produce a stupidly high amount of power from a relatively small forced induction engine. The Suzuki Escudo hillclimb car for example, produced just under 1000bhp from a 2.7litre turbo engine, and that was around 10 years ago. I think that shows how much power a Group B car would produce today with unrestricted modifications and modern turbo technology etc. If a modern Group B car were to use a supercharger aswell as a turbocharger, like the Delta S4, there'd be alot more useable power than a hillclimb car too.
Combine that sort of power with modern suspension and aerodynamics used in the WRC, and you'd have an insanely fast car. Compare that sort of power with a 300bhp WRC car of today, and I think you can be pretty sure that a modern Group B car would be much faster, but probably a lot harder to drive too.
ETA- Bring back Group B!
If you look at some modern hillclimb cars, they produce a stupidly high amount of power from a relatively small forced induction engine. The Suzuki Escudo hillclimb car for example, produced just under 1000bhp from a 2.7litre turbo engine, and that was around 10 years ago. I think that shows how much power a Group B car would produce today with unrestricted modifications and modern turbo technology etc. If a modern Group B car were to use a supercharger aswell as a turbocharger, like the Delta S4, there'd be alot more useable power than a hillclimb car too.
Combine that sort of power with modern suspension and aerodynamics used in the WRC, and you'd have an insanely fast car. Compare that sort of power with a 300bhp WRC car of today, and I think you can be pretty sure that a modern Group B car would be much faster, but probably a lot harder to drive too.
ETA- Bring back Group B!
Edited by Egg Chaser on Tuesday 18th January 02:33
Harji said:
I read once that a fastest lap in a Group B car on a F1 track in one particular year would have put it sixth on the grid.
The claim crops up all over the place, but it is seems to be purely apocryphal. No one ever has any evidence or first hand accounts of it, only references to other websites which usually contain 'apparantly' somewhere in the text.I find it pretty hard to believe that in a head to head race under similar conditions a rally car would get anywhere near an F1 car.
I'm not sure how much faster they would get, or be today. After all, they were banned because people were getting killed, as they were too fast. They could no doubt be even faster today with over 20 years of development in every aspect of the car, but I think we'd reach the wall fairly soon, where drivers push them over the limit and end up crashing and dying. As has been mentioned, modern Hill Climb cars for things like Pikes Peak are probably as close as you can get to modern day group B cars, and what frightening machines they are!
Given that a standard factory Evo 8 road car is quicker round the TG test track than a full on Audi Quattro WRC, it's fair to say that by today's standards a GP B car isn't really all that fast.
With regards the F1vsGP B comparison...... A 600+ bhp derivative of a road car against the 1500bhp turbo F1's of the day running full slicks and big aero/ground effect........
no chance!
With regards the F1vsGP B comparison...... A 600+ bhp derivative of a road car against the 1500bhp turbo F1's of the day running full slicks and big aero/ground effect........
no chance!mrtwisty said:
As others have already mentioned, I have seen this 'group b car as fast as an f1 car around estoril/a track' a few times, and it never ceases to make me chuckle! As if?!
The story I remember was that the rally car finished a stage near to the circuit that was comparable to the length of estoril and its time would have put it high up the grid. Must have been going some if it is true.
Unfortunately I think they got as far as they could back then really - there's only so many mangled drivers the viewing public can tolerate, let alone spectators. The limitless development budgets would have come to an end as well, pity, but that's reality I guess. Merely my point of view of course.
Spectacular, awe inspiring, spine tingling.... hell yes, flames, gravel, barrp barrp whoosh barrp barrp through the forest, little comes close.
The Pikes Peak cars are probably an indication of what we'd have now, although they're still not born of an unlimited budget from a mainstream manufacturer.
I think the new WRC rules will allow more manufacturers into it... cheaper entry, less spectacular, well, maybe, can't say I've concentrated on what the major changes are going to be. More manufacturers adds more competition, get the TV coverage right and get the support and sponsorship there and all of a sudden budgets increase and it gets more interesting....
Watching the Lombard RAC Rally on the TV when I was 7yrs old, being allowed to stay up late and see Quattros, 6R4s and the like blatting through Kielder - sticks in your mind a touch. As does going through your old toys (with your 18mth of son) and finding the 1/10th scale battery powered Quattro model you played with at the time, complete with dried out leaked C-Cell batteries and 25yr old dried mud on it!
Watching Michelle Mouton welly her Quattro up the hill at Goodwood FoS many years later...
- ok, they're fast... and the sound... I can still feel it making my eyeballs shake.
ETA - Wasn't the F1 thing Walter Rohrl on the Brands short circuit, cutting the corners (the rallycross route maybe?)? Well... whatever, a good marketing wheeze if nothing else, this rally car is as quick as an F1 car don't you know.... Err, yep, on a stage I'm sure it is.
Spectacular, awe inspiring, spine tingling.... hell yes, flames, gravel, barrp barrp whoosh barrp barrp through the forest, little comes close.
The Pikes Peak cars are probably an indication of what we'd have now, although they're still not born of an unlimited budget from a mainstream manufacturer.
I think the new WRC rules will allow more manufacturers into it... cheaper entry, less spectacular, well, maybe, can't say I've concentrated on what the major changes are going to be. More manufacturers adds more competition, get the TV coverage right and get the support and sponsorship there and all of a sudden budgets increase and it gets more interesting....
Watching the Lombard RAC Rally on the TV when I was 7yrs old, being allowed to stay up late and see Quattros, 6R4s and the like blatting through Kielder - sticks in your mind a touch. As does going through your old toys (with your 18mth of son) and finding the 1/10th scale battery powered Quattro model you played with at the time, complete with dried out leaked C-Cell batteries and 25yr old dried mud on it!
Watching Michelle Mouton welly her Quattro up the hill at Goodwood FoS many years later...
- ok, they're fast... and the sound... I can still feel it making my eyeballs shake.ETA - Wasn't the F1 thing Walter Rohrl on the Brands short circuit, cutting the corners (the rallycross route maybe?)? Well... whatever, a good marketing wheeze if nothing else, this rally car is as quick as an F1 car don't you know.... Err, yep, on a stage I'm sure it is.
Edited by SWH on Tuesday 18th January 09:11
Hitch78 said:
They should resurect it as current rallying is just to middle of the road to get anyone excited.
Some bonkers twin-turbo coupes should get it going.
Maybe, but if Loeb carried on winning 90% of the rallies it wouldn't really be much more exciting.Some bonkers twin-turbo coupes should get it going.
Group B rally cars were awesome (if a bit agricultural by modern standards), but it's not the cars that make circuit racing or rallying exciting.
Take a look at DTM - Some of the most technologically advanced racing cars in the world, probably the dullest racing...
M
I think changing the current rules to encourage a little more diversity would be a positive move. The cars wouldn't have to be faster necessarily, just more interesting, for example limit 4wd cars to 2.0 litres, 2wd allowed an additional 500cc and 5 or 6 cyl cars allowed an additional 500cc.
Some 5/6cyl F/R or mid engined 3 litre coupes would add some interest I'd have thought. You could even have a 'prototype' class limited to 1.4 litres and demanding a run of only 20 non production car based examples to add some spice.
Obviously the maximum capacities and tyre widths could be tweaked to ensure no one configuration became dominant or if speeds became too high.
Some 5/6cyl F/R or mid engined 3 litre coupes would add some interest I'd have thought. You could even have a 'prototype' class limited to 1.4 litres and demanding a run of only 20 non production car based examples to add some spice.
Obviously the maximum capacities and tyre widths could be tweaked to ensure no one configuration became dominant or if speeds became too high.
Edited by Roman on Tuesday 18th January 09:51
Whitean3 said:
I think the "6th on the F1 grid at Estoril" has partial truth; but I think it related to a rain soaked track for the F1 cars, and a dry track for the Gp B car. Not really comparing apples with apples, but it makes for a good story!
I think it was the 205 T16 E2 that was the car in question.... the name of the driver escapes me, but alas its not true either :-(Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff