The pursuit of 'perfection'
Discussion
I am in the early stages of researching my next car, I'm a good way off the actual purchase yet and don't know my exact budget as I don't know what my current car(s) will sell for, what it will cost to get them into A1 condition for selling, etc, etc, etc.
This is not a 'what car', I have other threads running for that.
It is however, an expression of exasperation (a mild rant if you prefer) at how every interesting car has something to be seriously worried about. Every single one.
It is really starting to damp my enthusiasm for a new car. I am even considering saying stuff-it and giving up my car hobby/addiction/fetish/obsession (delete as appropriate) and buying something boring, reliable and cheap to run. It is that bad.
Looking through PH and other marque specific forums for something interesting always turns up horror stories. Now I am fully aware that people only usually post when there is something bad to post about, so problems look more common than they actually are, but these are not one-off problems, so that means you have at least a reasonable % chance that you will be affected by the issue.
I am no stranger to high running costs, the current fleet comprises a Cerbera and an E39 530i touring, neither are cheap, but it seems that more modern cars of not even comparable performance have potentially even larger bills waiting to pounce from the darkness. Why can't manufacturers get it right FFS? Why are newer cars plagued with these earth shattering repair costs for major component failures? Whatever happened to over-engineered cars that last a lifetime?
It's VANOS failure, or auto box failure, suspension replacement, poorly designed wiring looms, leaky radiators that contaminate the gearbox oil, astronomical clutch replacement costs - the list goes on and on and on. Lots these things on different cars can easily break the bank and / or write off the car in question. I should add I am not talking about supercars here, just top of the range or 'sporty' models of fairly bog standard 'quality' cars.
I do believe the well used adage of a car that was £50K new will still have £50K car running costs when it's second hand and up for sale at £10K, but keeping a couple of grand in the bank for a rainy day isn't enough these days, it needs to be £5-10K. There used to be a time when £50K cars were built to a standard that whilst servicing may be more expensive, major failures were unheard of (Merc from the 'golden era' anyone?)
I reckon I will have about £12K to spend on a car as the purchase price (not a fortune, but a reasonable amount of money to most), and I earn enough to be able to budget £3k or a bit more for maintenance (I spend a lot more than that on my current cars). I'm happy to spend a lot on fuel, and being 40 insurance isn't a problem either. Whilst I'm not director of a single company, or 'something big in the city', I earn a decent salary and I should be able to afford to run a nice car, but it seems I can't if I am going to be sure I can manage the potential bills that plenty will be waiting around the forums to say 'I told you so' about, or 'didn't you do your research?'.
Then there is the run a cheap diesel hack for day to day and keep another car for fun at the weekend option. A fine idea, similar to what I do now (though the cheap hack is a 5 series, so not cheap), but even now I find myself sitting in the 5 thinking 'I wish I was in my Cerbera'. If I have a nice car, I damn well want to drive it. How much worse would that feeling be if I was sat in a Renault 5 campus, or whatever the modern day equivalent is?
So this leads me to looking at much older cheaper cars that are essentially disposable, where they still have the potential for a serious wallet crushing failure, but the purchase price of the car is such that you just buy another car. Is this really the only way?
What does everybody else do? I'm not asking the super-rich guys here, (though I'd be interested in their take on £50k car running costs - do they find themselves forking out a fortune in keeping their expensive cars on the road?), I am more interested in the average PHer who runs a car on a budget.
Is it denial?
Is it the power of prayer to your god of choice?
Do you lot really have a fighting fund of £5K in the bank, and what happens when that is spent? I have learned that a fighting fund is fine, until it gets spent and the next thing goes wrong (Cerberas can do that to you).
Finally does anybody agree that car manufacturers are doing it deliberately? Built in failures to keep up the demand for new cars. Or is it just incompetence and poor design?
A pretty poor rant, but it made me feel a little better typing it.
This is not a 'what car', I have other threads running for that.
It is however, an expression of exasperation (a mild rant if you prefer) at how every interesting car has something to be seriously worried about. Every single one.
It is really starting to damp my enthusiasm for a new car. I am even considering saying stuff-it and giving up my car hobby/addiction/fetish/obsession (delete as appropriate) and buying something boring, reliable and cheap to run. It is that bad.
Looking through PH and other marque specific forums for something interesting always turns up horror stories. Now I am fully aware that people only usually post when there is something bad to post about, so problems look more common than they actually are, but these are not one-off problems, so that means you have at least a reasonable % chance that you will be affected by the issue.
I am no stranger to high running costs, the current fleet comprises a Cerbera and an E39 530i touring, neither are cheap, but it seems that more modern cars of not even comparable performance have potentially even larger bills waiting to pounce from the darkness. Why can't manufacturers get it right FFS? Why are newer cars plagued with these earth shattering repair costs for major component failures? Whatever happened to over-engineered cars that last a lifetime?
It's VANOS failure, or auto box failure, suspension replacement, poorly designed wiring looms, leaky radiators that contaminate the gearbox oil, astronomical clutch replacement costs - the list goes on and on and on. Lots these things on different cars can easily break the bank and / or write off the car in question. I should add I am not talking about supercars here, just top of the range or 'sporty' models of fairly bog standard 'quality' cars.
I do believe the well used adage of a car that was £50K new will still have £50K car running costs when it's second hand and up for sale at £10K, but keeping a couple of grand in the bank for a rainy day isn't enough these days, it needs to be £5-10K. There used to be a time when £50K cars were built to a standard that whilst servicing may be more expensive, major failures were unheard of (Merc from the 'golden era' anyone?)
I reckon I will have about £12K to spend on a car as the purchase price (not a fortune, but a reasonable amount of money to most), and I earn enough to be able to budget £3k or a bit more for maintenance (I spend a lot more than that on my current cars). I'm happy to spend a lot on fuel, and being 40 insurance isn't a problem either. Whilst I'm not director of a single company, or 'something big in the city', I earn a decent salary and I should be able to afford to run a nice car, but it seems I can't if I am going to be sure I can manage the potential bills that plenty will be waiting around the forums to say 'I told you so' about, or 'didn't you do your research?'.
Then there is the run a cheap diesel hack for day to day and keep another car for fun at the weekend option. A fine idea, similar to what I do now (though the cheap hack is a 5 series, so not cheap), but even now I find myself sitting in the 5 thinking 'I wish I was in my Cerbera'. If I have a nice car, I damn well want to drive it. How much worse would that feeling be if I was sat in a Renault 5 campus, or whatever the modern day equivalent is?
So this leads me to looking at much older cheaper cars that are essentially disposable, where they still have the potential for a serious wallet crushing failure, but the purchase price of the car is such that you just buy another car. Is this really the only way?
What does everybody else do? I'm not asking the super-rich guys here, (though I'd be interested in their take on £50k car running costs - do they find themselves forking out a fortune in keeping their expensive cars on the road?), I am more interested in the average PHer who runs a car on a budget.
Is it denial?
Is it the power of prayer to your god of choice?
Do you lot really have a fighting fund of £5K in the bank, and what happens when that is spent? I have learned that a fighting fund is fine, until it gets spent and the next thing goes wrong (Cerberas can do that to you).
Finally does anybody agree that car manufacturers are doing it deliberately? Built in failures to keep up the demand for new cars. Or is it just incompetence and poor design?
A pretty poor rant, but it made me feel a little better typing it.
skoff said:
Why can't manufacturers get it right FFS? Why are newer cars plagued with these earth shattering repair costs for major component failures? Whatever happened to over-engineered cars that last a lifetime?
My personal opinion is that there are a number of factors at work:1. Some of these faults result from the fact that we are in a transition phase. Things that were once analogue are being redesigned for the digital age. As far as cars are concerned, that transition is still in its infancy. People bemoan the fact that you can't work on these newfangled electronic systems when in fact what they really mean is they don't know how to work on them. That knowledge will come in time - it wouldn't surprise me if the Halfords of the future stocked software and data cables alongside spanners and screwdrivers.
2. Manufacturers are not charities and those that used to over-engineer their cars realised that they could make a poorer product that resulted in more failures and still come out ahead as a result of reduced costs. Think Porsche 993 vs. 996 or Mercedes of the late 80s vs those of the 90s.
3. The internet effect. As you pointed out, anecdotal evidence of problems is massively skewed by the fact that only those who experience the problems tend to comment. I've had several cars, which, if the internet was to be believed, would practically explode if you so much as touched them. In actual fact, I didn't experience any problems.
4. People seem to expect perfection - they will always be disappointed. Nothing has ever been any different. Cars of yesteryear were often appallingly unreliable too.
5. Interesting cars tend to be low-volume cars. Often there isn't the money to lavish millions on testing.
In terms of how to avoid spending a fortune, it's simple. Pick the model you want, research the common faults and buy a car that's had the faults rectified by the previous owner. Failing that, buy one that may fail at a price low enough to allow you to rectify the faults.
Edited by Risotto on Wednesday 20th April 14:53
I think you'll always disappointed unless you accept a degree of unreliability for the sake of something interesting to be honest. Unless you're buying new and spending a fortune I don't think there's anything that will be exciting, reliable and cheap - you can pick 2 at most. For me I'll always take exciting and cheap and fix it myself when it goes wrong but I drive things that are expected to go wrong anyway, TVR and classics.
£12k should get you into a Corvette C5 at a push, a mint Corvette C4 or alternatively a 4th gen Camaro/Trans Am for far less, all of which will paint a smile on your face.
Of course, in the case of the LS1 engined cars and the pre LT1 Corvette, you would need to put up with infinite reliability and keep £20 back for maintenance...though the older ones may well be autos - not a fatal thing in my experience.
If RHD is a priority, plenty of Monaros out there.
Of course, in the case of the LS1 engined cars and the pre LT1 Corvette, you would need to put up with infinite reliability and keep £20 back for maintenance...though the older ones may well be autos - not a fatal thing in my experience.
If RHD is a priority, plenty of Monaros out there.
Op- have you actually considered living in the real Wolrd?
Seriously! Nothing is perfect and highly complex machines with many moving parts that have been used and maintained by non experts then no body in their rift mind would expect them to be perfect.
It's well worth remembering that it's human nature to complain. So most Internet sources will tell you all the bad and very little of the good. How many times do you see someone post up and say:
"Bought new car, run it for 3 months and not a single fault. What did I do wrong?"
"Why has my car not broken down in 5 years of daily use?"
It doesnt happen! But people will happily post up when the first sign or a rattle appears on a 15 year old car as though they have somehow been cheated.
Be mindful, know what you are looking for. Drive the car. And chill
Seriously! Nothing is perfect and highly complex machines with many moving parts that have been used and maintained by non experts then no body in their rift mind would expect them to be perfect.
It's well worth remembering that it's human nature to complain. So most Internet sources will tell you all the bad and very little of the good. How many times do you see someone post up and say:
"Bought new car, run it for 3 months and not a single fault. What did I do wrong?"
"Why has my car not broken down in 5 years of daily use?"
It doesnt happen! But people will happily post up when the first sign or a rattle appears on a 15 year old car as though they have somehow been cheated.
Be mindful, know what you are looking for. Drive the car. And chill
I would say the internet cliche of expensive car, expensive running costs is total BS!
My last few cars have been originally sold for around £75k new, and I've paid as little as £2k for them. As new cars, the owners would have paid main dealer prices for servicing for a start, I don't, so that automatically saves 50-75% on servicing costs. Also when a car is 10 years old, parts are generally much cheaper, OEM parts are widely available, as are pattern parts, and secondhand parts.
Problems are often very easy to diagnose and fix due to enthusiast communities on t'interweb which can be extremely knowledgeable.
So on balance, I'd say you can run a 3-10 year old luxury car for less than a new boring car. The maintenance costs may be around the same as the depreciation on a newer car, maybe less.
I'm running my idea of perfection, a six year old Range Rover Supercharged, which has an LPG conversion. It's under warranty, and so far has cost me nothing, I'm also getting 30 mpg (15-16 on lpg, but at 69.9 instead of 135.9 pence per litre.
Any number of internet experts will rant on about how much you need to budget for maintenance, but I've had 8 E38 7 Series, and only had a bad experience on one, the engine developed a serious problem so I sold it for a £500 loss. On balance, through judicious buying of older cars I've made money, and effectively traded my way up to the Range Rover.
Perfection is a very personal thing, but I'd say identify what it means to you, and go for it, don't let reliability reports or reputation put you off, most of them are myths (like E38 nikasil problem which I've never encountered, even through the 7 series forum).
My last few cars have been originally sold for around £75k new, and I've paid as little as £2k for them. As new cars, the owners would have paid main dealer prices for servicing for a start, I don't, so that automatically saves 50-75% on servicing costs. Also when a car is 10 years old, parts are generally much cheaper, OEM parts are widely available, as are pattern parts, and secondhand parts.
Problems are often very easy to diagnose and fix due to enthusiast communities on t'interweb which can be extremely knowledgeable.
So on balance, I'd say you can run a 3-10 year old luxury car for less than a new boring car. The maintenance costs may be around the same as the depreciation on a newer car, maybe less.
I'm running my idea of perfection, a six year old Range Rover Supercharged, which has an LPG conversion. It's under warranty, and so far has cost me nothing, I'm also getting 30 mpg (15-16 on lpg, but at 69.9 instead of 135.9 pence per litre.
Any number of internet experts will rant on about how much you need to budget for maintenance, but I've had 8 E38 7 Series, and only had a bad experience on one, the engine developed a serious problem so I sold it for a £500 loss. On balance, through judicious buying of older cars I've made money, and effectively traded my way up to the Range Rover.
Perfection is a very personal thing, but I'd say identify what it means to you, and go for it, don't let reliability reports or reputation put you off, most of them are myths (like E38 nikasil problem which I've never encountered, even through the 7 series forum).
Unfortunately in this day and age, we the designers are forced to comprimise quality with expense. In every type of manufacture more and more stringent methods are being used to reduce cost and drive up profit margins. No matter how much you spend on a car you will always have areas were the cost has a big part to play and a less reliable method/component is used. In saying all this there are manufacturer's out there who do make 'quality' products but the majority of us will never be able to afford them.
Now when speaking about 2nd hand car market then i would agree with the above said 'buy one were the known faults have been fixed'
Now when speaking about 2nd hand car market then i would agree with the above said 'buy one were the known faults have been fixed'
I pretty much agree with the OP on the basis of giving up on the whole car obsession thing. I have good taste in cars but a phobia of spending money - not a good combination for the petrolhead.
With a budget never more than £2-3k i always end up looking at the Germans but simply scared of big bills (such as auto-box failure etc.) The only other cars i'm interested in are Alfas and those scare me too!
I know i could buy a sensible Ford/Vauxhall/Renault/Nissan etc. for the same money which would be newer, cheaper to run and more economical but there is no sense of occasion with those cars and no enthusiasm towards them...
With a budget never more than £2-3k i always end up looking at the Germans but simply scared of big bills (such as auto-box failure etc.) The only other cars i'm interested in are Alfas and those scare me too!
I know i could buy a sensible Ford/Vauxhall/Renault/Nissan etc. for the same money which would be newer, cheaper to run and more economical but there is no sense of occasion with those cars and no enthusiasm towards them...
toast boy said:
I think you'll always disappointed unless you accept a degree of unreliability for the sake of something interesting to be honest. Unless you're buying new and spending a fortune I don't think there's anything that will be exciting, reliable and cheap - you can pick 2 at most. For me I'll always take exciting and cheap and fix it myself when it goes wrong but I drive things that are expected to go wrong anyway, TVR and classics.
True enough, but there is 'a degree of unreliability' and then there is the 'real chance of a catastrophic failure'. The former I am fine with, in fact it keeps the riff raff non car lovers out of the hunt. I've lived that 'dream' for pretty much all of my car owning life.But, it seems that more and more modern cars that fall into the 'interesting' bracket (not even the poster on the wall fantasy bracket) now all have potential issues that make them just too risky to be considered.
If you work it out as
risk = likelihood x impact
Then modern(ish) stuff just doesn't add up. Whilst likelihood might be small, impact is so huge that it doesn't matter that a particular failure is relatively rare.
Maybe it's that at this price point, cars are too cheap to be bought by 'money no object' types, but too expensive to be written off if a major failure occurs so owners just suck it up.
I think Risotto has some very good points there about the transition to reliance on perceived complex electronics, and of course I agree with the fact that manufacturers are not charities.
It's sad for the average petrolhead though - pay more for a car to buy new and get a warranty, and it will depreciate; pay less and suck-up the big bills; or pay even less and treat the car as disposable.
Yep. If you expect a car to break, and do preventative maintenance, bar a catastrophic fatigue failure, there isn't much that will go wrong.
I plan on a TVR at some point in the future and I'm not worried at all.
I'd worry more owning a run of the mill Golf from new to be honest. Warranties don't guarantee a reliable car, and the return is that you get a reliably huge depreciation, and reliably annoying dealers who don't always manage to fix issues.
I've always owned older cars, always tinkered with them as much as is reasonably possible, bought data cables/software, fixed my own stuff where I can etc, and touch wood, I've had almost total reliability from all my cars. No massive failures at all, just little niggles.
When I bought my Peugeot 306 GTi6, £600 was sunk in the first month on preventative maintenance/common faults and checking over etc. £600 on my 306 HDi, about £400 on my Z4.
If you clue yourself up, then you are in a much better position. I think this was true on older cars that you fixed with screwdrivers and spanners too! My old Sierra had a UJ issue on the front prop. If you used a nipple greasing UJ replacement, and reconditioned them every 100k, then you would avoid the chance of a snapped UJ and smashed gearbox/bell housing/transfer box and a bad mechanical failure.
OK, maybe we shouldn't have to, but part of fun car ownership for me is knowing about my car, how it works, how to fix it, and making sure it runs like clockwork
That is probably why for me, the perfect car will be a TVR. It has everything it needs, and very little that it doesn't, making it probably very easy to understand and get to grips with
Dave
I plan on a TVR at some point in the future and I'm not worried at all.
I'd worry more owning a run of the mill Golf from new to be honest. Warranties don't guarantee a reliable car, and the return is that you get a reliably huge depreciation, and reliably annoying dealers who don't always manage to fix issues.
I've always owned older cars, always tinkered with them as much as is reasonably possible, bought data cables/software, fixed my own stuff where I can etc, and touch wood, I've had almost total reliability from all my cars. No massive failures at all, just little niggles.
When I bought my Peugeot 306 GTi6, £600 was sunk in the first month on preventative maintenance/common faults and checking over etc. £600 on my 306 HDi, about £400 on my Z4.
If you clue yourself up, then you are in a much better position. I think this was true on older cars that you fixed with screwdrivers and spanners too! My old Sierra had a UJ issue on the front prop. If you used a nipple greasing UJ replacement, and reconditioned them every 100k, then you would avoid the chance of a snapped UJ and smashed gearbox/bell housing/transfer box and a bad mechanical failure.
OK, maybe we shouldn't have to, but part of fun car ownership for me is knowing about my car, how it works, how to fix it, and making sure it runs like clockwork
That is probably why for me, the perfect car will be a TVR. It has everything it needs, and very little that it doesn't, making it probably very easy to understand and get to grips with
Dave
300bhp/ton said:
Op- have you actually considered living in the real Wolrd?
I have considered it, but decided against it.I'm not after perfection, just an ownership experience similar to my Cerbera with a proportionally lower cost of ownership vs performance offered by the car in question
skoff said:
300bhp/ton said:
Op- have you actually considered living in the real Wolrd?
I have considered it, but decided against it.I'm not after perfection, just an ownership experience similar to my Cerbera with a proportionally lower cost of ownership vs performance offered by the car in question
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